Page 1 of 12 12311 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 226

Thread: Devil's Advocate

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Wichita, Kansas, United States
    Posts
    2,467
    Thanks
    2,019
    Thanked 1,277 Times in 709 Posts

    Default Devil's Advocate

    Recently, here on the "Parker - Mills: Lineage" section we had a discussion going on in which we were discussing the fact that we consider what we do to be an evolved form of American Kenpo Karate; yet we all know that there are a many who feel that this idea of "innovation or evolution" w/in Kenpo is either unsubstantiated, unwarranted or unnessesary, ego stroking, delusional 'group-mind' ... or any combination of the above. Those who disagree like this have brought into question many things that we may have come to take for granted OR maybe there are some in the AKKI that also question why such "innovations" and "evolutions" were needed in the first place. I think it's very true that if you want to find out as much as you can about something you need to do two things:
    1. You need to go back to where it began and check out what caused it to be. In this case you'd probably need to go back to the very beginning of Mr. Mills student/teacher relationship with Mr. Parker, then look forward from there to 1997-98.

    2. You need to put it under the stcrutiny of doubt, disbelief and even opposition. In philosophy this is roughly what the "Cartesian Method" is all about. Here's a quick synopsis of what the Cartesian Method is:


    The Laws of the Cartesian Method

    The laws of the Cartesian method are four:


    • Accept nothing as true which is not clear and distinct;
    • Analyze a problem into its parts and discuss it part by part;
    • Arrange thoughts from simple to complex as the order of study;
    • Enumerations must be full and complete and nothing must be omitted.
    I got this from here:
    http://radicalacademy.com/adiphilrationalism.htm
    The thing it leaves out is his beginning hypothosis of doubt: Doubt everything until you can construct such an argument for it that it MUST be true.

    I am NOT saying that we need to follow the Cartesian Method (if we did, some may bring us to task for not sticking to it in strict academic fasion), or that anyone could follow it to a perfect conclusion....but it's a decent model, a way to begin.
    Another starting place would be the "Socratic Method", but I'm not sure it'd work out on a forum like this: Look here if you are interested in finding out more:
    http://www.garlikov.com/Soc_Meth.html

    The one thing that's needed in this is an antagonist, someone to do the doubting and to try to oppose the main premise in the first place. OR: for the Socratic Method, someone to begin the string of questions, but base them on these common and reaccuring oppositional themes that get chucked at us.

    Believe it or not, even though those who are our most ardent antagonists can get annoying or bothersome...if not rude, still... when you come to defend a thing or produce a "This is why" argument for what you do....you come to understand it better.
    Like one of my favorite "thinkers" once said concerning his detractors: "We support ourselves upon that which resists".
    It's also sort of like Mr. Parker's "3 Points of View": Us, the Attacker and the on-looker. Well, we need to consider THIS in light of all three as well.

    So what I propose is that in a way, this is helpful and healthy so I think that we should begin a dialogue here, that we begin with the most frequent "doubts" or oppositional statements that our detractors make and try to run with it from there. Rationally, no emotion. That we construct arguments FOR what we do. Then... challenge those defenses, until nothing is left. (Notice: that's not an argument Against what anyone elese does... with the simple exception of straight EPAK as it existed in 1991...as that's our OWN roots, which is nothing more nor less than where we came from. In describing where we are going and why we are going there we Can NOT excape discussing where we came from and why we Left there. If there are people working "straight EPAK" out here in Kenpo-land that have a problem with us bringing up reasons why we feel that what we are doing now is better or more 'evoloved' than what they are doing....PLEASE: remember, they are our roots too. We have a world of respect for it and for those who do it. One does not lead a strong home when one devalues one's ancestors. AND: Note... we aren't going to be discussing YOU....but us, back then.)

    I don't see any reason why we need to name our detractors specifically or groups that aren't a part of who we are now or who we were before. If we do (to quote a line from a Guns & Roses song, ...and a movie I think) "Then you get what we had here last week... which is the way he wants it....well, he gets it.
    I don't like this, any more than you men....."
    ((10 points if you name the song, 20 for the movie the quote originally came from))

    The list of points that Mr. Robertson drew up is a decent starting place, but I know we can move beyond that....
    What do you guys (gals?) think? What are your thoughts on this?
    Then maybe we can address this whole thing w/out anything getting ugly or nasty.
    Lemme know what you think.

