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Thread: Anyone care to answer some of this?

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Anyone care to answer some of this?

    When Mr. Jacob's posting in the fashion of his last two posts, I have no real problems with his arguments and disagreements; when he writes some goofy thing like, "Tatum was kicked out and they just try and spin that and that's something that won't go away but they try and make sure it's forgotten which anyone can understand why. It's pretty negative and it also recants anything positive Mr. Parker said about them(him). As far as hidden, they are some of the biggest proponents of all the hidden elements in EPAK as they just don't understand it, they need to find it," yes indeedy, I have a problem. Which on a forum, I try to handle by picking apart the rhetoric, the false assumptions, and the intellectual problems involved....even if, to quote Mr Jacob again, that just means me being, "unfortunately...the one who enjoys the power of his academia and continually trying to belittle others with a ostentatious display of verbose nonsense. Blind to his own problems. Clearly unable to see from the inside out." Shall I write something comparable and we can see who gets how defensive how fast?

    I don't really want to get into the whole who Mr. Parker taught what thingy, precisely because he was so sneaky about what he taught to whom and what he said about it later--but, I can tell you that for various reasons and in view of multiple evidences I'm as sure as I need to be that my own instructors got their own good solid chunk of the Big Kenpo Pie, and not one with no burned crust neither. We can all be fooled in such regards, of course. As I more or less said above this, sometimes I think that Mr. Chap'el has a much better handle on what the boss did to screw up the world of kenpo than even he knows....and I'd be interested to try and figure out to what extent Mr. Parker acted just like any number of responsible, traditional teachers about what he passed on, and to what extent he was doing....something else. Whatever it was, it certainly hasn't helped us discuss things civilly, or even intelligently.

    More importantly, Mr. Jacob, I don't believe I actually wrote that knowledge should be thrown around carelessly. I wrote that it should be made available to anybody who's willing to work for it, and one of the corollaries to that is, well, of course I don't believe in handing loaded guns to idiot children. Yes, you're quite right--one of the vicissitudes of teaching college (or anything else) is that, these days, too many students just want the Quick Cheap Fix for everything.

    I'm afraid that I am a traditionalist, whatever that means, in one sense at least: I believe that the old Chinese guys are right, and that there is no substitute for long slow training. Or more precisely, pretty much anybody can be taught a decent level of self-defense fairly quickly, and that's a worth-while goal. Moreover, I think there are a few wizards who can go a lot further than that, a lot faster--Bruce Lee appears to've been one of them. But I don't think that there's any way at all of short-cutting, speeding up, or improving the long slow process of development and evolution that needs to go on inside a student who wants to know more than they need for realistic self-defense. (An example--I can study from now till doomsday, and unless their arms fall off, I'm still going to get my tail waxed by somebody like, say, Keith Vargo or name-any-Gracie...so why keep studying? I think something else becomes important.) I think there's a difference in philosophy here: a) I don't think martial arts training addresses the conscious mind, and b) I think the unconscious is going to take its own sweet time.

    I also appreciate your connecting the D1/D2 stuff to physical therapy and rehab after neurological injury; that, I can look up and think about, so it helps me understand what you mean.

    Again, thanks for the courteous reply; if you don't mind, I will try and keep this end of the coversation going--provided I come up with anything halfway intelligent to say.

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Anyone care to answer some of this?

    It's no secret that there are certain personalities on these forums that royally piss me off, just as I'm sure I do the same to others. Since this particular line of discussion appears to be continuing in a halfway cordial manner I thought I might try adding something to the discussion in the same fashion.

    For more info try looking up Proprioceptive Neuromuscular Facilitation. 99% of the info out there will have something to do with neurological/muscular based rehabilitation. To truly map over, or at least find a minor correlation, to the martial arts requires something a bit more involved. This may, at the very least, give you somewhat of an introduction as to our reason for making this an integral part of the AKKI system.

    Regards

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Anyone care to answer some of this?

    RM,
    "More importantly, Mr. Jacob, I don't believe I actually wrote that knowledge should be thrown around carelessly. I wrote that it should be made available to anybody who's willing to work for it, and one of the corollaries to that is, well, of course I don't believe in handing loaded guns to idiot children. Yes, you're quite right--one of the vicissitudes of teaching college (or anything else) is that, these days, too many students just want the Quick Cheap Fix for everything. "

    Maybe I misunderstood. But I inferred from your statment that working for it was too loose and had too many variables for my taste. Trying to get to a better understanding. I didn't think you meant carelessly either just too open for my taste again from what it sounded like.
    We have common ground to work from it's just getting to that. If you tell me that is just how you write and communicate I have to either accept or reject. I have read many of your posts and to me, it seems to extend beyond a normal tone of just communicating ideas but using your education as a hammer where everything else is a nail. Again, what it sounds like. I know it doesn't sound like that to you. No matter what i think, what's important to you will always be so and so is our affect on one another which is why we should consider others.

