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Thread: Advanced Sets

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    Default Advanced Sets

    I've been wondering, is there going to be an Advanced Centerline Set or Advanced Trapping Set? If not why is Universal Set the only one with an Advanced version (of interactive sets)? Just curious. I'm bound to get asked this one day in class.

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    Default Re: Advanced Sets

    SHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! I am still learning centerline set! Im chomping at the bit for trapping set don't complicate things for me dang it!! (kidding)
    www.hunterskarate.com

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    Default Re: Advanced Sets

    There is always "Black Belt Finger-Set".
    what about that one???


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    Default Re: Advanced Sets

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother John
    There is always "Black Belt Finger-Set".
    what about that one???


    Your Brother
    John
    Sounds cool John, but do you know Finger Set 2? It gives more fighting dimension than does Finger Set 1.


    Jamie Seabrook
    www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

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    Default Re: Advanced Sets

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook
    Sounds cool John, but do you know Finger Set 2? It gives more fighting dimension than does Finger Set 1.


    Jamie Seabrook
    www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com
    I know finger set II and could show him probably...so much to learn though and seeing black belt finger set I am probably more partial to learning it right now myself being that finger set II is outside the AKKI curriculum.
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    Default Re: Advanced Sets

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook
    Sounds cool John, but do you know Finger Set 2? It gives more fighting dimension than does Finger Set 1.


    Jamie Seabrook
    www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com
    As Brian said, it's not a part of the curriculum that we do. The AKKI "Black Belt Finger Set" is not a 're-working', revamp or renamed finger set 2, it's its own creature.
    As Cloak13 was mentioning these other sets (Center-line and trapping) that don't exist in "EPAK", and this thread is in the "Parker-Mills" section, that we were discussing what is found in the AKKI curriculum.

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    Default Re: Advanced Sets

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook
    Sounds cool John, but do you know Finger Set 2? It gives more fighting dimension than does Finger Set 1.


    Jamie Seabrook
    www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com
    Actually the Black Belt version of the AKKI finger set incorporates the elements of both EPAK Finger Sets 1 & 2.

    Also I am curious about what you mean by "fighting dimension." Could you explain this a little more?

    Thanks for the discussion!!!

    John

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    Alan J. is offline
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    Default Re: Advanced Sets

    Cloak,
    To my knowledge, there will be no level 2 of trapping or centerline. Universal had two levels as there was more material to put into it into one so Mr. Mills broke it down more. I will say never count it out though. I think where things stand now, I would be surprised if he approached it at this time.
    Where the levels rise to 2 and 3 for that matter is in the ability to use weapons with them and the sheer ability to graft in and out of each one. Also too remember to pick up the angle is primary, everything then is gravy so to speak. The sets teach you how to do just that. They are the bridge to your techniques. They also have many free style techniques in them. The free style techniques were taught to me years ago as the bridge between the gap/dimensons of contact and your techniques.
    Start using the sets as your precurser to the technique. I know you do that already to some extent but think more about it and I think you might find it will open many new doors of thinking and application.
    The two person AKKI sets are live drills, constant interaction. There is nothing static about them. We learn to ride, jam, roll, intercept, counter,and check using lead hand and rear hand interchangably. What better way to get a sense and feel of real timing?
    Hope this makes sense.
    Alan
    ps. Sorry to interrupt the question Fastmover had for Jamie. Not trying to disrupt anything.

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    Default Re: Advanced Sets

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother John
    As Brian said, it's not a part of the curriculum that we do. The AKKI "Black Belt Finger Set" is not a 're-working', revamp or renamed finger set 2, it's its own creature.
    As Cloak13 was mentioning these other sets (Center-line and trapping) that don't exist in "EPAK", and this thread is in the "Parker-Mills" section, that we were discussing what is found in the AKKI curriculum.

