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Thread: Club Set

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    Default Club Set

    I'm starting to break some ground on the AKKI Club Curriculum-which leads me to ask-at what level do most schools start teaching the "Club Stuff"?

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    Default Re: Club Set

    2nd Black, but I've suggested moving it up so that may change.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    jfarnsworth is offline Parker / Planas Lineage
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    Default Re: Club Set

    Are you talking about the specific "club set"?

    Or are you talking about form 7 or just defenses or offensive moves for clubs?

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    Default Re: Club Set

    Quote Originally Posted by jfarnsworth
    Are you talking about the specific "club set"?

    Or are you talking about form 7 or just defenses or offensive moves for clubs?
    I don't know about form 7 but in the AKKI it's all tied in to the Club Curriculum. The manual I bought at our last seminar covers Single and Double Sticks, Principles and Concepts, Tech's, Drills, and Sets.
    Plus Master Keys of the Club, the Survival Mindset, and Strategies and Tactics. All of these we have to learn to get our Level One Club Certification.

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    jfarnsworth is offline Parker / Planas Lineage
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    Default

    Ok, so you are probably talking about escrima training then rather than Kenpo, right?

    I know that the serrada (<sp?) system has different levels of stick fighting which in turn we call clubs.

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    Default Re: Club Set

    Quote Originally Posted by jfarnsworth
    Ok, so you are probably talking about escrima training then rather than Kenpo, right?

    I know that the serrada (<sp?) system has different levels of stick fighting which in turn we call clubs.
    Now I'm not sure about that. I should check with my instructor. From what I understand at the moment, AKKI has borrowed heavily from Escrima and Kali. Mr. Mills has developed a curriculum that covers a LOT of ground when it comes to the Clubs. It's definitely Kenpo. Our "intro" is a like Short 1,(with clubs) I think.
    I have to admit that it's difficult to explain where EPAK terminology is used.

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    Alan J. is offline
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    Default Re: Club Set

    All the motion in the club curriculum can be found in the empty hand motion and more importantly the internalization patterns mr. Mills has developed for the AKKI. You have been misled somewhere that we borrow from escrima. By the same logic, Mr. Parker borrowed from Shotokan on punching and Tae Kwon Do for kicking. There are similarites in motion in every system but that does not mean they borrrow. Gracie and collegiate wrestling are similar in some ways but that does not mean they borrow from each other.
    If we were to go through every move in the club system( and knife for that matter), I can show you where all of it is in our motion/internalization patterns. It's not the sequence but how we execute our motion is the key. The same with the empty hands. Learning an advanced level technique does not make your motion become better. It's having an instructor who knows how to initiate and execute the motion which makes one better.
    Hope that helps clear some confusion. Also, I start teaching some of it around blue/Green belt. But that is me.

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    Default Re: Club Set

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan J.
    All the motion in the club curriculum can be found in the empty hand motion and more importantly the internalization patterns mr. Mills has developed for the AKKI. You have been misled somewhere that we borrow from escrima. By the same logic, Mr. Parker borrowed from Shotokan on punching and Tae Kwon Do for kicking. There are similarities in motion in every system but that does not mean they borrow. Gracie and collegiate wrestling are similar in some ways but that does not mean they borrow from each other.
    If we were to go through every move in the club system( and knife for that matter), I can show you where all of it is in our motion/internalization patterns. It's not the sequence but how we execute our motion is the key. The same with the empty hands. Learning an advanced level technique does not make your motion become better. It's having an instructor who knows how to initiate and execute the motion which makes one better.
    Hope that helps clear some confusion. Also, I start teaching some of it around blue/Green belt. But that is me.
    Thank you for posting Mr. Jacobs. I had the honor of attending one of your seminars last March.
    Ouch!
    I definitely recognize what I'm beginning to learn in our AKKI Club Curriculum. Mr. Ence did and awesome seminar and with the help of Mr. Brumby, I started to develop an interest in the Clubs.
    What I'm attempting to communicate here is understanding what we in the AKKI study and at what rank we BEGIN to study as differentiated in other EPAK systems.
    So far I've found that some systems within EPAK start teaching this material at 2nd Black, or Form 7.
    Where as the AKKI begins at blue/green as an intro, and I'm guessing brown (where I am now)one really gets into it.
    Once again, Mr. Jacobs, I appreciate the input, and, humbly ask that you correct me where I'm wrong or need help on this issue.