    "But I don't think that there's any way at all of short-cutting, speeding up, or improving the long slow process of development and evolution that needs to go on inside a student who wants to know more than they need for realistic self-defense."
    I agree. Some may say or percieve differently form reading our website that we have found short cuts per say. I can easily see how one could see it that way. Here's another try at how/why we can get someone moving more effeciently in a shorter amount of time. Take the D1 D2 flexion extension patterns and lay them out like a physical blueprint in from of you to follow. Then an understanding of the proximal , medial, and distal joints and the paths that they follow and intersect with each other and then lay them on top of the D1 D2 blueprint. Pretty soon, whith more study of course, you can see Mr. Parkers 3 d universal design and Mr. Mills' universal and how they work. Problem for many, they only see the weapon moving on those angles. Get everything moving and complying with those and you now have pure motion that moves unemcumbered with exceptins being understanding, ability to facilitate, physical problems... Ther is nothing that takes the place of hard work and practice till your blue in the face. We believe in the same thing. We just believe we can get someone more proficient quicker through an understanding of some of this and other principles (and better mechanics)that are primarily taught in the AKKI. We do not imply that you shouldn't practice it for the rest of your life. The practice is what builds Proprioneuromuscular responses - PNF. Like walking.
    With reference to the boys in Ireland, I did not improve their motion. They were not open to what I was sharing. My testimonial was about they saw a vast difference and had no idea why all the while doing the same techniques and been performing them much much longer than myself as well as having Mr. Parker there personally.
    Here's what I think. I don't many asked Mr. Parker "I see how you teach the technique and I see how you do it. I want to learn how you do it." I'm sure there a few but I don't see many many moving with the voracity, ballistic speed and power of Mr. Parker.
    Just my thoughts. Not trying to claim he or she did or didn't do this. This is based on how many people I have seen move EPAK, myself included before I got with Mr. Mills.
    Alan

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Anyone care to answer some of this?

    Mr Robertson,
    Have you ever went to an AKKI camp, school, or worked out with an AKKI black belt? Because I think that if you have not then your argument though well spoken is not exactly valid. Most of us speaking of the AKKI and what they have to offer have been through black in the EPAK system, I even went through the material at a LTKKA member school. So I have seen AND WORKED both systems and can understand, experience, and demonstrate the differences in what I think has become evolutionary. Have you ever attempted to see or learn any of the material? This is not meant to be inflamitory but as an educated man should you not study all your resources for a subject before making what appears to be educated analysis? If you are going to make judgements on another curriculum or claims about that curriculum would an educated man not completely and adequately research the subject by actually seeing and doing or even feeling the material to see the differences? Most of us are truly qualified to make the argument or statements as to the differences in the systems because we have worked and experienced the both of them.......I came from an LTKKA school not directly under Mr. Tatum such as yourself but I had good instruction none the less, Since then working with the AKKI material at least I gave the curriculum a PHYSICAL chance and experienced it first hand before passing unresearched judgement.
    So in short the majority of us have been thru Ed Parkers curriculum to pass judgement have you been through the AKKI's to make an educated assesment? I refer to the following quote made by you
    " ...too many of us wouldn't recognize self-analysis, character development, open-heartedness, disdain for pretense and name-dropping, laughter at pomposity, acceptance of our own limitations, respect for other people's achievements--and understanding that we screw up pretty much the same ways we think the other guy is screwing up--if these martial arts principles all sprouted legs and arms, ran up in a gang, and started whopping us upside the head. "
    Hey pot....this is the kettle calling

    I look forward to you avoiding answering my questions about actual physical analysis of the system.
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  5. #25
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    Default Re: Anyone care to answer some of this?

    Actually, Hunter, what I wrote--repeatedly--was that I had no way of knowing whether or not the AKKI represented anything "revolutionary," but that I found nothing of the sort in what you folks wrote, and that I was more than a little suspicious about the personal attacks and the reluctance to explain exactly what was going on. I might add that I also haven't seen anything in various video presentations, or read anything in these discussions, that would lead me to think that I'd be seeing anything more than good kenpo, well-taught and well-practiced.

    As for rushing off onto somebody else's mat, no, sorry. I see your point, of course, but life's short and I do on occasion like to do other things. I might make the same comment: whoever you've worked out with (and perhaps some specifics would help?) it certainly isn't the beasts I have to deal with. Yes, I recall Mr. Jacob's comments on Clyde. Let's just say that apparently the feeling was mutual.