    Your Brother
    John
    John,
    I beg to differ that centerline set, and universal set do not exist in the EPAK system and I'm positive if I've seen your "trapping set" I can tell you where that came from as well. Centerline set the simultaneous blocks and strikes from
    Calming the storm(left and right side)
    Detour from doom (left and right side)
    Glancing Wing (left and right side)
    These are just a couple of techniques to name a few. And if you really want to get to the chase the drill format you teach is a variant from Jun Fan Gung Fu know as Ung Moon (The five Gates) which I'm sure Parker working with Bruce Lee obtained the motion and concept. Seeing as I have a background in this system I feel qualified to comment. Look up Ron Balicki Jun Fan training videos and see for yourself.

    Universal set - The blending of pass,parry,punch or counter taken from the Filipino martial arts of Kali, Escrima, and Arnis. Utilizing punches,chops, elbows, highline, lowline etc. Know in some systems as Tapi-Tapi,Hubud Lubud,Segang Labo, Sinawalli Boxing etc. The same motion found in many of our techniques Dance of Darkness (double out parries found after the double in parries) Look to the motion found in Form 4 of EPAK you'll see it there. Hunter you should know this stuff.

    Club set-Basic beginner Sinawalli found in the FMA Look into any FMA school or video. The figure eight pattern is found in EPAK which everyone knows all Advanced EPAK is based off of the figure eight pattern utilizing one hand, to both hands, to the footwork.

    Dexterity Knife set- Another FMA training tool. Look into James Keating or actually my friend Jbuggs at the movies he has a nice clip of James Keating a FMA practitioner demonstrating the concept.

    So in all honesty John nothing you are teaching and/or learning is revolutionary, evolutionary etc. If you're saying mixing FMA,Wing Chun, Jun Fan Gung Fu is evolution then Huk has been doing that for years from his background with his brother and training with Guro Dan Inosanto, the only difference is he doesn't rename it and call it new or better just a different way of training.

    So for you to say that none of this exist in EPAK and it solely exist in the AKKI is incorrect.



    Regards


    Craig Dishmon
    Kenpo-Parker/Planas Lineage
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    Remy Presas Arnis
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    A true Martial Artist is not one who fears change,but causes it to happen!
    -Ed Parker

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    Default Re: Advanced Sets

    Quote Originally Posted by Fastmover
    Actually the Black Belt version of the AKKI finger set incorporates the elements of both EPAK Finger Sets 1 & 2.

    Also I am curious about what you mean by "fighting dimension." Could you explain this a little more?

    Thanks for the discussion!!!

    John
    All I meant is that in Finger Set 2, we are moving (ie. advancing and retreating on our attacker unlike in Finger Set 1 where we remain in a horse stance).

    Jamie Seabrook
    www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

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    Default Re: Advanced Sets

    Quote Originally Posted by JEDISHADOW
    So for you to say that none of this exist in EPAK and it solely exist in the AKKI is incorrect.
    Hey Craig,

    Long time no talk, hope all is well. I saw your post and wanted to quickly comment on it. I agree with you that these motions exist in the EPAK system and other systems. There is only so many ways to parry a punch, there are only so many ways to execute a right vertical punch to the face while performing a left extended block to the arm. What I find interesting and different in the AKKI material is the packaging and presentation. I like that certain motions are isolated and extracted and performed over and over again through out the sets. I love that programming type motion and have found it rather useful on multiple occasions :-)

    So are we teaching stuff that no one else is teaching, probably not. But for me and many other students I've worked with it is not the material taught but the method of delivery for that information. How it is placed throughout the curriculum, where emphasis is, where motions are grouped, etc...

    I'm not sure if I'm being clear in what exactly I'm saying so to summarize:

    1. I agree that the AKKI is not the only group doing these types of training nor do they have a magical concepts that others do not

    2. I find the major difference between the AKKI and other martial arts I've studied to be the way the material is presented. The AKKI material to me just seems to be more of a clear map to proficiency focusing on groups of gross motor skills and keying those to fine motor quality motion. Can this be achieved elsewhere, probably, but for me the AKKI was the first place this concept clicked.

    I know when I was out there this summer we talked about the sets and all that good stuff and I believe even then we discussed the simularities between Universal Set and Mr. Whitson's CounterPoint material. I'm not sure if the other AKKI gentleman will agree with me here on this but these are just my thoughts on it.