    Your Brother
    John

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    ((if you use "FaceBook", look me up there by name))
    "Striving for success without hard work is like trying to harvest where you haven't planted"
    ~ David Bly

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    No. CAlifornia
    Posts
    140
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts

    Talking Re: Devil's Advocate

    Hi John,

    I would like to say, I believe your group is doing exactly what the late SGMEP would want you to do. He was changing and INVENTING then reinventing.

    When he finally did come to what he thought was what he wanted and where he was going with it, CHANGED the name to EPAK.

    Now based on that and how the late SGMEP did it, I would think that the name should be changed to PMAK.

    If you are going to tango, you tango, not tingo or tongo. If you want to freestyle that is fine, but you still practice tango, and all that makes up tango.
    When you want to go into spontaneity (freestyle) go for it but don't call it tango. (in the group I study with we call it conception, an idea at the exact moment needed, based on all the training you are doing and the knowledge you have regarding it).

    AK evolved from a small Island in the Pacific to the mainland and then went into a major starburst of various interpretations of the defense system called Kenpo.
    The name was changed many times, some added Jr. ( as in staying the same with the name but another person interpeting it) and others changed the name, Tracy, EPAK, Kajukenbo to name just a few.

    The major players in Kenpo are/were... Mitose, Chow, Parker, Tracy.

    Then came the starburst.

    Now we have many players. That is great, just acknowledge that you have changed the style and when you do that change the name.

    Just a view that is in the minority, (on this lineage site).

    Regards, Gary

  3. #3
    phyziksdoc is offline
    KenpoTalk
    White Belt
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Richmond, KY
    Posts
    11
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default Re: Devil's Advocate

    Just a quick reply as it is getting late here in Kentucky... the song is Civil War and the movie is Cool Hand Luke. You can deposit the points in my PayPal account!

    chris kulp
    Richmond, KY

  4. #4
    Alan J. is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Orange Belt
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    108
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 51 Times in 26 Posts

    Default Re: Devil's Advocate

    I don't think Mr. Parker called it Ed Parker Kenpo. Others gave it that name. He called it American Kenpo. EPAK is used to describe which brand is being used so to speak. I wish like heck we could change our name. I wouldn't propose we call it Mills kenpo or even anything with Mills name in it as that is not what he would want. The name should describe what we are doing and continuing to do. If it helps you, Gary, describe what we are, then go ahead with the Mills Kenpo or what have you. Doesn't bother me. But don't get hung on us not changing our patches to reflect what you may suggest. Nice as it may be, it's kinda locked in. But is American Kenpo still at our base ? Yes. So I see nothing wrong with the AKKI name. It's still American Kenpo.

    Question? What would one call what Mr. Parker did in the 1960's?We all know it changed quite a bit from decade to decade. I still say American Kenpo. I think American Kenpo is based off the genious and innovative thinking of Mr. Parker and was always in a state of flux. So the name American Kenpo to me means something innovative, evolving, changing, learning, perpetual. I think the "American" part reflects our efforts collectively in America, our social fabric and how whe have changed as a country/society/culture over the years. The Kenpo part was/is the reflection of what he (Parker) believed it the motion originally stemmed from and it's style of emphasis.
    I'll get to John's question later but I just wanted to address some of what you were mentioning Gary.
    Alan

  5. #5
    Fastmover is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Yellow Belt
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Dallas/Fort Worth
    Posts
    66
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts

    Default Re: Devil's Advocate

    From what I understand Mr. Parker changed his system a couple of times through the years. Something like four times? I will call it for the lack of better terms:

    1960's version

    1970's version

    1980's version

    Starting to see a trend? What is interesting to note is the many videos of Mr. Parker moving through these years. As he progressed it almost didnt look like the same system. As his system changed, so did the level of his and his students motion. Mr. Parker is a good example of the higher proficiency through innovation concept.

    Question is why did Mr. Parker change the system through the years? Could it be his increased understanding of the PRINCIPLES, CONCEPTS, AND THEORIES of Kenpo lead him to redevelope the system to generate a much more fruitful return on training time? I think so!!

    I think Mr. Parker was a great engineer of motion and a great thinker. I also think he laid the ground work for others to do the same. With a good understanding of the principles of Kenpo, I think someone could continue with advancing the proficiency of those learning.