    More importantly, I don't claim to be ahura-mazda's gift to martial arts--a good thing, too, considering my talents and abilities. So, I'll be fine if my kenpo isn't what you think yours is--and anyway, it so happens that I have some pretty first-rate people to study with myself, and a whole world of things to learn right in my own benighted area: summer projects, finish that damn Frantzis book! learn Long 7!!

    I do claim to know a fair amount about teaching. One observation I'd make is that teachers teach, whether or not students like it--oh, they may not be teaching what students fantasize they need to learn, they may not be able to get through the shell of stupidity, but teachers teach. They may have to deal with unprepared students, dumb students, malicious students, whatever--but teachers teach. I happen to have had a good selection of extraordinary teachers--that's what they do.

    I'm glad you found a way to advance. I'd ask three things, if I may: are you so very sure that the revolution wasn't INSIDE you rather than outside? is it possible that what you found, "elsewhere," allowed you to go back and better understand what you were doing in the first place? And are you absolutely dead certain that your own teachers aren't just getting you to take their own strong development--their Way, if you like--for your own?

  6. #26
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    Smile Re: Anyone care to answer some of this?

    Quote Originally Posted by rmcr
    As for rushing off onto somebody else's mat, no, sorry. I see your point, of course, but life's short and I do on occasion like to do other things. I might make the same comment: whoever you've worked out with (and perhaps some specifics would help?) it certainly isn't the beasts I have to deal with. Yes, I recall Mr. Jacob's comments on Clyde. Let's just say that apparently the feeling was mutual.
    ?
    Specifics as to who I have worked out with since you asked, I spent 4 years at Sibok Tom Kelly's school and decided my path lied elsewhere, I have gotten some training in with Mr. Tatum and Clyde, I was associated with Walter Justice's group at one point in time around the KC area (I trained under one of his black belts who was promoted to 3rd by Mr. Tatum and Clyde) Clyde was a big help and major part of my training for a couple years, I can not speak of his and Mr. Jacob's issues but only what I have dealt with first hand, Clyde offers up his help and development freely and he has his strengths, he chose to end our time as friends over who I decided to train with and rest my kenpo hat, a lose of a friend but I will survive I am sure. I have trained with Mr. Connolly, Sean Carey both great AKKI instructors Mr. Connolly has done major things to change my kenpo recently. John Haag is currently my instructor in the AKKI. He is my rock to base on and his instruction, patience, and core have developed me tremendously something I have not gotten one on one from an instructor for a lng time. I probably talk to Angela daily if you need a testement as to my character or dilligence I am sure she will give you a reference. All of this has been in between working as a law enforcement officer, shift work, finishing my degree, and raising a family out in the sticks (kansas) or plains I guess. Though my lineage might not be as pure or squeeky clean as yours I honestly feel I have picked up a lot both good and bad from those I have had the opportunity to train with and given my due dilligence. Hope that helps you to understand where I come from and how I approach my training philosophy.

    Quote Originally Posted by rmcr
    I'm glad you found a way to advance. I'd ask three things, if I may: are you so very sure that the revolution wasn't INSIDE you rather than outside? is it possible that what you found, "elsewhere," allowed you to go back and better understand what you were doing in the first place? And are you absolutely dead certain that your own teachers aren't just getting you to take their own strong development--their Way, if you like--for your own?
    Yes and no to the first question, evolution does not disregard every element of the past, sure the EPAK material I had helped me understand what I was doing but the AKKI definately changed the way I moved, the approach, the intent, my speed, my power, my development of power, the dynamics of how I understood and moved. That was in the yellow material. Evolution is the same way related elements will stay close to or the same but with an improvement towards a certain goal. I adapted to something new using my old base typically that happens in an evolutionary process. Yes I think the majority was because of an external process (the new curriculum) but like anything it does have to be internalized. As to my instructors strong development being taken as my own, isn't the goal of any teacher worth a hill of beans to get a student to undestand thier methods and potentially increase thier strength beyond their own?
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    Default Re: Anyone care to answer some of this?

    I don't think I said anything about anybody's "lineage," being pure or squeaky clean, especially since I really rather dislike the whole lineage bit--intellectually speaking, I think everybody's lineage is messy and confused for reasons that you've articulated very well in terms of your own training; politically speaking, I think the whole lineage bit only reinforces Oedipal stuff, for reasons that I think you've also articulated quite well. But I also wouldn't need character references of any kind: I don't think in those terms, for one thing, simply assuming that everybody out there is at least as reliable as I am until I have some very, very good reason to think otherwise.

