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Thread: Anyone care to answer some of this?

  1. #41
    Fastmover is offline
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    Default Re: Let's really take a look at it please

    Quote Originally Posted by kenpoprofessor
    Ok, I've seen my name come up in this conversation a few times, WHY?

    There are only YOUR perceived gaps, not mine. I wasn't filling them with Gelatinous and EVEN-IF, I was extending them for the advanced practicioner as the novice needs the prior Solid, Liquid, Gaseous, and Ideal, What-If, and Forumulation to wield the knowledge they have from a better vantage point.

    How much time did Mr. Mills actually spend with Mr. Parker each year, let's break it down into hours shall we? Mr. Mills lives in Wyoming, which is http://www.mapquest.com/directions/m...nston&2s=WY&2z=
    738 miles according to mapquest, quite a travel every week or month even, wouldn't you agree? I live 58 miles from the studio where I train and sometimes find it difficult to get there as much as I'd like to, much less 738 miles. Taking these factors into consideration, I don't put much faith in Mr. Mills' depth of knowledge of the Kenpo system simply because he wasn't around Mr. Parker as much as the people who lived locally. Time at the feet of the Master can yield much knowledge, those without the time will have limited amounts.

    In the ten years or so since the creation of the AKKI there's only been a limited amount of material created in that time frame, and nothing close to the amount of material in the existing curriculm of EPAK already. Certainly someone with that much knowledge would have the ability to create much more in less time, why is that?

    Mr. Mills in not a first generation Black Belt as much as you'd like to think he is and I see no need for this forum for the Mills Lineage to exist, especially since you have an existing forum for your org. already on the AKKI site.

    And Lastly, why use the term American Kenpo and use Ed Parker's name because it's certainly not what EP created? It's Paul Mills Kenpo as the training methods and material are unique to the AKKI, why not call it what it is?


    Clyde

    http://www.kenpoprofessor.com/
    Always count on Clyde to stir the pot and lower the bar in a great discussion.

    Clyde,

    First , Mr. Mills is a first generation black belt promoted by Mr. Parker. I have seen the signed certificate. Mr. Parker must have thought enough of Mr. Mills skill and knowledge to promote him like he did. Clyde are you questioning Mr. Parkers judgement to promote??? Mr. Parker had many students that trained from a distance and traveled to work with him. It would be ignorant for you to think you know what was covered in all these lessons. If you are curious about Mr.Mills history you can read more about it in "The Journey." Im sure you have only read through pages 231-240 and these pages are pretty worn, but Mr. Mills story can be found in the chapter right before Mr. Tatums.

    Second, I would agree that many of the training methods and material used by the AKKI are unique. Because you have never trained extensively in the AKKI material you are unqualified to make any accurate statements regarding its contents or value. I simply do not understand how individuals that have an once of intellegence, come to a conclusion without attempting to develope a foundation built from an educated point of view. It just is not sound judgement.

    Third, since the AKKI was founded many ideas have been developed to help students develope a better understanding of the principles of Kenpo. As some are discovering , sometimes a "different vantage point" can do wonders in the students level of understanding motion. Dont just take my word for it, there are many other students coming to the AKKI that are finding value in what Mr. Mills teaches. Let this forum and many others be an example as there is clearly some positive excitement and momentum in what we are doing.

    I do agree that someone with a lot of knowledge can create. Which I would like to ask Clyde, name a couple of ideas that you have created? Open up and I will listen to some of your ideas. Surely in the years you have studied Kenpo, you have come up with an original idea? Maybe we could discuss some advanced versions of Delayed Sword??

    Have you ever created any new ideas......other then trouble on a forum?

    Last....thanks for coming to the Mills forum and helping to make it so successful. I think it is cool that we are talking about Mr. Mills.

    You Made My Kenpo Day Great!

    John

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    Default Re: Let's really take a look at it please

    Quote Originally Posted by Fastmover
    Always count on Clyde to stir the pot and lower the bar in a great discussion.

    Clyde,

    First , Mr. Mills is a first generation black belt promoted by Mr. Parker. I have seen the signed certificate. Mr. Parker must have thought enough of Mr. Mills skill and knowledge to promote him like he did. Clyde are you questioning Mr. Parkers judgement to promote??? Mr. Parker had many students that trained from a distance and traveled to work with him. It would be ignorant for you to think you know what was covered in all these lessons. If you are curious about Mr.Mills history you can read more about it in "The Journey." Im sure you have only read through pages 231-240 and these pages are pretty worn, but Mr. Mills story can be found in the chapter right before Mr. Tatums.