    The principles of Kenpo could also be used as a blueprint to develope a knife system, club system, and a gound fighting system. There are many that claim that Kenpo already contains the elements, and after years of study and reading between the lines one might find some tricks. However Mr. Mills has gone a giant step further, he has developed these ideas into the set curricullum one must learn in order to advance through the ranks.

    One other great example, Mr. Mills has used the principles of Kenpo to develope better offensive techniques. Granted EPAK has the offensive B1a, etc ideas of motion; however the AKKI offensive techniques not only include EPAK freestyle type motion, it is much improved. The techniques are designed to work against a resisting and/or blocking opponent and trained in this manner. These techniques were also designed to allow one to weave/ blend their offensive tech with defensive tech at a much quicker rate. Trapping Set in my mind was developed to re-enforce and develope the proficiency of the student to become more spontaneous with a resisting opponent. It; along with Centerline and Universal Set, is much more suited for developing skill then the "old school" EPAK two man set.

    This would be a couple of specific example of what Mills is doing that is innovative within the Kenpo community. From what I have seen he simply does not want to rest with what was given to him. He is constantly analyzing ideas to leave Kenpo better then he found it. He is simply following Mr. Parkers foot steps.

    Just my Thoughts.........

    John

  6. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Fastmover For This Useful Post:

    godai (03-21-2015),John M. La Tourrette (04-25-2007)

  7. #6
    CaptShady Guest

    Default Re: Devil's Advocate

    I think it's important to note that in each version, there were those that were too focused, narrow-minded, or whatever reason ... to continue and follow the evolution. Some even held to their version and berated those in evolved versions. Was his first name Mike? Tracy comes to mind.

  8. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Riverside CA
    Posts
    38
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default Re: Devil's Advocate

    Quote Originally Posted by Fastmover
    From what I understand Mr. Parker changed his system a couple of times through the years. Something like four times? I will call it for the lack of better terms:

    1960's version

    1970's version

    1980's version

    Starting to see a trend? What is interesting to note is the many videos of Mr. Parker moving through these years. As he progressed it almost didnt look like the same system. As his system changed, so did the level of his and his students motion. Mr. Parker is a good example of the higher proficiency through innovation concept.

    Question is why did Mr. Parker change the system through the years? Could it be his increased understanding of the PRINCIPLES, CONCEPTS, AND THEORIES of Kenpo lead him to redevelope the system to generate a much more fruitful return on training time? I think so!!

    I think Mr. Parker was a great engineer of motion and a great thinker. I also think he laid the ground work for others to do the same. With a good understanding of the principles of Kenpo, I think someone could continue with advancing the proficiency of those learning.

    The principles of Kenpo could also be used as a blueprint to develope a knife system, club system, and a gound fighting system. There are many that claim that Kenpo already contains the elements, and after years of study and reading between the lines one might find some tricks. However Mr. Mills has gone a giant step further, he has developed these ideas into the set curricullum one must learn in order to advance through the ranks.

    One other great example, Mr. Mills has used the principles of Kenpo to develope better offensive techniques. Granted EPAK has the offensive B1a, etc ideas of motion; however the AKKI offensive techniques not only include EPAK freestyle type motion, it is much improved. The techniques are designed to work against a resisting and/or blocking opponent and trained in this manner. These techniques were also designed to allow one to weave/ blend their offensive tech with defensive tech at a much quicker rate. Trapping Set in my mind was developed to re-enforce and develope the proficiency of the student to become more spontaneous with a resisting opponent. It; along with Centerline and Universal Set, is much more suited for developing skill then the "old school" EPAK two man set.

    This would be a couple of specific example of what Mills is doing that is innovative within the Kenpo community. From what I have seen he simply does not want to rest with what was given to him. He is constantly analyzing ideas to leave Kenpo better then he found it. He is simply following Mr. Parkers foot steps.

    Just my Thoughts.........

    John
    Hmm, did you or Mr. Mills train with Parker during those years? I have talked to many that have, and I've even got some old film footage of some of those people doing the techs and forms from the early 70's, and surprisingly enough, they haven't changed, nor were any deleted.

    So what are you saying John?


    Going offensive with Kenpo, and you need NEW techs to do that in the AKKI?