    Similarly, I mistrust the whole idea of, "evolution." I mean, if you actually look at current biology, "evolution," doesn't have anything to do with a goal, or even with improvement--it's not even development, it's just difference and change and contingency. But I agree with you that whatever goes on, it conserves the past (like that whole Hegelian dialectic thing), which is why I asked whether you're sure that these, "outside," and, "revolutionary," developments aren't your way of allowing yourself to discover what was always already there in the first place. I dunno; I'm just asking.

    I mean, lately I'm getting a fair amount of stick stuff from "outside," kenpo, as well as a bit of knife business, and what all that really seems to be doing is to get me to think, "Hey! dummy!! why didn't you see that before?" My guess is that, like many, I need an occasional walkabout to find out where I was in the first place.

    In other words, I think you've got it backwards: I think that the "new," material helped you see what you had in the first place. But then, you think that I've got it sideways--I haven't studied what you consider to be revolutionary, so I don't see that there are fundamental gaps in where I am. Actually, I do see a lot of these lacunae--I just don't think that they're fillable by going off to study "new," technical language with the AKKI. In fact, I strongly suspect that the, "new," stuff is in the soup always already--it's just that I can be astonishingly dense about learning in kenpo.

    I also agree about a teacher's goals. I'm just suspicious about this thing Freud called, "counter-transference:" and one way that comes out is that there is such a thing as the smothering teacher, who turns out clones rather than students. Of course, transference also comes out in students--for example, in their pig-headedness about learning new things.

    Thanks for the courteous discussion.

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Anyone care to answer some of this?

    Great, courteous discussion, and I'm sure you'll see all kinds of hate, anger, and prejudiced in my post here, but I'm LEGITIMATELY curious. In the 4 years I've been involved in kenpo, you have a history of making the "it's in there" comment, question, what have focused at the members of the AKKI. You refuse to ever go and spend an hour or two to find it all out for yourself, and you SEEM TO not want to let it go, either. Why is that? Why bother questioning them at great length, and then post things like "gee err umm ah, I'm still waiting for a reply to my question of" repeatedly, if you never plan on going and finding out for yourself? The message that I get from that, and again, no insult intended here, is that you're content with the verbal war, and sitting back implying "hooey" to all who read. I don't understand why. Why?

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Anyone care to answer some of this?

    Rm "I also agree about a teacher's goals. I'm just suspicious about this thing Freud called, "counter-transference:" and one way that comes out is that there is such a thing as the smothering teacher, who turns out clones rather than students. Of course, transference also comes out in students--for example, in their pig-headedness about learning new things."


    Well i never actually met mr parker, but i have met mr. mills and mr.jacob and to be honest if i was even close to a clone of mr.mills and mr. jacob i would be content... my goal is to be like mr. mills at some point in my life! and to do that i have to keep an open mind and do everything in my power to be like them.. thats of course my biased opinion as a firm beliver in akki kenpo, and mr.mills revolutanary system.

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    Default Re: Anyone care to answer some of this?

    Well, I believe you're certainly entitled to believe that I'm foolish to think I'm doing just fine right where I am--lots to learn, lots to do, lots to teach, with some of the very best. I happen to think that I can find all the stuff you seem to think I need so badly right in my own back yard; if that makes me Dorothy as far as you're concerned, well, them's the breaks. But then I also happen to think that at this point in my training, more technical knowledge isn't even close to what I need to work on.

    I'm afraid I've never seen this as a simple matter of some outside vs. some inside: on this thread, for example, I've repeatedly written (and meant to say) that all this looks to me like folks taking another route to finding the very same things that some of us find in other ways. I'm sorry you don't like the way I write or think about this stuff; perhaps if you'd spend more time focused on what YOU think and how you might best articulate it...

    I also stand behind my comment that there is such a thing as the smothering teacher, just as there is such a thing as what Freud called transference-love. It's a perfectly normal part of the teacher-student relation for students to have all sorts of weird thoughts about their teachers--and it is absolutely essential for good teachers to refuse to play those games, to shift away whenever students demand that the teacher hold still so they can be just like them. The point is to get students to develop THEIR kenpo, not yours.

    Otherwise, all you've got is the teacher's unconscious replicating itself everywhere. Eeew, ick.

    I'd add that it's not that I believe in the head of my school, or want to be just like him, or believe in the kenpo system. I believe I've been lucky to have had some extraordinary teachers, to have had the chance to work around some remarkable martial artists, and to learn a lot about a remarkable and extraordinary martial art....kenpo, that is.

    But I pretty much insist that that's radical, not revolutionary--still the same old story, and a pretty good one it is.

