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Thread: Rolling Thunder

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    Default Rolling Thunder

    I have a question about Rolling Thunder. In the video clip Mr. Jacob's attacker is in the mounted position and already posted (on his hands and knees). When practicing this technique in the studio do you assume that your opponent is already posted or do you buck and post him as a part of the technique?

    http://www.akki.com/_videos/index.htm

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    Default Re: Rolling Thunder

    Great question.

    The posted hands is just one point of reference in doing the technique. Obviously the opponent in the mounted postion could place his hands in many different places to stabilize the top position.

    In addition as everyone knows the person from the mounted position can throw punches. In this case I like to utilize the buck/ hip heist you are refering to disturb their balance so they feel the need to post their hands.

    John

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    Default Re: Rolling Thunder

    Being mounted is a really sucky position to be in. This generally means one of three things: 1) You screwed up and found yourself on the ground on your back 2) you are so exhausted that your opponent was able to overpower you and gain the mount position or 3) your opponent is technically superior to you, which if this is the case YOU'RE SCREWED.

    The success of Rolling Thunder, like any other grappling technique, is predicated on the fact that you have a chance to set up and take control of a few different variables. If you aren't able to control these few variables then simply refer to the last part of statement 3 above.

    By bucking the hips you can possibly move your opponents body weight forward causing him to have to post in order to maintain the mount position. This serves two purposes: First, if your opponent is being forced to post then he isn't pummeling your face into the concrete. Second, this movement is creating room for you to move and setup the sweep.

    There are a number of technical aspects to keep in mind, such as the placement of your hands and feet, the timing for the push, the way in which you destroy your opponents balance, and the way you control your opponents body so that he doesn't just continue the roll and end up right back in the mount.

    One thing to keep in mind is the way in which the defender (i.e. guy on bottom) uses the arm to extend out and push the attacker off into the sweep. While working out with Fastmover one day I tried to execute the sweep at what I felt was a good time. Well, he simply rocked back and let me extend my arm which he locked into an arm bar while I was laying on my stomach trying to figure out what had gone wrong. Now obviously you probably don't want to attempt an armbar on the street, but the same arm leverage can be used to move the defender either onto his stomach without the armbar (i.e. the attacker now has your back and your face is in the dirt) or onto his side effectively pinning the pushing arm (this leaves your face wide open and you in a defenseless position. Either situation has you revisiting the last part of statement three from above.

    When first learning the technique execute the sweep from the posted position without resistance. After you feel comfortable with the sequence add a little resistance. Finally, have your opponent start in the mount and attack you from here, either throwing punches, elbows, or trying to choke you out. This will help you develop your game plan. (Just be careful you guys don't kill each other)

    I personally love this technique but the end user needs to understand that such a sequence of movements, like many other techs, requires a little understanding of leverage and setup.

    Good question.

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    Default Re: Rolling Thunder

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpo Yahoo
    Being mounted is a really sucky position to be in. This generally means one of three things: 1) You screwed up and found yourself on the ground on your back 2) you are so exhausted that your opponent was able to overpower you and gain the mount position or 3) your opponent is technically superior to you, which if this is the case YOU'RE SCREWED.
    I agree with the rest of your post except this one thing. You could also wake-up in a mounted position. Perhaps your attacker broke into your home in the middle of the night while you were asleep?

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    Default Re: Rolling Thunder

    One more thing I would like to add... We work on ground fighting at Bryan Hawkins Studio on a fairly regular basis, and we have some techniques very similar to this one. I like them. Which is what sparked my interest in this when I saw it on Mr. Mills web site. Thank you for your responses.


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    Default Re: Rolling Thunder

    I agree with the rest of your post except this one thing. You could also wake-up in a mounted position. Perhaps your attacker broke into your home in the middle of the night while you were asleep?
    Please reread the post
    Being mounted is a really sucky position to be in. This GENERALLY means one of three things:

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    Default Re: Rolling Thunder

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpo Yahoo
    Please reread the post
    I read the post. I agreed with your statement. I only wanted to add that GENERALLY there is another scenario in which someone would find themselves mounted. I apologize for any misunderstanding.


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    Default Re: Rolling Thunder

    The substance of the thread revolved around the appropriate execution of a grappling technique. You can argue any and every scenario possible if you want to, I simply listed the TOP 3 reasons for why you would find yourself mounted in a fight. I personally don't care how you find yourself in this position so long as you can get out of it.

    Besides if someone has made it that far into your house without you hearing a thing and they have decided to mount you... well at this point you are so far behind you'll be lucky to get out alive.

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    Default Re: Rolling Thunder

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Lear
    One more thing I would like to add... We work on ground fighting at Bryan Hawkins Studio on a fairly regular basis, and we have some techniques very similar to this one. I like them. Which is what sparked my interest in this when I saw it on Mr. Mills web site. Thank you for your responses.