    Second, I would agree that many of the training methods and material used by the AKKI are unique. Because you have never trained extensively in the AKKI material you are unqualified to make any accurate statements regarding its contents or value. I simply do not understand how individuals that have an once of intellegence, come to a conclusion without attempting to develope a foundation built from an educated point of view. It just is not sound judgement.

    Third, since the AKKI was founded many ideas have been developed to help students develope a better understanding of the principles of Kenpo. As some are discovering , sometimes a "different vantage point" can do wonders in the students level of understanding motion. Dont just take my word for it, there are many other students coming to the AKKI that are finding value in what Mr. Mills teaches. Let this forum and many others be an example as there is clearly some positive excitement and momentum in what we are doing.

    I do agree that someone with a lot of knowledge can create. Which I would like to ask Clyde, name a couple of ideas that you have created? Open up and I will listen to some of your ideas. Surely in the years you have studied Kenpo, you have come up with an original idea? Maybe we could discuss some advanced versions of Delayed Sword??

    Have you ever created any new ideas......other then trouble on a forum?

    Last....thanks for coming to the Mills forum and helping to make it so successful. I think it is cool that we are talking about Mr. Mills.

    You Made My Kenpo Day Great!

    John
    OK, so you still didn't answer the question of how much time Mr. Mills spent with Mr. Parker being so far away as I did ask how many hours each year, not what material was covered. I don't have a copy of the Journey.

    Second, you guys are the ones who promote the fact that the material and training methods are unique to the AKKI, I simply repeated what you guys are saying. And you're right, I'm unqualified to speak on AKKI material because I don't train specifically with it, all the more reason to say that it's not American Kenpo, it's Paul Mills Kenpo, thank you for making my point even more evidently clear.


    New ideas in Kenpo huh, and had you been at the Las Vegas seminar you woud've seen it in person, but you weren't, so you're not qualified to speak on my ideas when you haven't trained with me either because it's obvious you wouldn't understand what I'm doing or saying. On top of that, I've posted my ideas and they've been discussed on another forum where there are EPAK practicioners to discuss them, not AKKI'ers. If I thought you would benefit from the conversation I would've posted it on the AKKI site forum.





    Exactly what trouble am I creating asking questions, to wit, I've gotten no REAL answers ie., Mr. Mills is not on the family tree as a first gen. and that he was trained by Mr. Parker's other Black Belts for many years before Mr. Parker actually had some hands on. Or, how many hours each year Mr. Mills trained with Mr. Parker living so far away from the source. What is the truth?


    Lastly, I still see no reason why this particular forum exists, it serves no purpose as you have your own forum on the AKKI site to extol the virtues of Paul Mills and his training methods there. Paul Mills was not promoted to 7th by Mr. Parker either, in fact, I believe it was Leilani who issued the certificate and rubber stamped it with Mr. Parker's signature like many others. With that in mind, the others on the Lineage forums were promoted to 7th by Mr. Parker himself, what makes Paul Mills unique for this?

    John, you've really made no good arguments in your defense, please try again.


    Having a great Kenpo day

    Clyde

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    Default Re: Let's really take a look at it please

    Quote Originally Posted by kenpoprofessor
    Second, you guys are the ones who promote the fact that the material and training methods are unique to the AKKI, I simply repeated what you guys are saying. And you're right, I'm unqualified to speak on AKKI material because I don't train specifically with it, all the more reason to say that it's not American Kenpo, it's Paul Mills Kenpo, thank you for making my point even more evidently clear.

    Having a great Kenpo day

    Clyde
    Reading in on this dicussion, I have to say, Clyde has made an excellent point. If the AKKI material is so unique, why call it American Kenpo?


    Jamie Seabrook
    www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

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    Default Re: Anyone care to answer some of this?