  11. #31
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    Default Re: Anyone care to answer some of this?

    RM,
    I completely agree with your statement. "I believe I've been lucky to have had some extraordinary teachers, to have had the chance to work around some remarkable martial artists, and to learn a lot about a remarkable and extraordinary martial art." I think everyone here can say they wouldn't be the martial artist that they are, without the influence of the teachers and mentors in their life. I have been very fortunate to have worked with two amazing instructors who have contributed their thoughts and insights to add to my own understanding of the art.

    I just have one quick question, I guess I don't clearly understand the definitions of radical and revolutionary. I've looked up the terms but I'm having trouble connecting the dots. Can you please explain the difference between those two terms and kenpo? I'd really appreciate it.

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    Default Re: Anyone care to answer some of this?

    I may not always agree with Robert and we have had our share of exchanges on the various forums. I do however read with interest his oppossing views on various subjects. I just wanted to thank him for hois point of view. Although I might not always agree with him I always try and keep an open ear to other ideas.

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    Default Re: Anyone care to answer some of this?

    That was awfully nice of you last two folks to say: thank you.

    If it helps, here's kinda how I understand, "radical," and, "revolutionary," two terms that--because of the politics of the 1960s--are pretty much tangled up together, these days.

    "Radical," basically has one of two meanings: a) the common usage, as in, "radical change," when you make some change at the fundamental root of things; b) the one I had in mind, which has to do with going back to the original root of things. I think that the two usages are contradictory, which I find interesting: on one hand you change things fundamentally, on the other you change things fundamentally by going back to their origins. Tied to this, there's the old discussion of, "paradigm shifts," in Thomas what's-'is-name.

    And, "revolutionary--" well, that might be a) political revolution, in the Che Guevara/Jefferson Airplane, "Volunteers," album/ Watson and Crick discovering the structure of DNA sense; b) the overthrow of all previous structures. Of course, this ALSO has a strong overtone of going back to where you started--you can't have revolution unless some Big Wheel is turning around back to where it started.

    I guess that I'm pretty dubious about most of the claims I read that one art or the other, or one training method or the other, is revolutionary or radical in ways that go beyond what Mr. Parker mapped out. No, I don't think it's true that there's no change or development or whatever beyond, say, the "Infinite Insights," books---I don't mean that at all. Instead, I think that a lot of the "revolutionary," stuff marketed in the martial arts is just that--marketing. Or, I think that it almost doesn't matter what art you do--what matters is that YOU change, that you revolt against what you have been. A lot of the thoughts I have about this in the martial arts are fused with other things--for example, Ursula K. le Guin, "The Day Before the Revolution:" "You cannot make the revolution...you can only be the revolution. It is in your heart, or it is nowhere."

    I also think that it's hard to revolt against a system that in some important ways, was never there in the first place. If Mr. Chap'el is right--and I think in a lot of ways he is--kenpo was always in a process of flux and change, without solid beginnings and without absolute fixed certainties that existed for very long. I think it was a mistake a lot of people made--at some point, they got tired of all the evolution and the change, and simply froze things in place.

    Of course, that's what I'm getting accused of doing. Nope. I simply have very different ideas about where the evolution is occurring; I am simply very doubtful about the claim of new! improved!! perfected!!! kenpo; I'm pretty sure that the kenpo I've studied for a while now is as radical and revolutionary as there is.

    As you can probably see, I'm still trying to figure this stuff out. And in a way, I don't expect ever to figure this stuff out--I expect to keep exploring permanently. A concept tied, I'm sorry to say, to some ugly historical stuff like Mao's, "permanent revolution," crap that led straight to the Cultural Revolution in which a million or so people died, and the Chinese government stifled real change for the next couple of generations.

    In other words, I'm interested in the martial arts for: a) reasonable self-defense, b) the conditioning, c) what I can find out about myself and the world, d) what I can teach others, e) maybe, what I can write.

    In other words too, I think that Mr. Parker offered what is currently just about the last word on what I'd guess I'd have to call, "external," martial arts. I think that laying more external technology on top isn't revolutionary, or radical, in any serious sense.

    But as I'm forced to say in response to your polite and reasonable question, in the end I dunno.

  14. #34
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    Default Re: Anyone care to answer some of this?

    "I guess that I'm pretty dubious about most of the claims I read that one art or the other, or one training method or the other, is revolutionary or radical in ways that go beyond what Mr. Parker mapped out. No, I don't think it's true that there's no change or development or whatever beyond, say, the "Infinite Insights," books---I don't mean that at all. Instead, I think that a lot of the "revolutionary," stuff marketed in the martial arts is just that--marketing. Or, I think that it almost doesn't matter what art you do--what matters is that YOU change, that you revolt against what you have been. A lot of the thoughts I have about this in the martial arts are fused with other things--for example, Ursula K. le Guin, "The Day Before the Revolution:" "You cannot make the revolution...you can only be the revolution. It is in your heart, or it is nowhere."