    Clyde

  9. #8
    CaptShady Guest

    Default Re: Devil's Advocate

    Quote Originally Posted by kenpoprofessor
    Hmm, did you or Mr. Mills train with Parker during those years? I have talked to many that have, and I've even got some old film footage of some of those people doing the techs and forms from the early 70's, and surprisingly enough, they haven't changed, nor were any deleted.
    Really? So the tracy's system, as taught by Mr Parker to the Tracy brothers, has only 155 techniques?

  10. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Wichita, Kansas, United States
    Posts
    2,467
    Thanks
    2,019
    Thanked 1,277 Times in 709 Posts

    Default Re: Devil's Advocate

    Please let me clarify what I was wanting to address in creating this thread:
    I was hoping to spark a discussion of the AKKI's method's and philosophies in which AKKI practitioners could elaborate on each, by first questioning....and answering, then questioning the answer....and answering that....
    Sort of a process for fleshing things out.
    It's not easy, it's a little hard to do....
    but I wasn't inviting non-AKKI people to come in an start questioning, There's TONS of threads in many forums where that's already been done ad Nauseum. I was hoping to involve AKKI people in a discussion of the AKKI.

    See?
    Clyde: maybe if you'd like to continue with your line of thought on the AKKI, you could rehash one of your many other threads on Martial Talk or KenpoNet or whatever.

    thoughts?

    Your Brother
    John
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    ((if you use "FaceBook", look me up there by name))
    "Striving for success without hard work is like trying to harvest where you haven't planted"
    ~ David Bly

  11. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    No. CAlifornia
    Posts
    140
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts

    Talking Re: Devil's Advocate

    Hi John and Alan J,

    I can understand where you are going, and also coming from, really. The reason I was throwing in some thought on the name change is.

    I have been studing Filipino Martial Arts. Physcial and Historical, many of the various systems and styles. Hundreds of variations, but in essence the same.
    The thing is when the person studing under a certain system breaks out and starts teaching, (no longer under the wing) he is then free to name the system he does, but with a slight tweek in the name. (in fact it is pretty much mandatory).

    Still showing respect from where it came from but with a new name to differentiate it, everyone will somehow add a different flavor.

    Now if you inherit the system different cup of tea. You are almost obliged to not change it one bit. Kind of like KFC secret recipe not changed for 50 years.

    Back to evolving from one thing to another in Ed Parkers Kenpo. (infinite Insight books) He states in the first one that it was he had to use a name that was already known in America trying to sell the public on his Kenpo-AK, is why he added Karate into the name strickly Commercial thinking. Business, to make money. No reason other than that (and he removed it very quickly) as soon as he had a following.

    So anyway that was the reason for my input. I will observe an try not to interfere with your thread, but last observation, to say it has evolved to being better, now that is an opinion. There inlies the rub.

    As I said earlier I believe your group is doing exactly like SGMEP would have wanted.

    Regards, Gary

  12. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    No. CAlifornia
    Posts
    140
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts

    Talking Re: Devil's Advocate

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptShady
    Really? So the tracy's system, as taught by Mr Parker to the Tracy brothers, has only 155 techniques?
    Hi CaptShady,

    Nope.

    Tracy changed when he found out more History and realized that SGMEP down sized. When he found more about Mitose he grew from there.

    He felt the stuff he got from EP was like the first step into a bigger realm, more history was avaliable and he then realized, that what EP was teaching was just one slice of the pie.

    History has shown that he was right, and now we have come 50 years and still learning.

    Part of Kosho training is to learn about history and not just the physcial application. Kind of like going to Wikipidia and learning about history, versus just reading the New and Old Testement (bible), or the Koran, or the book of Mormon.

    No slight intended only relaying my way of telling the story. The Late SGMEP and Tracy Brothers were and still are Mormon. (reason for the insert).

    My preference to education is from many sources of material, ie, an Encyclopedia or many of them.

    Regards, Gary

  13. #12
    CaptShady Guest

    Default Re: Devil's Advocate

    But how many techniques were taught?

    From day 1, there were 155 techniques?

  14. #13
    The Kai's Avatar
    The Kai is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. Orange Belt
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    172
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post

    Default Re: Devil's Advocate

    Exceept that the tracy's were a product of parker. The idea that leaving parker and finding a wider world of kenoo, is about as true as alice steppingh trough the looking glass

  15. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    No. CAlifornia
    Posts
    140
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts

    Talking Re: Devil's Advocate

    Quote Originally Posted by The Kai
    Exceept that the tracy's were a product of parker. The idea that leaving parker and finding a wider world of kenoo, is about as true as alice steppingh trough the looking glass
    Hi Kai,

    If you want to talk to me like that, do so in a pm, please don't have this closed down also.