    The answer depends on how you view and define American Kenpo. When I first started in the EPAK system, after having studied several other styles, I came to realize that the EPAK system was grounded in principles that governed motion. These principles of motion, in short, limited (or if you practiced enough, hopefully eliminated) wasted motion and energy. This was a significant focus in a martial arts world of classical and traditional techniques developed sometimes thousands of years ago to suit a particular need at the time (ex: tae kwon do’s high kicks to hit invading Japanese who were on horses) Mr. Parker recognized that much of what he had come in contact with was no longer as effective as it once was (or maybe never was). He began to create techniques that were in line with scientific principles of motion and that suited the current environment and potential threats. By nature, this philosophy and ideology would place Kenpo in an ever-progressive state (1. as the times and thus the needs defensively changed, and 2. as motion, principles of motion etc… are better understood/ more realized, etc.) What was unique for me, as I began to study the EPAK system, was that I could take old techs that I had learned in Shotokan Karate, Kung-fu etc and apply the “principles of motion” that I was learning in EPAK, and execute them more explosively, with more power, and with far less wasted motion and energy; I think this was evidence for me that the principles worked. Some of my old techs suited this, others did not, and needed some alteration to allow the application of Mr. Parkers principles, but I could do an old kung fu tech. but clearly move like an American Kenpo student.
    Now to your question; It is these principles and this philosophy and ideology that I believe defines “American Kenpo” and its nature. The AKKI material, Paul Mills “material”, and the AKKI curriculum is based on and grounded in these principals and in this philosophy. Where it is “different” or “unique” is purely where it has continued to progress (1. as the times and thus the needs defensively changed, and 2. as motion, principles of motion etc… are better understood/ more realized, etc.) as it would have had Mr. Parker not passed away. We would be in remiss to refer to it solely as “Mr. Mill’s” Kenpo as it is founded on and an extension of, what Mr. Parker was doing. While we recognize (and are proud of) Mr. Mills innovations and progression of an art dear to all of us, it is completely guided by , grounded in and an extension of, Mr. Parkers philosophy and principles, thus, it is in its very nature, American Kenpo.

    I hope this answers the question.

    Good Day.

    Jason L.

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    Default Re: Anyone care to answer some of this?

    Reading in on this dicussion, I have to say, Clyde has made an excellent point. If the AKKI material is so unique, why call it American Kenpo?
    American Kenpo is merely a broad classification, kind of like Ford Truck. What kind of Ford Truck is it? Is it an F-150, F-350, King Ranch, Ranger, etc. If you want to be more specific then refer to it as Paul Mills American Kenpo, that's essentially what it is. I don't know why everyone has such a problem with this.

    I did notice that Clyde chose not to respond to my previous post regarding the amount of information released.

    While I responded to Clyde's question regarding quantity of information, I believe that quality should be of greater concern. The AKKI wouldn't have the following it does if the quality was not there. People would not continue to spend the time and money necessary to make the camps, classes, and seminars unless they saw the information as worth while on a repeated basis. I could care less if Mr. Mills was a 1st gen or if Mr. Parker promoted him to 7th. All I know is that Mr. Mills and the AKKI are teaching quality information that works and moves better than any of the other flavors of kenpo I've seen out there. Call it whatever you want, it still doesn't change the fact that it works and it works well.

    As for the forum thing. Forums are merely a place for people to share info, stories, etc. Apparently there was enough demand to warrant a Mills forum, and obviously we are taking advantage of it as evidenced by the number of people participating in this forum, not to mention the number of posts.

    Clyde all your arguments are superficial at best. Your argument is based on the fact that Mr. Mills is trying to take Mr. Parker's place in American Kenpo as the Grand Poobah. Nothing could be further from the truth. I guarantee you that if Mr. Mills were to release AKKI technique videos and material to the general public that the AKKI would explode in size and revenue. Mr. Mills is doing his own thing for right now and trying to honor Mr. Parker's memory as much as possible. I say we leave it at that.

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    Default Re: Anyone care to answer some of this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason L
    The answer depends on how you view and define American Kenpo.
    Hi Jason,

    I agree with most of what you are saying - Kenpo is an ever evolving art - that is what makes it so great.

    However, as for what "American Kenpo" is, Ed Parker had established his American Kenpo curriculum in Infinite Insights into Kenpo, vol 5, which consisted of 154 techniques, and 96 extensions (utilizing the 24 technique system), plus the forms and sets. If one is not teaching these forms, sets, or techniques, is it still American Kenpo? I would argue no.

    One of the commonalities of many Kenpoists is that when they can't find what they are looking for in American Kenpo, they are quick to conclude that it has so many weaknesses, when in reality, these "weaknesses" are perceived only. EPAK is a complete system, and one needs to look to top-notch black belts who have the answers to their misconceptions about the system.

    Just my opinion.


    Jamie Seabrook
    www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

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    Default Re: Anyone care to answer some of this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook
    Hi Jason,

    I agree with most of what you are saying - Kenpo is an ever evolving art - that is what makes it so great.

    However, as for what "American Kenpo" is, Ed Parker had established his American Kenpo curriculum in Infinite Insights into Kenpo, vol 5, which consisted of 154 techniques, and 96 extensions (utilizing the 24 technique system), plus the forms and sets. If one is not teaching these forms, sets, or techniques, is it still American Kenpo? I would argue no.