    I do agree with you rm, but i think it's important to have a good instructor pass on his good knowledge.... i agree that there are only things that one can learn on there own but you need an instructor that points you in the right direction. If one is pointed in the wrong direction then you dont learn anything thats worth learning... theres no point in learning bad habits. all the great martial artits in my opinion have learned from other great instructors Bruce lee, Ed Parker, Mr. Mills. they all learned from great instructors but found there own way to greatness, In my opinion mr mills has revolutionized epak kenpo to make people, learn faster, move better and retain more knowledge. I believe that Mr.Mills did what Mr. parker was trying to do, but now one in mr. parkers time was willing to change. i dont see anyone move(ive only seen videos of mr parker)as close to mr. parker as mr.mills. anyway im probably blabbering, but what do you think rm?

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    Default Re: Anyone care to answer some of this?

    Quote Originally Posted by rmcr
    2. I think you folks are confusing personal development and evolution, if you will, with a system. Perhaps the AKKI material helps organize those developments; I don't know. But one objection that might be made is that in completely systematizing development and evolution, you make even development and evolution subject to the complete control of whoever's designing the system. I think students need some room--it's a different approach. Better? worse? I dunno.
    I've mostly been sitting back reading this exchange. I'm glad it's going on, and for the most part... going well.
    I've got to say though that this statement, Robert, I disagree. To qualify that: I disagree with what I 'think' you are saying. If I'm understanding you correctly you are saying that if the system is 'evolved' that this leaves less room for each individual practitioner to develop...is that accurate??
    I'll proceed as though it is...

    I disagree. If the system is evolved along particular lines, as ours is, then it's merely a new vantage point from which to develop. Believe me the whole concept of each technique and set being only a lesson and point of reference is still very very much in place for us in our practice. All the time we are encouraged to first become knowledgeable and proficient in the "By the Book" ways....and then to deviate...to leave it and explore different permutations.

    Make sense??
    But then, maybe I misunderstood what you were really saying. I'll sit back and see what you say.

    Your Brother (whos glad you came here to communicate, openly....thanks)
    John
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    "Striving for success without hard work is like trying to harvest where you haven't planted"
    ~ David Bly

  16. #36
    Alan J. is offline
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    Default Re: Anyone care to answer some of this?

    RM,
    Trying to understand you better is driving me to answer your solid questions without the force of debate but rather honest opinion. Please bear with me

    "If Mr. Chap'el is right--and I think in a lot of ways he is--kenpo was always in a process of flux and change, without solid beginnings and without absolute fixed certainties that existed for very long. I think it was a mistake a lot of people made--at some point, they got tired of all the evolution and the change, and simply froze things in place."
    - I would agree with this. Mr. Mills told me his opinion being that toward the end of his life. His feeling was that Mr. Parker taught the journals and opted not to change anything (commercialy) as he knew from him that too many people would leave and be resistant and didn't want the changes to happen openly. This is exactly what happened to Mr. Parker years earlier when the the system went through changes then and people left. We as people want change in some areas and not in others. Hard to predict or plan on. I believe from I have seen Mr. Parker do insome rare film footage, vs. what he taught, I would have to say, he had a comercial system and then how he did it. I personally feel Mr. Parker did not want to go through the whole headache mess of trying to convince others why they should change. They either have an empty cup or they don't. That's what Parker told Mills(much more elaborate though) and Mills told me when I wanted to come with him. That's where I get it from. Makes sense to me anyway.

    Similarly, I mistrust the whole idea of, "evolution." I mean, if you actually look at current biology, "evolution," doesn't have anything to do with a goal, or even with improvement--it's not even development, it's just difference and change and contingency. But I agree with you that whatever goes on, it conserves the past (like that whole Hegelian dialectic thing), which is why I asked whether you're sure that these, "outside," and, "revolutionary," developments aren't your way of allowing yourself to discover what was always already there in the first place. I dunno; I'm just asking.
    I don't look at it from biology though. This i guess is the Hegelian conflict. That I think, and have felt for some time now reading your posts, is where our perception of the problem begins. I am coming from a social evolution, not biological and they are two very different things hence conflict in only the difference of definition. Mr. Parker's thoughts on kenpo, to me, are more like Modus Ponens - tradition binds one, things should always be changing, making anew and like he said, what I know about kenpo is nothing compared to what I don't know - stands to reason that some kind of evolving process must be in his first order of thinking every moment. Someone please listen to what I(Parker) am saying and carry forward to whatever is out there. Don't just change without there be some solid and practical basis for which the change is wrought.