    Hey Billy, I think it would be nice to open this topic up a little. Since you guys are working some ground fighting at your school, I was wondering if you would share what other Kenpo ideas are being used on the ground?

    Hopefully we can open up the discussion and get others involved.

    John

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    Default Re: Rolling Thunder

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpo Yahoo
    The substance of the thread revolved around the appropriate execution of a grappling technique. You can argue any and every scenario possible if you want to, I simply listed the TOP 3 reasons for why you would find yourself mounted in a fight. I personally don't care how you find yourself in this position so long as you can get out of it.
    Kenpo Yahoo,

    In my opinion you listed the top three reasons why "you" would find yourself mounted in a fight. I was thinking more in terms of a self-defense situation not a fight... In which case the common scenario that someone (most likely a woman) would find themselves in this position would be an attempt at rape.

    I'm also a little more concearned with how you end up in this position for a couple of reasons.

    1.) Environmental considerations.

    2.) The nature of the attack. (Because, attackers in the real world generally don't like to sit on you unless they plan on doing something while they are there.)

    3.) Is the technique simple enough to do if you did end up getting knocked to the ground in a fight?

    The substance of the thread (please go back and read my original post) is centered on how you practice this technique in the studio and what your attacker's starting position is when you do so.

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    Default Re: Rolling Thunder

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Lear
    Kenpo Yahoo,

    In my opinion you listed the top three reasons why "you" would find yourself mounted in a fight. I was thinking more in terms of a self-defense situation not a fight... In which case the common scenario that someone (most likely a woman) would find themselves in this position would be an attempt at rape.

    I'm also a little more concearned with how you end up in this position for a couple of reasons.

    1.) Environmental considerations.

    2.) The nature of the attack. (Because, attackers in the real world generally don't like to sit on you unless they plan on doing something while they are there.)

    3.) Is the technique simple enough to do if you did end up getting knocked to the ground in a fight?

    The substance of the thread (please go back and read my original post) is centered on how you practice this technique in the studio and what your attacker's starting position is when you do so.
    The technique Rolling Thunder is meant to cover the worst case situation throughout the dimensional stages of defense. It was incorporated into the system to teach someone how to fight off their back utilizing a hip heist; which can be extrapolated to other positions when on your back. For example in positions such as; across the side, Knee mount, and side head lock.

    I am also a big believer in developing the skills enough to avoid being mounted. However in situations were it can not be avoided, I have found the base hip heist type move to be the most simple in changing positions and gaining an advantage in the situation. If it is unsuccessful it at least helps in setting other moves up. Obviously the hip heist is not the only thing someone could do in this situation. Go to any grappling class and the hip heist is one of the first things they teach on your back, I can tell you this first hand. Since you do similar moves maybe you could share what your doing?

    It is also interesting that you bring up a rape type situation. In most cases the man wants the woman on her back placing himself between her legs. Also known as inside her gaurd. Again maybe you would be willing in discussing some of your ideas for a woman defending herself from this position since you are interested in real life situations?

    So far you have asked a lot of questions within the discussion but seem to be withholding answers. I think your point of view is important since you work on the ground a lot yourself and come from a Kenpo back ground.

    John

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    Default Re: Rolling Thunder

    Quote Originally Posted by Fastmover
    The technique Rolling Thunder is meant to cover the worst case situation throughout the dimensional stages of defense. It was incorporated into the system to teach someone how to fight off their back utilizing a hip heist; which can be extrapolated to other positions when on your back. For example in positions such as; across the side, Knee mount, and side head lock.

    I am also a big believer in developing the skills enough to avoid being mounted. However in situations were it can not be avoided, I have found the base hip heist type move to be the most simple in changing positions and gaining an advantage in the situation. If it is unsuccessful it at least helps in setting other moves up. Obviously the hip heist is not the only thing someone could do in this situation. Go to any grappling class and the hip heist is one of the first things they teach on your back, I can tell you this first hand. Since you do similar moves maybe you could share what your doing?

    It is also interesting that you bring up a rape type situation. In most cases the man wants the woman on her back placing himself between her legs. Also known as inside her gaurd. Again maybe you would be willing in discussing some of your ideas for a woman defending herself from this position since you are interested in real life situations?

    So far you have asked a lot of questions within the discussion but seem to be withholding answers. I think your point of view is important since you work on the ground a lot yourself and come from a Kenpo back ground.

    John
    John,

    I'd say ythat the end result in a rapescenario is that he wants to be in between her legs, but that doens't mean he'll start from that position. Seems to me that a rapist might mount his victim and beat/threaten her before positioning himself between her legs.

    As for what we do... I'll put that up a little bit later tonight. It's dinner time right now.