    One of the commonalities of many Kenpoists is that when they can't find what they are looking for in American Kenpo, they are quick to conclude that it has so many weaknesses, when in reality, these "weaknesses" are perceived only. EPAK is a complete system, and one needs to look to top-notch black belts who have the answers to their misconceptions about the system.
    Just my opinion.
    Jamie Seabrook
    So do you think that The "insights" books were written to standardize THE American Kenpo Karate curricula? That Mr. Parker wrote them to establish what the art was and was not?

    I have no problem not calling what we do "EPAK". It's not. In my way of thinking, "EPAK" died when the "EP" died. Mr. Parker didn't strive to pass himself along, I'd think...., but to pass along American Kenpo Karate. But what we do is still very much "American Kenpo Karate". Mr. Parker taught Mr. Mills (regardless of what Clyde would like to think) and Mr. Mills felt inspired to continue to work to refine American Kenpo. So because he's tried to refine it the name should be changed?? No. I really don't think so. To me, I always refer to it as "AKKI Kenpo". Names are important. American Kenpo Karate is a concept and an ideal, both of which I feel we in the AKKI still very much embody. Like I said, I think Kenpo is an ideal & a concept, not a list of techniques, forms and sets. Yes Clyde, we DO do "American Kenpo", just not the one you are familiar with. I've got no problem with calling it "Paul Mills American Kenpo Karate"....wouldn't bother me. Thing is, Mr. Mills doesn't want the art to be all about HIM though. He doesn't put his name on it because the art isn't about him, it's about every individual practitioner. So we just call it "American Kenpo Karate" and that's more than enough for me. I know who taught Mr. Mills, I know whom he credits with his knowledge and insight into Kenpo. No need to put mens names on things, we know where we came from, where we are and where we intend to go.

    Clyde-
    Why come here to attack? Why try to bring Mr. Mills rank, history with his instructor or anything else we do in the AKKI into question?
    Let me try your own tactic on here: You often say that if people have a question about why Mr. Parker severed ties with Mr. Tatum and cut him off they should call or contact Mr. Tatum to find out why. Personally, A: Though I find that part of history intriguing, I could really care less. Mr. Tatum, his org and their art doesn't bother/affect me in one way or the other. B: I agree. That's the logical route for someone to take. If you want personal information on Mr. XYZ....then contact Mr. XYZ.
    Mr. Mills has his phone number posted. Mr. Mills has his E-mail posted. I believe he's got his mailing address posted.
    Please: let us know how your inquiry goes.

    Your accusation of "Not a first Gen" and "Too far to really study with him"...doesn't hold water for me. I may not know a heckuva lot, but I know you are wrong.
    ALSO: Like has already been stated, what we are doing is GOOD. Call it what you will, say it came from wherevere and whomever you will... you can't take away from the fact that it works, works well, it's comprehensive, it's efficient, it's founded on solid principles...etc. etc.
    I know you aren't going to agree with me Clyde. That's ok. Knowing that you disagree with the AKKI and our way of doing things at all.... sorta lets me know that all is still right with the world...and that I'm exactly where I need to be.
    Thanks for the consistancy. Don't get me wrong Clyde, I wish you all the best. I know that w/in your association there are many that appreciate you, and that's commendable.... But your opposition toward us..... though misguided, well...the attention and effort is flattering.
    Just glad to know you care.

    Having a Great...
    American Kenpo Karate
    Paul Mills Kenpo Karate
    AKKI Kenpo Karate
    Ed Parker 'inspired' American Kenpo Karate
    Evolved Kenpo Karate
    Advanced Kenpo Karate
    Faaast, hard-hitting, brutal & comprehensive American Kenpo Karate
    John Haag's Kenpo Karate
    Having an increadibly fun time Amercan Kenpo Karate
    Improving all the time American Kenpo Karate
    ......etc. etc.
    American Kenpo Karate.....
    Day.

    your Brother (did I mention I study American Kenpo Karate)
    John
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  8. #48
    MJS
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    Default Re: Anyone care to answer some of this?

    One question that I have is: Why do people, who are not involved in the AKKI, seem so concerned with what they're doing? I understand that some people may have had better access to Mr. Parker than others, so of course, if someone spent 4 hrs a day, 5 days a week, compared to 2 hrs, once a month, of course, the 4/5 person is going to gain more, but the fact remains that the others are still training. If time won't permit it, theres really nothing you can do. Sometimes we just have to take what we can get at the time. I don't live in Ca. so I have to take advantage of what I can, where I am. That being said, if I have access to a Palanzo school, Tracy school, AKKI school, then that is what I have to deal with. At least I'm training.