    In other words, I think you've got it backwards: I think that the "new," material helped you see what you had in the first place. But then, you think that I've got it sideways--I haven't studied what you consider to be revolutionary, so I don't see that there are fundamental gaps in where I am. Actually, I do see a lot of these lacunae--I just don't think that they're fillable by going off to study "new," technical language with the AKKI. In fact, I strongly suspect that the, "new," stuff is in the soup always already--it's just that I can be astonishingly dense about learning in kenpo.
    It's really hard I think to judge this as you have not met with me yet on equal(private) terms for me to show you what we are doing to validate that point of view or dispell it. There is substance to back up the un-filled parts. Clyde has his technical language "gelatinous stage, and even if". There may be more. The point being, he saw a gap and tried to fill it. We are doing the same from opur point of view. If I had two hours with you privately, no taking advantage of either one, I know we could come away with more understanding. I would not be trying to sell you on the AKKI but rather this is what we did and why. No hidden agenda. I will be in Vegas in Sept. Drive up and we'll meet, just us with no pretense of anything but a sharing of the minds - not whose right or wrong. Why do I want to do this, so at least someone so vocal on these forums all over the world can at least say, "I have seen it, I understand why they are doing what they are doing." That's it.

    I also agree about a teacher's goals. I'm just suspicious about this thing Freud called, "counter-transference:" and one way that comes out is that there is such a thing as the smothering teacher, who turns out clones rather than students. Of course, transference also comes out in students--for example, in their pig-headedness about learning new things.
    Freud meant this more from a therapsit and client point of view. Whaile I agree this happense in some form in normal day to day living and forming relationships, he saw it detrimental to the therapeutic environment and rightly so, something therapist should be aware of. Generally I have seen it through teaching (counter transference) some yahoo years ago and then here comes the different person but with the same yahooyness and so I then automatically treat him differently or like the other student in a bad dream. Definietly transference works in students to teachers - father they never had, mentor kind of thing or the reverse of that. I would venture to say most are not aware of this phenomenon so it won't change much.
    Hope this helps some.
    Alan

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    Default Re: Anyone care to answer some of this?

    Now THERE'S a real discussion. Thank you.

    In reverse order, and keeping in mind that I just had a bit of steak, fries, two glasses of decent rose and a Compay Segundo album...


    First, I'm afraid Freud didn't just see transference as something incidental to analysis, or an error in analysis, or a mistake in in analysis--he saw it as an inevitable sin, a necessary mistake--as something essential to having analysis occur at all. Maybe see Jacques Lacan, "Direction of the Treatment and the Principles of its Power?" (Sorry--it's the way I think...especially with music, wine, food on board....) Maybe see, Barthes, "Writers, Intellectuals, Teachers," which should be required reading for all teachers? In martial arts, there's a real question as to whether or not you can even be a good student without a good teacher--to me, that means transference is essential to martial arts study, so students need to know what it is, so that they can watch out for the down side of what's necessary for them to learn.

    Second--apropos of social evolution, a common critique of Marx is that he believed to much in a telelogy inherent in history--that he, he thought that there was a fixed direction in which history had to go, which is what legitimated Stalin, Pol Pot, and those guys who told me that well, if the working class doesn;t know what's good for them, you just lie in their own best (i.e. socio-historical) interests. I prefer a different combo of arrogance and modesty in teachers.

    Third--sorry, can't make any pilgrimage to Vegas in Sept. Nor do I go into lion's dens signified by, "If I had two hours with you privately," in view of the structure of the rhetoric, despite disclaimers: you make the pilgrimages. I'm not your student. Yes, this paragraph's a bit edgy. So's the one it's responding to.

    Fourth--can we drop the "cup," stuff? personally, I'm quite well aware that the Goofy mug of knowledge I carry around is less than full--it'd have to be, since it's got a big crack in the bottom.

    Fifth--if the claim were simply one of a new and different vantage point, cool beans. This would allow for treating other vantages as equally worthwhile, equally valid. I'm not sure that's the claim I've been seeing.

    Sixth--again, I've had the advantage of extraordinary instructors. Trust me. And yes, I've had the advantage of a couple of instructors who move as well as Mr. Parker, though differently. And there are other martial artists who do, or who did.

    What ought to be at stake is what YOU can do, not what HE could do.

    OK, that's my routine for the moment. Thank you, again, for the discussion.

