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Thread: Krav Maga

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    Default Krav Maga

    Does this stuff look like it's borrowed a few Kenpo moves? I'm not "dissing" it, but it does look like the stuff we've been doing for awhile now. I'm just curious-why not learn Kenpo instead?
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    Talking Re: Krav Maga

    I was thinking the same thing, but if you look at the martial arts it all looks the same. We just do it faster and better then must. A punch is a punch and a kick is a kick.
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    Default Re: Krav Maga

    Quote Originally Posted by SPK,Grasshopper View Post
    I was thinking the same thing, but if you look at the martial arts it all looks the same. We just do it faster and better then must. A punch is a punch and a kick is a kick.
    True enough. I had the saem thoughts about some of the wing chun techniques I've seen.

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    Default Re: Krav Maga

    I think it's easy to see simularities in other arts. Kenpo is about using what works. Therefore, if you see something that obviously works in another style then of course it will look like kenpo!!!
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    Default Re: Krav Maga

    I've heard several people say it's old kenpo.

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    Default Re: Krav Maga

    same here, i just heard it was watered down kenpo :-p

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    Default Re: Krav Maga

    Quote Originally Posted by Roadrunner View Post
    I've heard several people say it's old kenpo.
    I don't know the truth or not about this but it is an interesting idea.

    Check out Jan. black belt...there is an article about another Isreali fighting art. In the article the author (Jim Wagner) talks about taking kenpo in the past.

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    Default Re: Krav Maga

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikael151 View Post
    Does this stuff look like it's borrowed a few Kenpo moves? I'm not "dissing" it, but it does look like the stuff we've been doing for awhile now.
    Absolutely.
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    Default Re: Krav Maga

    Here's a page with some KM clips. Eerie how similar it is.

    http://www.kravmaga.com/video.asp
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Krav Maga

    Krav Maga is definitely exploding everywhere... That is not good or bad but it is the "in" Martial Art. Wasn't there a Jennifer Lopez movie where she learns Krav Maga? That'll do it...

    A gentleman in the town where I live teaches Kenpo and Krav Maga on separate nights. He seems to be doing well and he has students who take one or the other and a few who do both (?)

    I am not sure how in depth the art can be if it was designed in 4 weeks or whatever the time period was.

    I never thought much about the Wing Chun vs Kempo/Kenpo though... hmmm...Excekenpo posts an interesting idea- I am pretty fascinated with Wing Chun, primarily because they train so much "infighting". Up close and personal.

    Anybody have a Krav or Wing Chun background that can shed some light on the similarities or differences?

    Cheers everyone!

    James
    Last edited by Dianhsuhe; 12-15-2006 at 12:42 AM. Reason: fat Fingers
    The above is just my opinion.

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    Default Re: Krav Maga

    My guess is that it's easier to learn than Kenpo.
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    Default Re: Krav Maga

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikael151 View Post
    My guess is that it's easier to learn than Kenpo.
    I'm stepping out on a limb here, but if I'm not mistaken Krav Maga was supposedly developed for the Isreali special forces right? If this is true then I would say it probably is easier to learn with much less time spent on basics and theory. If you are training soldiers don't you want to give them the most effective techniques in the least amount of time? Im sure we have some current or ex forces people here with a more informed opinion?

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    Default Re: Krav Maga

    Quote Originally Posted by execkenpo View Post
    I'm stepping out on a limb here, but if I'm not mistaken Krav Maga was supposedly developed for the Israeli Special forces right? If this is true then I would say it probably is easier to learn with much less time spent on basics and theory. If you are training soldiers don't you want to give them the most effective techniques in the least amount of time? Im sure we have some current or ex forces people here with a more informed opinion?
    In my experience the business of teaching Krav is influenced by who they have recruited as teachers. Clearly there is no large pool of out-of-work "Israeli Special Forces" teachers to teach in all of these businesses springing up. Ed Parker, once making the decision to go 'commercial,' recruited students from other arts, gave them the concept and let them teach. They are clearly following the very successful commercial kenpo business marketing model. You'll find what Krav looks like depends on the style and skill of the person recruited to teach it. In my business, I've had the occasion to come in contact with Isreali Secret Service and Special Forces over the years. Once this 'art' popped up, to a person they all said Krav is crap and is not what they were ever taught.
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    Default Re: Krav Maga

    Greetings.

    Krav Maga training methods, as I've experienced, are much like boxing/kickboxing pad training with self defense intent. So you'll get the fitness and the feeling that you can kick the crap out of a pad or bodyshield.

    From there you go to combinations and self defense applpications using these basics.

    Depending how well these basics are taught, is the quality of how they move and look. High level KM looks Very much like many JKD people I've seen. THey tend to look like muay thay fighters.

    The interesting thing is that after 40 or 45 years of age, what happens if you keep training like this? Normally hip replacements and knee surgeries follow. Not much in the correct anatomical movement direction.

    Much is muscled for force instead of properly aligned for power.

    That is just how I see it. It is not training that increases skill with age. Something you can make better till the day you can't move anymore.