    As for the material taught...I don't want to comment on that because I have not seen first hand the AKKI material.

    My point is: We're all different. What appeals to one, may not appeal to someone else. If you're not associated with the AKKI, why let what they're teaching bother you?? If someone is training under Palanzo, Palanas, Tatum, Mills, or any of the others, they're obviously happy there, they're learning Kenpo, and probably won't leave, so what the big deal with what Mills is doing?

    Mike

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    Jason L is offline
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    Default Re: Anyone care to answer some of this?

    Seabrook,

    I think we will have to agree to disagree on what American Kenpo is.
    I have known many, and been in several "American Kenpo" schools, that taught "154 techniques, and 96 extensions (utilizing the 24 technique system), plus the forms and sets." but had lost the essence of Mr. Parkers art. They did not execute or move as Mr. Parker did (not even remotely). The motion and principles were not there. But believe me, they could quote infinite insights till they were blue in the face... Were they teaching American Kenpo? I would argue no. American Kenpo is far more than a 24 technique per belt system, it is a way of moving. If a "top-notch" American Kenpo black belt were to go to a wing-chun school, take one of their techs., say, "Pak Dar" or "Pak sao" and teach them how to employ marriage of gravity, or use depth-height-width/forward momentum-vertical drop- body rotation, properly, in their technique, what is he teaching?
    Again, I believe American Kenpo is about motion etc. the 24 tech system was the way Parker categorized it at the time... were he still alive, I am quite confident he would have changed and progressed things himself.

    I also agree with kenpo yahoo... American Kenpo has gotten to be a pretty broad classification. From what I have seen, the AKKI is the "flavor" of kenpo that uses principles of motion the most effectively. Because of that, I too do not care how many techs per belt I learn, or if Mr. Mills is a first gen blk belt. I would rather move 10 techs with great execution than 24 with mediocre execution. Just a thought.

    Thanks for the reply,

    Jason L.

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    Default Re: Anyone care to answer some of this?

    Brother John,

    I'm stealing this;

    Having a Great...
    American Kenpo Karate
    Paul Mills Kenpo Karate
    AKKI Kenpo Karate
    Ed Parker 'inspired' American Kenpo Karate
    Evolved Kenpo Karate
    Advanced Kenpo Karate
    Faaast, hard-hitting, brutal & comprehensive American Kenpo Karate
    John Haag's Kenpo Karate
    Having an increadibly fun time Amercan Kenpo Karate
    Improving all the time American Kenpo Karate
    ......etc. etc.
    American Kenpo Karate.....
    Day.

    Very funny, but you forgot

    "not real American Kenpo Karate"
    and
    "moves to fast to hit hard American Kenpo Karate"

    Day

    haha, little humor.

    Jason L.

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    Default Re: Anyone care to answer some of this?

    Well, first off, let me just mention why it is that I'm even on this thread: something I wrote as a general comment on kenpo got picked up and put in a context, here, that made it look like a particular comment on AKKI kenpo--which it wasn't. Did I have some of the "Mills lineage," folks' remarks on various forums in mind? Sure. Did I also have a lot of things I've heard right at home in mind? Absolutely.

    Second off, it seems that a lot of folks, these days, behave somewhat badly and then start claiming that anybody who objects is being rude, or neurotic, or whatever. Please go back to the first page of this thread, and scope out some of the remarks about Mr. Tatum--and myself, for that matter.

    Third off, there was a piece of advice here that I thought was good--go back and look at "The Journey," and see what Mr. Mills had to say about his own training. So I did--and yes indeed, he's very clear that his primary instructor was Terry Arnell, and that he'd taken the trouble to get out to Pasadena and have Mr. Parker look at his stuff, that the man had been out for several seminars at Mr. Mills' home school, that he'd tested in front of Mr. Parker a couple times, that he'd travelled to some of Mr. Parker's seminars.

    He's also very clear about the application of his own "fast-draw," experience to his style of kenpo, and cites those darn D1/D2 patterns--I have some serious (or so I hope) questions about inserting so much that depends entirely upon his own physical orientation into kenpo teaching, but he's certainly very clear about what he's doing.

    Again, let me try and make my general point here clear: I just don't think that this revolutionary/evolutionary stuff is all that evolutionary or revolutionary--at least, not in the sense being claimed. This is, in very general terms, because I just don't think that these evolutions or revolutions are made all that easily: I think they depend on particular historical and cultural circumstances at least as much as they depend on individuals and their talents, and so I think that Mr. Parker happened to appear in a particular set of circumstances that simply don't exist any more. For example, I think that his having been born in Hawaii at a time when the "traditional," Asian arts were just starting to break out in the West is significant, as is the half-moral and half-criminal nature of kenpo's confused origins with Mr. Mitose and Mr. Chow.