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    Default Let's really take a look at it please

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan J.
    RM,
    Trying to understand you better is driving me to answer your solid questions without the force of debate but rather honest opinion. Please bear with me


    It's really hard I think to judge this as you have not met with me yet on equal(private) terms for me to show you what we are doing to validate that point of view or dispell it. There is substance to back up the un-filled parts. Clyde has his technical language "gelatinous stage, and even if". There may be more. The point being, he saw a gap and tried to fill it. We are doing the same from opur point of view. If I had two hours with you privately, no taking advantage of either one, I know we could come away with more understanding. I would not be trying to sell you on the AKKI but rather this is what we did and why. No hidden agenda. I will be in Vegas in Sept. Drive up and we'll meet, just us with no pretense of anything but a sharing of the minds - not whose right or wrong. Why do I want to do this, so at least someone so vocal on these forums all over the world can at least say, "I have seen it, I understand why they are doing what they are doing." That's it.


    Hope this helps some.
    Alan

    Ok, I've seen my name come up in this conversation a few times, WHY?

    There are only YOUR perceived gaps, not mine. I wasn't filling them with Gelatinous and EVEN-IF, I was extending them for the advanced practicioner as the novice needs the prior Solid, Liquid, Gaseous, and Ideal, What-If, and Forumulation to wield the knowledge they have from a better vantage point.

    How much time did Mr. Mills actually spend with Mr. Parker each year, let's break it down into hours shall we? Mr. Mills lives in Wyoming, which is http://www.mapquest.com/directions/m...nston&2s=WY&2z=
    738 miles according to mapquest, quite a travel every week or month even, wouldn't you agree? I live 58 miles from the studio where I train and sometimes find it difficult to get there as much as I'd like to, much less 738 miles. Taking these factors into consideration, I don't put much faith in Mr. Mills' depth of knowledge of the Kenpo system simply because he wasn't around Mr. Parker as much as the people who lived locally. Time at the feet of the Master can yield much knowledge, those without the time will have limited amounts.

    In the ten years or so since the creation of the AKKI there's only been a limited amount of material created in that time frame, and nothing close to the amount of material in the existing curriculm of EPAK already. Certainly someone with that much knowledge would have the ability to create much more in less time, why is that?

    Mr. Mills in not a first generation Black Belt as much as you'd like to think he is and I see no need for this forum for the Mills Lineage to exist, especially since you have an existing forum for your org. already on the AKKI site.

    And Lastly, why use the term American Kenpo and use Ed Parker's name because it's certainly not what EP created? It's Paul Mills Kenpo as the training methods and material are unique to the AKKI, why not call it what it is?


    Clyde

    http://www.kenpoprofessor.com/

  19. #39
    Alan J. is offline
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    Default Re: Anyone care to answer some of this?

    Sorry but no responses from me. All you seem to want is to argue for arguments sake and I will have no part of it. Your as stubborn as they come and any attempt otherwise is fruitless.
    I'm out,
    Alan

  20. #40
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    Default Re: Anyone care to answer some of this?

    In the ten years or so since the creation of the AKKI there's only been a limited amount of material created in that time frame, and nothing close to the amount of material in the existing curriculm of EPAK already.


    EPAK- 30 years
    154 techniques (based on 24 technique system)

    7 long forms

    3 short forms

    15 sets

    ****Not all were created by Mr. Parker.



    AKKI- 10 years

    102 techniques officially released so far (all reworked), with the next level of brown containing roughly 20 techniques as well (which would make the total about 122 and counting). Oh yeah this also doesnít take into account the 1st level knife and club techniques that have already been released, or the 2nd level knife and club material which is being taught and refined but hasnít quite been finalized.

    3 Long forms (Almost completely reworked)

    2 short forms (i.e. the introductions to forms 1 and 2. There may be an intro to 3 in the works, but Iím not privy to that info if there is.)

    17 NEW Sets: Included but not limited to 5 knife sets, 5 club sets, Two man Empty hand, Centerline, Trapping, Universal 1 & 2. This is in addition to the older sets.



    I may have miscounted some of the AKKI material techs and sets, but that's what I can recall off the top of my head. It should be noted that this is not meant as a slight to Mr. Parker, anyone in his family, or anyone who practices EPAK. This is merely a reply to a statement made by Clyde to illustrate the depth of material that Mr. Mills and the AKKI have released in their very short existence.

    Mr. Mills in not a first generation Black Belt as much as you'd like to think he is and I see no need for this forum for the Mills Lineage to exist, especially since you have an existing forum for your org. already on the AKKI site.


    Are you sure you're not just upset because we have more than 4 times the number of posts found in the next largest lineage forum?



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