    These are my thoughts on these training methods. If they take into account proper movement (as Inosanto apparently has), it would be much better.

    Sincerely,

    JUan M. Mercado

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    Default Re: Krav Maga

    Greetings.

    On Wing Chun and Kenpo.

    The Wing CHun forms have upper body movements that are pronounced in SL-4 index set 1 (exept for BAM's and PAM's). I was quite surprised!

    So, with that insight, since I'm also a Wing Chun instructor, I can tell you that I've used in Chi Sao (a 2 person drill for going at it up close) many kenpo sequences.

    Chi Sao is an "alive" spontaneous drill which is an intermediate step between free fighting and choreographed techniques.

    It assumes that you're up close to arms length and gets you used to the idea of being up close, where you might be anyway after the first blow is thrown.

    The main difference at the end of the day is strategy. If you have to fight, close the gap, control the attackers centerline and blast through it like a train. Or you can trap and manipulate, and blast away at your convienience. Or take down, then blast away.

    The blasting is quite pleasant. I like blasting...

    BLAST!!

    Anyway, the main fighting stance you'll find Wing CHun fighters is the rear bow. Which is really powerful for linear blasting!!!

    If you want more, you can go to the martialtalk forum of Wing Chun. They will be very happy to help.

    For Kenpo, I have my offensive strategic methods.

    I ask, which are the strategies that you have trained to employ in fighting (domination) and/or surviving?

    It is a VERY important question!

    Sincerely,

    Juan M. Mercado

    P.S. B L A S T ! ! !
    Last edited by profesormental; 12-17-2006 at 11:23 PM. Reason: more specific on SL-4 similarity.

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    Default Re: Krav Maga

    I havn't been too popular in the past when pointing out that some of what they do is dangerously flawed. Things like pinning a weapon hand in the crook of a bent arm as they strike his face with a straight, fully extended punch. Get a mediocre pin that depends on the proper angles to work at all, then change the angles as you drive him back and out of your pin..., makes sense to me! If he's holding a pistol, when it clears your "pin" it is pointing right at you. If a knife, think of all the things likely to get cut as it is withdrawn, with your assistance.

    I don't know about its' being developed for Israeli Special Forces, or the IDF, or what. But, I look around at all the stuff that was supposedly developed for our military and police, and I have to wonder. I think most of this stuff was developed in hopes of marketing it to Spec Ops, then telling us it was developed for them and selling it to us.

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    Default Re: Krav Maga

    Quote Originally Posted by profesormental View Post
    Greetings.

    Krav Maga training methods, as I've experienced, are much like boxing/kickboxing pad training with self defense intent. So you'll get the fitness and the feeling that you can kick the crap out of a pad or bodyshield.

    From there you go to combinations and self defense applpications using these basics.

    Depending how well these basics are taught, is the quality of how they move and look. High level KM looks Very much like many JKD people I've seen. THey tend to look like muay thay fighters.

    The interesting thing is that after 40 or 45 years of age, what happens if you keep training like this? Normally hip replacements and knee surgeries follow. Not much in the correct anatomical movement direction.

    Much is muscled for force instead of properly aligned for power.

    That is just how I see it. It is not training that increases skill with age. Something you can make better till the day you can't move anymore.

    These are my thoughts on these training methods. If they take into account proper movement (as Inosanto apparently has), it would be much better.

    Sincerely,

    JUan M. Mercado
    Good observations sir. You can't do these things for long before they catch up with you. Dan Inosanto spent time at Ark Wong as well.
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    Default Re: Krav Maga

    I have a ton of respect for Mr. Inosanto and Mr. Vunak. They really understand the principles that make self-defense work. I think Kenpo already has what JKD has (especially at the brown belt level), but, cross-training Kenpo and JKD makes a lot of sense to me.
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    Default Re: Krav Maga

    Quote Originally Posted by Dianhsuhe View Post
    Anybody have a Krav or Wing Chun background that can shed some light on the similarities or differences?

    James
    I have some wing chun background, and I have definitely had some "a-ha" moments when doing wing chun, and seeing similarities with my kenpo.

    sometimes seeing the same thing in a very different contexts helps the light go on in your head, and things start to click that hadn't before.
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    Default Re: Krav Maga

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikael151 View Post
    I have a ton of respect for Mr. Inosanto and Mr. Vunak. They really understand the principles that make self-defense work. I think Kenpo already has what JKD has (especially at the brown belt level), but, cross-training Kenpo and JKD makes a lot of sense to me.
    JKD is not style you can crosstrain. It is a training 'idea' or concept. Others since the passing of Bruce have tried to turn it into a sellable style with a set curriculum. This it never had, only methods of training information you might receive from various sources.

    Kenpo is much better at it in various ways when taught properly. With all of the emphasis on sparring, being explosive, and beating your opponant to the one punch etc, anyone know what happened when the JKD team competed at the International's? (Besides Bob White ) Danny himself emphasizes the arts of his heritage, but JKD is a good sale to get them in the door, keep the doors open, and pay the rent. Sound familiar?
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