    One final note, I do want to differenciate what I'm talking about here is how basics are grouped together. I will say that I am not talking about the execution of basics.

    Tim Kulp
    Westminster, MD

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    Default Re: Advanced Sets

    Excellent points and explanation Tim!!!
    I agree.

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    John
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    Default Re: Advanced Sets

    Tim,

    I agree some of what what Mills does is good stuff and he blends it well within the AKKI system. Hell like I said Huk has been blending the motion of the FMA, Kenpo etc for years and teaching us but he will tell you where it comes from and why it blends well within the system. I do have to disagree that your sets in the form they are drilled are from motion extractions from the EPAK system, but rather that he recognized that the drills other systems utilize have key motion found in Kenpo. I'm in no way knocking the AKKI system for methods in which you train but I truly think one should give credit where it is due and say this drill is derived from FMA or Wing Chun etc. You are correct as Huk says there are only so many ways to kick, punch and move and most only have 2 hands and 2 feet so yes motion will overlap in many systems and styles but when the drill is blatantly obvious to those of us that train in other systems then it raises an eyebrow when credit is taken in the form of creation. maybe I mis-read John's post but I took it as he was stating that what the AKKI teaches doesn't exist in the AKKI. It's funny through all of different factions, organizations, systems etc of American Kenpo too many get caught up in which way they think is better. First these observations are solely based on opinion and most important without EPAK none of what we debate about would exist. This is something many forget and really need to keep in the back of their minds when comparing methods. I've seen comments float back and forth stating that AKKI colored belts move better than EPAK colored belts and/or black belts. To whom stated this what evidence do you have to support this statement? How do you determine what's better or not? Most importantly who made you the authority on motion? This is based on solely on opinion because let me tell you Tim isn't the only AKKI person I've been on the mat with or seen, and I have seen some good ones and seen my fair share of whom I think are bad ones. And if needed I can tell you why my opinion of them stands as it does. So for whomever made that statement you may want to grab the mat with a few more EPAK guys before making such a statement. All in all is it a big deal what we all think about the methods or systems we choose to train or defend. No. Is this anything to loose sleep over? No. Now that you have a satellite school in Dallas I told Hunter when he makes his way down let me know I'll make a weekend of it and come on through. Thats for you as well Tim, looking forward to sharing information and methods.


    Craig Dishmon
    Kenpo-Parker/Planas Lineage
    Pekiti-Tirsia- McGrath/Whitson Lineage
    Remy Presas Arnis
    THE DIRTY BOYZ
    A true Martial Artist is not one who fears change, but causes it to happen!
    -Ed Parker

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    Default Re: Advanced Sets

    Quote Originally Posted by JEDISHADOW
    I've seen comments float back and forth stating that AKKI colored belts move better than EPAK colored belts and/or black belts.


    Craig,

    I will definately stop by next time I'm adventuring in San Antonio. The thing I remember most about that trip besides the good Kenpo-times was the amazing food. I think I actually broke my appetite down there.

    I believe I miss read your original post and see now what you are saying. I'm not sure where certain drills and such are from so I can't really comment on that. Sadly I'm not as in touch with the AKKI history and development history as I wish I was.

    Definately want to comment on the section I extracted in the quote though. I agree with Craig that such a statement is a gross over generalization. It takes a combination of student's dedication (not ability) and curriculum to have quality practicioner. You can have a poor AKKI-ist and a great TaiJitsu-ist. (TaiJitsu is kind of the laughing stock around my area) Just depends how much work each student puts into their training. I do believe it is easier to be better when you have a great curriculum and knowledgable instructors guiding you.