    I think that these particular evolutions/revolutions are the products of a particular good teacher's strong development, and his--let me be clear; Mr. Mills'--teaching his students exactly the same development. I don't think that's anything like the same as what Mr. Parker did, not at all.

    It seems only reasonable, too, to ask this question: at least implicit in Mr. Parker's work is the claim that kenpo does indeed, "have everything in there," that it really is, "the science of all martial arts." It is called the "UNIVERSAL pattern," you know, and if it's universal, then anything like D1/D2 patterns, well, they're in there. So, all righty, then: is this true?

    AKKI folks, as far as I can tell, are basically saying, "No." They're claiming to be doing more than what I think is happening, which is to pull out a subset of the kenpo system and declare it something revolutionary and brand-new.

    So have I got this right?

    P.S. In answers, can folks PLEASE not yak about grappling? Yes, it's in there. No, I probably don't practice/develop groundwork enough. OK, done deal.

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    Default Re: Anyone care to answer some of this?

    I just don't think that this revolutionary/evolutionary stuff is all that evolutionary or revolutionary--at least, not in the sense being claimed.
    While I certainly think that we, the AKKI, could make the argument for evolution/revolution it should be noted that the tag line on the AKKI website actually says "Higher Proficiency through Innovation." Not higher proficiency through evolution.

    I think that these particular evolutions/revolutions are the products of a particular good teacher's strong development, and his--let me be clear; Mr. Mills'--teaching his students exactly the same development. I don't think that's anything like the same as what Mr. Parker did, not at all.
    Mr. Parker wasn't anything magical, he was just a man. His students were a reflection of his knowledge and teaching ability, just as every other student of any art is a reflection of their teachers knowledge and teaching ability (as well as their own ability to learn). How is that anything different than what is occuring now?

    It seems only reasonable, too, to ask this question: at least implicit in Mr. Parker's work is the claim that kenpo does indeed, "have everything in there," that it really is, "the science of all martial arts." It is called the "UNIVERSAL pattern," you know, and if it's universal, then anything like D1/D2 patterns, well, they're in there. So, all righty, then: is this true?
    Then by this same argument, technically the dictionary contains every single novel ever written and every single invention to ever be made already exists because classical mechanics and quantum mechanics encompass everything in the physical universe. This is a dumb argument Robert. Sure, technically the Universal Pattern contains all possible motion. Now apply that to your practice. If you don't understand the application of a concept you may have it, but you don't OWN it.

    AKKI folks, as far as I can tell, are basically saying, "No." They're claiming to be doing more than what I think is happening, which is to pull out a subset of the kenpo system and declare it something revolutionary and brand-new.
    So have I got this right?
    No. It's as simple as that. You are incorrect. First and foremost you don't have a clue as to what we are doing, so for you to speculate about whether or not we are teaching new/evolutionary/revolutionary info is ridiculous. Which subset are we pulling out and declaring revolutionary? Where did we say this was revolutionary? Give examples. This is your word that you chose.

    Again, I refer you to the AKKI website "Higher Proficiency Through Innovation."

    This was going so well until..... well... you know.

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    Default Re: Anyone care to answer some of this?

    While I certainly think that we, the AKKI, could make the argument for evolution/revolution it should be noted that the tag line on the AKKI website actually says "Higher Proficiency through Innovation." Not higher proficiency through evolution
    Just as a humorous aside if we could forcefully evolve, we would probably have four arms like that guy from mortal combat. Can you imagine the timing drills then? Yikes.

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    Default Re: Anyone care to answer some of this?

    Quote Originally Posted by MJS
    My point is: We're all different. What appeals to one, may not appeal to someone else. If you're not associated with the AKKI, why let what they're teaching bother you?? If someone is training under Palanzo, Palanas, Tatum, Mills, or any of the others, they're obviously happy there, they're learning Kenpo, and probably won't leave, so what the big deal with what Mills is doing?
    Excellent way to put it Mike!!!!!...and a Very good question.

    Seems to me that when a person is content they don't go out of their way to make accusations and attack what others are doing when those others aren't doing them any harm anyway. So why attack? Where's the motivation?? Why even care what others who aren't associated with you are doing?