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    Default Re: Rolling Thunder

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Lear
    John,

    I'd say ythat the end result in a rapescenario is that he wants to be in between her legs, but that doens't mean he'll start from that position. Seems to me that a rapist might mount his victim and beat/threaten her before positioning himself between her legs.

    As for what we do... I'll put that up a little bit later tonight. It's dinner time right now.

    Totally Agree with you. As a side note my sister-in-law fought a rapist off for more the 20 minutes until police arrived and stopped it. She was working in a video store and after closing a man had hid himself in the bathroom. A another woman dropping some videos off saw the attack and called 911 thankfully. They did end up on the ground but she did avoid getting raped.

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    Default Re: Rolling Thunder

    Your initial post was a question about the specific starting point of one of our techniques and how we trained it. If you wanted to talk about specific scenarios and how they relate to women's self-defense then why not just come out and say it? If you are a little more specific in what you're looking for you might be surprised with what you find.

    Now to address some of your concerns:
    1.) Environmental considerations.
    Be more specific. What is it that concerns you? Obviously rolling around on anything other than a mat will hurt. Especially if we're talking about loose gravel or the usual street residue, but if rolling around on the street will save your life then a little bit of pain is better than being dead. Don't you think so?
    2.) The nature of the attack. (Because, attackers in the real world generally don't like to sit on you unless they plan on doing something while they are there.)
    But isn't this the scenario you presented? I have a hard time believing that if someone has both the skill and inclination to surreptitiously enter your place of residence, walk into your bedroom and mount you, that (if you're a male) you won't end up dead (think about it for a second, if you had the option would you give someone the chance to fight back?). If you are a woman and the attacker has made it this far, to the point of having you mounted before you wake up, then you are probably going to wake up to a brutal beating or to the sound of an attacker with a weapon telling you what he wants you to do (both of which have serious immediate and lasting psychological effects).

    I agree attackers don't tend to wait to see what you will do next, that includes waking up to fight. However, if you are awake then you might consider bucking your hips to knock your attacker off balance so they can't punch you. You may have to try this a couple of times before you are able to execute the roll. This was addressed in an earlier post.
    3.) Is the technique simple enough to do if you did end up getting knocked to the ground in a fight?
    YES and NO. It's like anything else you learn. If you train it appropriately and in a realistic manner then you will have a higher probability of success. But make no mistake, being mounted is a very bad position to be in and a very hard position to escape from. Like any other technique, someone who knows just a little bit can easily prevent you from executing your defense. This is especially true if your plan of attack requires you to RESPOND to what the attacker gives you rather than being able to proactively create what you need to execute your sequence of maneuvers.

    The substance of the thread (please go back and read my original post) is centered on how you practice this technique in the studio and what your attacker's starting position is when you do so.
    I did and there isn't one mention of how this all relates to women's self-defense. There are different variable to address in this particular scenario as the attackers intent is a little different. Just state what you are looking for and people will post accordingly.

    It's my personal opinion that a woman would be better served learning some form of grappling (with a minor emphasis on striking) rather than an art like kenpo that places a great deal of emphasis on stand-up striking. This is more in line with the type of attack that a female might experience. John and I have spoke in length on several occasions about some of the things that women could do to fight back in such a situation, but despite what any of us think I hope we can all agree that any woman who survives such an encounter, regardless of the outcome, should be fully commended and given all the support she needs to carry on with her life.

    Billy, what is it that you are specifically looking for?
    Last edited by Kenpo Yahoo; 04-25-2005 at 12:46 AM.

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    Default Re: Rolling Thunder

    I think it is interesting that we have taken this discussion about Rolling Thunder into speaking about womens self defense. The AKKI has a large female membership which is a little unusual for the standard martial arts association. I think there are a number of reason for this but one important element is the re-focused curriculum that addresses their self defense needs. One reason the new curriculum was developed was to provide a vocabulary of motion that increased the level of mental and physical retention to proper body mechanics. It was also done to address unique situations not covered within the classic EPAK system without extrapolating motion or reading between the lines. The technique Rolling Thunder is an associated movement of the stand up technique of Thrusting Prongs. On that thought one other aspect that has been enhanced with the new curriculum is the Family Grouping/ Associated Movement idea, which could be a topic to itself.

    I am sure that not everyone agrees with the AKKI approach and I am fine with this. Thankfully there are many different groups with teaching philosophies to met their needs. I think we have done some positive things in helping women with their self defense needs and Rolling Thunder is just one example. Our large female membership echos this thought.