    Tim Kulp
    Westminster, MD

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    Default Re: Advanced Sets

    Quote Originally Posted by JEDISHADOW

    I've seen comments float back and forth stating that AKKI colored belts move better than EPAK colored belts and/or black belts. To whom stated this what evidence do you have to support this statement? How do you determine what's better or not? Most importantly who made you the authority on motion? This is based on solely on opinion because let me tell you Tim isn't the only AKKI person I've been on the mat with or seen, and I have seen some good ones and seen my fair share of whom I think are bad ones.
    Hey Craig,

    I think you made some valid questions. The answer is that when someone says that something is better, we must realize that it is a subjective statement. It is a truth to the commenter; however, it is not necessarily a truth for the listener. Each person has their own standards and can not be dismissed as just because someone else has a different opinion. That is the reason why advertisers can not be sued when they say their product is better than another. In kenpo, their are opinions on who should have been the successor to Mr. Parker, but again these are all opinions. Likewise, we could have a debate on which branch of the military is the best, who makes the best hamburger, fishing lure, gi, etc. Finding out which is best can make for great discussion, but when it comes right down to it, everyone's opinion is merely subjective because different people will have different opinions on why it is best.

    I can understand your frustration with some of the comments that have been made over several website discussion boards. Some are pretty unreasonable, but again, it is merely a subjective truth based on the particular groups beliefs.

    I will say that I, myself, have made a comment in the past comparing AKKI purple belts that I have seen compared to a particular black belt; however, realize that it is merely a subjective statement for this particular case and not an all-encompassing comment. I can tell you all the reasons I believe it is true, but until you agree with my reasoning, it is not true for you.

    So when someone says that someone else's kenpo is better or more innovative, there is rarely going to be any evidence that will suffice everyone. Afterall, for the most part, we are talking about subjective opinions. And for some reason people get frustrated with each other when their opinions differ.

    I don't know it if I added to this conversation, but I feel better now.

    Talk to you later,

    Joseph

    p.s. It would be BETTER if you chose a different color for your font. lol
    Last edited by karateminister; 10-25-2005 at 06:00 PM.

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    Default Re: Advanced Sets

    Quote Originally Posted by JEDISHADOW
    I've seen comments float back and forth stating that AKKI colored belts move better than EPAK colored belts and/or black belts. To whom stated this what evidence do you have to support this statement? How do you determine what's better or not? Most importantly who made you the authority on motion? This is based on solely on opinion because let me tell you Tim isn't the only AKKI person I've been on the mat with or seen, and I have seen some good ones and seen my fair share of whom I think are bad ones. And if needed I can tell you why my opinion of them stands as it does. So for whomever made that statement you may want to grab the mat with a few more EPAK guys before making such a statement.

    Craig Dishmon
    Hey Craig-
    I've not had the honor of meeting you myself, but it's pretty cool that you've opened your door/mind and worked w/some of us AKKI folks!

    as for what I said concerning these AKKI sets not existing in EPAK. I really don't think they do, not as their own sets. I agree, there is motion from w/in EPAK techniques that move like certain portions of our sets do. I'm not going to argue against that idea. But they are placed together into these sets, and as such.... these sets don't exist in EPAK. But I guess you could "reverse-engineer" these sets and find the techniques that have the same or similar motion....but that's different. It'd be a little bit like saying that "Mobey Dick" is in the Bible. Many of the words found in Mobey Dick are also found in the King James version of the Bible. Yes. But it doesn't mean that Mobey Dick is IN the Bible. (It's not an exact analogy, but I think it's kinda close) A better analogy might be that Form II is "IN" form IV, they have all the same stances, same blocks, same punches/kicks...etc., just in a different combination.
    See what I'm saying?

    As to any of our sets/drills...etc., being very similar to things found in other systems like Wing-Chun, Jeet Kune Do or one of the Philipino styles....I really can't comment. I just don't know them. If so....ok. If you think about it, Mr. Parker really learned from a Great number of people and had lots of contact with people from many unique styles. I think it's common knowledge that he gleened a great deal from his experience with other styles. ((I think you said something to this effect previous in this thread)) As Mr. Parker was Mr. Mills' instructor...it kinda stands to reason that they'd have a similar approach to this. Did Mr. Parker say "I got this idea/twist/tech from XYZ style?" ?? If he did, I don't recall hearing of it. (doesn't mean he didn't) But that's neither here nor there., we like what we are learning under Mr. Mills. Sometimes that comes with a great deal of zealousness. Zeal can be good, but sometimes it translates to strong bias or even an offensive chest puffing when others come across it. Which brings me to my next point:

    Please read the part of your reply that I coppied here in this one:
    It's like you are getting after someone (don't know who) and challenging them on points that they may have said, sometime, somewhere else. I don't think anyone here in this thread is saying them. It's like you came equiped with your own argument and are taking offense at words that you brought into this thread yourself. Probably not a great way to start up a conversation I'd think.