    I'd think that only a person who was dissatisfied and/or inssecure....with a chip on their shoulder or a grudge to handle would come in and start slinging mudd like that. I didn't think that Clyde was insecure; he's very 'secure' in what he's doing.....and he says so at every opportunity. Good for him. He just came back from having a good time at his associations camp.... should have his "Kenpo-Belly" full, warm and content.

    I personally think that it's easier and better to get ahead in life by lengthening ones own line rather than going out of your way to try to clip the line of someone else.

    Having a Grrrrrreat...
    Hammer and Anvil American Kenpo Karate ...
    Watch-Maker American Kenpo Karate ...
    Applying the insights books w/equal benefit American Kenpo Karate ...
    Moving far Tooo fast to NOT hit hard American Kenpo Karate ...
    Droppin sweat on the mats every day American Kenpo Karate ...
    Really only concerned about me and mine American Kenpo Karate ...

    ....Day!!!!!!

    Your Brother
    John
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    Default Re: Anyone care to answer some of this?

    I was wondering where this debate would resurface.

    Looking at it from the outside...with no preference of Parker-Tatum-Clyde lineage vs Parker-Mills-AKKI lineage...You guys are really just comparing green apples to red apples. In the big scheme of martial arts, It is basically the same Kenpo. Sure, there are some vocabulary tweaks, some technique reshuffling, and fine-tuning of timing and distance. But when you compare it against non-Kenpo systems or even against Kenpo outside of the Parker lineage, what the two camps are doing is basically the same.

    Perhaps the most important difference is that the AKKI is attempting to innovate and improve whereas Clyde and his sympathisers are looking to understand and preserve the "traditional" EPAK system.

    In the end, it is kind of like arguing about whether the Protestants or the Catholics have it right. You won't know for sure until after you are dead.
    Alan Wortman aka Old Fat Kenpoka

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    Default Re: Anyone care to answer some of this?

    Let me take a breath here, and try to explain a few things.

    First: no, Alan, that's not it at all. It's not the same debate (decent try with the, "Clyde and his sympathizers," rhetoric, though), but you might want to actually read the thread. And the separation you insist upon between evolution and tradition simply doesn't a) reflect the kenpo I was taught, b) reflect kenpo's general history, c) help us understand what's going on with our own particular training and kenpo in the present day. This fantasy of a simple binary opposition between "evolution," vs. "tradition," however, does seem to be useful for those who like to fantasize that they are Above All That. If you must insist upon it, try getting down in the mud with the rest of us: how does YOUR training, and understanding, reflect a tension between tradition and evolution?

    Second--the repeated, and insisted upon, claim is that Mr. Mills has made evolutionary developments in the kenpo system. Please read the thread for examples, of which there are a number. Along with this, my, "dumb argument," was actually a hypothesis--which means that it was a question, meant to be tested, not a flat statement. That's why I stated what I believed to be Mr. Parker's view of kenpo as, "universal," and then wrote--as was quoted--"Is this true?" What I wrote had nothing to do with declaring anybody a magician: quite the opposite, because what I've repeatedly said is that developments like Mr. Parker's kenpo depend upon sets of cultural and historical circumstance that no individual creates.

    I might add that Mr. Mills ain't a magician, neither--and a big chunk of my argument is that I have doubts about all the total innovation (or evolution, or whatever) claimed, because I don't see the sort of changed material circumstances in which they could appear from anybody. Once again, "kenpoyahoo," a simple question: tell me exactly what these radical, or revolutionary, or evolutionary changes are. Simply explain, and explain why they are nowhere in the kenpo I was taught. Or here's an interesting question: are you folks still doing those same old, "traditional," forms at all?

    And last, in response to the old, "I don't even know why you guys are worrying, you must be insecure," stuff, a quote from my last post--which I wouldn't have thought could be so far away that it couldn't be found:

    "Well, first off, let me just mention why it is that I'm even on this thread: something I wrote as a general comment on kenpo got picked up and put in a context, here, that made it look like a particular comment on AKKI kenpo--which it wasn't. Did I have some of the "Mills lineage," folks' remarks on various forums in mind? Sure. Did I also have a lot of things I've heard right at home in mind? Absolutely.

    Second off, it seems that a lot of folks, these days, behave somewhat badly and then start claiming that anybody who objects is being rude, or neurotic, or whatever. Please go back to the first page of this thread, and scope out some of the remarks about Mr. Tatum--and myself, for that matter."

    I'm now disappearing from this thread, unless the discussion turns civil and intelligent again.

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    Default Re: Anyone care to answer some of this?