    Take Care

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    Default Re: Rolling Thunder

    Kenpo Yahoo,

    I agree with quite a few of your points. The original point of this post, however, was not to discuss how you got there (you brought that into the discussion), but rather what the starting position is when training the technique in the studio.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpo Yahoo
    Being mounted is a really sucky position to be in. This generally means one of three things: 1) You screwed up and found yourself on the ground on your back 2) you are so exhausted that your opponent was able to overpower you and gain the mount position or 3) your opponent is technically superior to you, which if this is the case YOU'RE SCREWED.
    I decided to persue this line of discussion, because, I felt there were some other important reasons that someone may find themselves mounted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpo Yahoo
    Obviously rolling around on anything other than a mat will hurt. Especially if we're talking about loose gravel or the usual street residue, but if rolling around on the street will save your life then a little bit of pain is better than being dead. Don't you think so?.
    No. Rolling around on a matress, grass, or carpet doesn't hurt that much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpo Yahoo
    I have a hard time believing that if someone has both the skill and inclination to surreptitiously enter your place of residence, walk into your bedroom and mount you, that (if you're a male) you won't end up dead (think about it for a second, if you had the option would you give someone the chance to fight back?). If you are a woman and the attacker has made it this far, to the point of having you mounted before you wake up, then you are probably going to wake up to a brutal beating or to the sound of an attacker with a weapon telling you what he wants you to do (both of which have serious immediate and lasting psychological effects).
    I agree with you to an extent. I 100% agree that the likelyhood of someone mounting a man to kill him in his sleep is a little far fetched. A female on the other hand is a diffrent story. Statistically most female victims of rape know their attackers (date rape). Then there are other possibple scenarios as well...

    I didn't start this discussion to invalidate the technique. My sole purpose in posting my question was to gather a more informed opinion of the technique. I think the technique is a cool one, and would probably start from the hip heist/buck as Fast Mover stated in his reply to my initial post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpo Yahoo
    I agree attackers don't tend to wait to see what you will do next, that includes waking up to fight. However, if you are awake then you might consider bucking your hips to knock your attacker off balance so they can't punch you. You may have to try this a couple of times before you are able to execute the roll. This was addressed in an earlier post.
    I 100% agree with you on this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpo Yahoo
    YES and NO. It's like anything else you learn. If you train it appropriately and in a realistic manner then you will have a higher probability of success. But make no mistake, being mounted is a very bad position to be in and a very hard position to escape from. Like any other technique, someone who knows just a little bit can easily prevent you from executing your defense. This is especially true if your plan of attack requires you to RESPOND to what the attacker gives you rather than being able to proactively create what you need to execute your sequence of maneuvers.
    I agree with you about this too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpo Yahoo
    I did and there isn't one mention of how this all relates to women's self-defense. There are different variable to address in this particular scenario as the attackers intent is a little different. Just state what you are looking for and people will post accordingly.
    I might be reading this wrong, but is this comment meant to be sarcastic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpo Yahoo
    It's my personal opinion that a woman would be better served learning some form of grappling (with a minor emphasis on striking) rather than an art like kenpo that places a great deal of emphasis on stand-up striking. This is more in line with the type of attack that a female might experience. John and I have spoke in length on several occasions about some of the things that women could do to fight back in such a situation, but despite what any of us think I hope we can all agree that any woman who survives such an encounter, regardless of the outcome, should be fully commended and given all the support she needs to carry on with her life.
    I agree with you to a point on this. I think a woman should also be well vresed in striking with her natural weapons as well (eye gouges, ripping, tearing, etc...)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpo Yahoo
    Billy, what is it that you are specifically looking for?
    I found what I was looking for when Fastmover responded to my post. I decided to post a response to you in order to further the discussion. Since then you've tried to impose your perspective upon me in a manner that would suggest any of my replies/follow-up questions have no validity (or less validity than yours). No problem. The answer is simple... I have no interest in discussing this further.

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    Default Re: Rolling Thunder

    No problem. The answer is simple... I have no interest in discussing this further.
    Then have a great kenpo day.

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    Default Re: Rolling Thunder

    I've been out from work for the past two days so I'm just now coming into this post.

    I love Rolling Thunder, I find it a very interesting technique with lots of cool motions in it. I saw some posting earlier about Guard position and just wanted to throw out that we (in my school) use the end of this technique as a method of passing the guard to the outside and ending the defender with a rear mount on the attacker. For self-defense I am not a fan of this but we have some guys that are interested in MMA fighting and thus this works well for them.

    For guard passing through the inside we use Twisted Thunder. The end of the technique that is. As you are using those knees it is really simple to just pass on through instead of retreating. Again, I want to stress this is for the guys and gals who want to grapple MMA style. For self-defense I always tell the students be like a hitman, get in and get out.

    These guard passes are just ideas for other peoples to have fun with.

    Tim Kulp
    Westminster, MD

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    Default Re: Rolling Thunder

    Could someone provide the written description of this technique?
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    Default Re: Rolling Thunder

    Quote Originally Posted by hollywood1340
    Could someone provide the written description of this technique?
    I'd say stop into a local AKKI school and check it out. Tough to figure things out from just reading and often there is misinterpretation. I'm not sure where one is around you but check out www.akki.com to find who to contact for your state.

    Tim

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