    You are very much mistaken with what you are saying. Like I said they discovered much more than just "kenpo" as Parker showed it and that is the truth. It is now Tracy Kenpo and that is one of the reasons I advocate changing the name when you change a system.

    Ed Parker was the ante room to the main vault of what else was ahead. History was in the making and it is that simple.
    Does not make one better, just how Tracy grew away from Parker.

    Go to San Jose Kenpo and read the roots and what they now teach.

    Regards, Gary
    Last edited by Gary A Brewer; 07-11-2005 at 03:47 PM.

  16. #15
    The Kai's Avatar
    The Kai is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. Orange Belt
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    172
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post

    Default Re: Devil's Advocate

    Tracy's kenpo= Parker's kenpo.


    Gary, thank you the reminder that history rewrites itself

  17. #16
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    No. CAlifornia
    Posts
    140
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts

    Talking Re: Devil's Advocate

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptShady
    But how many techniques were taught?

    From day 1, there were 155 techniques?
    Hi CaptShady,

    We are really off the topic so I will just say this and no more regarding Tracy and Parker.

    Your first statement is misleading as you are using the word 'has' not 'had'.

    So from what I believe you are getting at regarding this topic about Mills and Parker is, Tracy grew away from the original 155 and so that is what Mills is doing. If that is what you are implying? Then he (PM) should change the name as Tracy did.

    Regards, Gary

  18. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Wichita, Kansas, United States
    Posts
    2,467
    Thanks
    2,019
    Thanked 1,277 Times in 709 Posts

    Default Re: Devil's Advocate

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary A Brewer
    Then he (PM) should change the name as Tracy did.

    Regards, Gary
    Ok....
    But Mr. Tracy doesn't set 'precedent' for others, just because he thought this was appropriate doesn't automatically mean others should as well. It's just what he preferred.
    Believe me, Mr. Mills doesn't follow Mr. Tracy's lead in any manner.


    What I'm worried about is this thread being killed or hijacked before it even gets off the ground. There IS a Tracy's section here.

    Your Brother
    John
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    ((if you use "FaceBook", look me up there by name))
    "Striving for success without hard work is like trying to harvest where you haven't planted"
    ~ David Bly

  19. #18
    CaptShady Guest

    Default Re: Devil's Advocate

    Actually, the way I heard it was that at one point, there were only 32 complete techniques to get to black under Mr Parker. Some time later, there EVOLVED a 154(5) technique system. I even heard there were techniques like "Intellectual Departure" and 2 others that were once in the system, and then evolved out of the system. If there was no change, then how did the rumors get started and believed by so many?

  20. #19
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    No. CAlifornia
    Posts
    140
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts

    Talking Re: Devil's Advocate

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother John
    Ok....
    But Mr. Tracy doesn't set 'precedent' for others, just because he thought this was appropriate doesn't automatically mean others should as well. It's just what he preferred.
    Believe me, Mr. Mills doesn't follow Mr. Tracy's lead in any manner.


    What I'm worried about is this thread being killed or hijacked before it even gets off the ground. There IS a Tracy's section here.

    Your Brother
    John

    Hi John,

    Yes, you are correct regarding your whole reply. Just used him as an observation.
    You should do what you feel is the best for your group, definitly.

    I will bow out and observe for now, thanks for decent replies.

    Regards, Gary

  21. #20
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    London, ON
    Posts
    1,601
    Thanks
    64
    Thanked 209 Times in 134 Posts

    Cool Re: Devil's Advocate

    Quote Originally Posted by The Kai
    Tracy's kenpo= Parker's kenpo.


    Gary, thank you the reminder that history rewrites itself
    Hold on a minute.

    Let's not forget that what the Tracy's learned from Ed Parker was what Mr. Parker was teaching in that time period.

    Several important contributions to his system (ie. variable expansions, drills, concepts & principles) were made over the last 2+ decades of his life, which the Tracy's were not a part of. As such, Tracy's Kenpo is far different than the American Kenpo system practiced today.

    Jamie Seabrook
    www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

Page 1 of 12 12311 ... LastLast

Remove Ads

Sponsored Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)