    Robert-

    I've got no questions as to why you are here on this thread in this forum. I think you've been absolutely straightforward with that; and I appreciate the candor... weather or not you agree with me or with the AKKI's stance on anything, I think that overall you've behaved yourself well here. I don't question your motives, because you stated them outright. To me it's odd that a high ranking person would go out of their way to make the spitefull claims that Clyde made. It's his behavior that I find offensive, it's his behavior that I'd think in any other context would denote someone with insecurities. I don't think that you turned anything uncivil, I don't think I did either. I think that Clyde did. He brought up rude and presumptive claims that didn't even have a place in the subject of this thread. You have stayed the course of your stated intentions, initially to be understood and then later...I think...to try to understand better as well. I respect that a great deal.

    Sorry if something I said or did made you feel I was making rude or uncivil claims against you. It wasn't my intention.

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    Default Re: Anyone care to answer some of this?

    Quote Originally Posted by rmcr
    Let me take a breath here, and try to explain a few things.

    First: no, Alan, that's not it at all. It's not the same debate (decent try with the, "Clyde and his sympathizers," rhetoric, though), but you might want to actually read the thread. And the separation you insist upon between evolution and tradition simply doesn't a) reflect the kenpo I was taught, b) reflect kenpo's general history, c) help us understand what's going on with our own particular training and kenpo in the present day. This fantasy of a simple binary opposition between "evolution," vs. "tradition," however, does seem to be useful for those who like to fantasize that they are Above All That. If you must insist upon it, try getting down in the mud with the rest of us: how does YOUR training, and understanding, reflect a tension between tradition and evolution?

    Second--the repeated, and insisted upon, claim is that Mr. Mills has made evolutionary developments in the kenpo system. Please read the thread for examples, of which there are a number. Along with this, my, "dumb argument," was actually a hypothesis--which means that it was a question, meant to be tested, not a flat statement. That's why I stated what I believed to be Mr. Parker's view of kenpo as, "universal," and then wrote--as was quoted--"Is this true?" What I wrote had nothing to do with declaring anybody a magician: quite the opposite, because what I've repeatedly said is that developments like Mr. Parker's kenpo depend upon sets of cultural and historical circumstance that no individual creates.

    I might add that Mr. Mills ain't a magician, neither--and a big chunk of my argument is that I have doubts about all the total innovation (or evolution, or whatever) claimed, because I don't see the sort of changed material circumstances in which they could appear from anybody. Once again, "kenpoyahoo," a simple question: tell me exactly what these radical, or revolutionary, or evolutionary changes are. Simply explain, and explain why they are nowhere in the kenpo I was taught. Or here's an interesting question: are you folks still doing those same old, "traditional," forms at all?

    And last, in response to the old, "I don't even know why you guys are worrying, you must be insecure," stuff, a quote from my last post--which I wouldn't have thought could be so far away that it couldn't be found:

    "Well, first off, let me just mention why it is that I'm even on this thread: something I wrote as a general comment on kenpo got picked up and put in a context, here, that made it look like a particular comment on AKKI kenpo--which it wasn't. Did I have some of the "Mills lineage," folks' remarks on various forums in mind? Sure. Did I also have a lot of things I've heard right at home in mind? Absolutely.

    Second off, it seems that a lot of folks, these days, behave somewhat badly and then start claiming that anybody who objects is being rude, or neurotic, or whatever. Please go back to the first page of this thread, and scope out some of the remarks about Mr. Tatum--and myself, for that matter."

    I'm now disappearing from this thread, unless the discussion turns civil and intelligent again.
    I have read the thread Robert. If I had all day and nothing else to do, I'd go search KenpoNet and MartialTalk and cut and paste all the same ole stuff that's being bandied about here just to prove to you that this is the same debate--including the points you make in your arguments. And, Robert, the only things that keep this debate from being civil and intelligent are people who believe that all Kenpo wisdom that will ever exist was deposited by Mr. Parker for safe keeping under some long red hair in Pasadena.
    Alan Wortman aka Old Fat Kenpoka

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    Default Re: Anyone care to answer some of this?

    After reading all this and seeing clyde move. Your mighty on the key board Clyde and need to to practice more on the mat. Back in the old days skill was tested on the mat. Not the mouth!!!!!!!!

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    Default 3 quick statements

    1) I agree with Brother John despite my difference of opinion with Robert, I thought the thread was moving smoothly before you know who showed up.

    2) I agree with OFK that not all that is kenpo has come from Parker or even Mr. Mills, hopefully the art will continue to be refined well into the future and I look forward to learning as much as I can.

    3) As for what Jyufeng stated, well........ Amen Brother.

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