    If you perceive this way of thinking and think that there's a predominant "We are better than you are" attitude in the AKKI....then maybe you could make your own thread about it, bring it up and ask AKKI people about this sentiment. Maybe it'd go further, especially if you stated it not so much as a challenge, but in the interest of trying to see who we really are, what we really think and why. Lord knows I've got no problem telling you or anyone what I think. Heck....my main problem is NOT talking. Ha!!!

    Personally: I think that we (those in the AKKI and those in the non-AKKI Kenpo systems) have MUCH more in common than we generally think. Our approaches are different, but there's a commonality that runs throughout.
    But I'm idealistic like that.

    Your Brother
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    Alan J. is offline
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    Default Re: Advanced Sets

    Maybe to help in some understanding where the sets came from - easy. Mr. Parker and his motion. Mr. Mills has never studied FMA or Kung Fu but he knows how they move and familiar of their intent. Largely from the influence of Mr. Parker. Mr. Parker knew all those guys and traded ideas and so forth. It came later in his life that Mr. Parker really found what he was looking for and worked at, motion that that was universal, true, and teachable. This of course is my opinion. All the motion in all our interactive sets (which EPAK has none of them) are in the IKKA curriculum. There is some motion made up of specific combinations that are exclusive to the AKKI but taken individually, you will recognize it.

    The AKKI response is simple - Mr. Mills saw a need and filled it. And has continued to fill it. Mr. Mills has some students that trained in other styles for sure. Some ideas have sparked a way of thinking that has led to some drills but with AKKI motion. Bruce lee took what he could from Dan Inosanto after he left Mr. Parker which is no secret and Bruce would have been dumb to not tap that resource. He made everything his motion and execution which is why people claim that he was the originator of this or that but a great collector of inforamtion and able to translate to fit what he was doing and make it his own. Mr. Parker did the same thing.

    As far as knife dexterity set, it is patterned off of stance set one and two. Watching James Keating do his thing is far from how we move or even the sequence. Is he the only one who has that as well? I've seen lots of guys flip the knife so on and so forth. To infer that he influenced our dexterity is quite a bit off. If this is about origination then this could go one forever with no real evidence as to who or what. Not giving credit?
    Mr. Mills has been swinging and flipping a gun and knife in his old west shoot em' up shows since the mid 70's. Plus the knife dexterity set was developed when we were still in the IKKA before information and exposure flowed like it does now.

    What he learned from the knife and how to handle it came from Mr. Parker. Watching Mr. Parker handle the knife as well as Mr. Mills has the original manuscript of Mr. Parker's book that never came to naught - "How to Speak with a Knife". It was givin as a gift from Larry Kongiaka (Mr. Parker's son-in-law) 10 or so years ago. I've seen some of it with my own eyes in Mr. Parker's handwriting.

    The Universal set may have similarities but each movement and combinations are in EPAK from techniques or freestyle. It's all shared to some extent with other systems. Taking directly and grafting like Zach Whitson does is not what we've done with the exception of Mr. Parker. Others have argued extensively that our motion is already in EPAK and it's nothing new. Right to a point. Then why are they not taking what's in there and doing what we've done? Is the journals it? See same old argument.
    Mr. Mills also learned how to box from Gene Fullmer directly - middleweight champ of the world in the 50's. Some of our techniques are influenced by his thinking of moving and hitting but much of that is in EPAK somewhere as well. Between Mr. Parker, Gene Fullmer, FBI (Hoover days from Mr. Mills' dad being an old time Las Vegas agent) Fast Draw Shooting, and many years of practical experience, the AKKI motion and how we execute is derived from these sources.
    Hope that helps,
    Alan

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