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    Alan J. is offline
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    Default Re: Club Set

    Just want ot clear up any confusion. Many THINK or SUPPOSE we in the AKKI take this or that from other things but it simply is not true. There are always cross overs in motion. Our guide is principles and not techniques. With that said, when the student has enough principles of motion learned and tha base of the system of motion learned (all sides of form one in the AKKI) then one could start teaching aspects of the club material. Single heart and double heart are great to start with. Also the the two man club drills are essential. With the knowlegde of form one, club set phase one and two can be taught.

    I really don't think you were wrong nor do I like implying that. Some just get misinformed and they tell two friends ...and so , and so on, and so on... Stay after it, your doing good.
    Alan

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    Default Re: Club Set

    Thank you Mr. Jacobs. I'm very pleased with the AKKI and I can agree that we do move differently than most Kenpoists.
    Here's a question.
    What are some of our common ties? I understand that between Mr. Mills, Mr. Ence, and yourself, that the AKKI continues to evolve. But what are some of the common themes that would allow other Kenpoists to cross-over to the AKKI?

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    Default Re: Club Set

    we usually offer club courses to any rank who wants to do the material. you can see a big difference in the blue/green belts though. The club requires a certain degree of mobility in your basics which means you've got to have them a little better than 'okay'. So where I think you could start the weapons material at any rank, I think you see it really move around Blue/Green.

    We require club certification for 1st Brown in our school. That way we make sure the student is exposed by the time they are dealing with the more intricate (sp?) AKKI motions presented in 1st and 2nd Brown.

    Tim Kulp
    Westminster, MD

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    Default Re: Club Set

    Quote Originally Posted by cloak13

    We require club certification for 1st Brown in our school. That way we make sure the student is exposed by the time they are dealing with the more intricate (sp?) AKKI motions presented in 1st and 2nd Brown.

    Tim Kulp
    Westminster, MD
    According to the spell-check on my google tool bar, intricate is spelled right, LOL!
    Some schools don't require club set until after black. How much of the club set does your school require for first brown?

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    Default Re: Club Set

    A simple answer to your question about cross over and to your question regarding club set, Mr. Parker stated "Don't get caught up in the sequence of motion, but the principles of motion." The AKKI embraces this line of thinking. It's our execution that sets us apart from many, not our techniques.

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    Default Re: Club Set

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan J.
    It's our execution that sets us apart from many, not our techniques.
    Amen to that and very well said sir!

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    Default Re: Club Set

    Quote Originally Posted by Roadrunner
    Amen to that and very well said sir!
    That's very close to the answer I'm looking for. But, and through this discussion, I think what I'm trying to ask is: "How much of our AKKI Club Set is the same as Mr. Parker's and traditional EPAK systems, what were the "old" prerequisites as apposed to what we do.
    And, just how far have we come to be what the AKKI is today?

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    Alan J. is offline
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    Default Re: Club Set

    The EPAK club set is not very similar once you have done both. They bothe incorporate the form one base pattern - 12,9,3,6 o'clock. We use form one and blocking set blocking/striking angles and footwork for the club set phase one and two. Phase three is another animal. Two man club and knife drill are nothing more than the blocking set done with weapons.
    As far as EPAK club material, there is no curriculum put togheter like what we have. It is taught in the technique system and form seven. It's not put toghether like what we have. Had Mr. Parker still been alive, I bet he would have addressed it more. The motion and principles are there but it does not teach one how to really explode with a club.
    One of our seniors, Dan Selloroli went to the Dog Brothers tournament/gathering in which he scored the fastest time in hitting with combinations. They were floored because here is a guy who does not come from a strict club school/system mentality and out hit those guys. They were very impressed with his motion. Dan simply moved and executed the way we do in the AKKI. Got to hand it to the Dog Brothers, they gave respect when it was earned.

    The AKKI was moving as the AKKI when we were still in the IKKA. We were just learning how Mr. Mills executes the IKKA techniques. Once we formed in Sept. 97, the techniques were changed to accomodated our way of moving and also address some different ideas that incoporate "speed, simplicity, and surprise." This is taken from Mr. Mills' dad while working in the Hoover adminsitration in the FBI in Vegas. This was during the beginning of Vegas and mob build up. Very cutting edge tactics Hoover had in place. Still that way. We look at things in that light with all our motion. I feel it keeps us constantly in a state of improvement/innovation.
    Alan

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    Default Re: Club Set

    I have heard of the Dog Brothers. They train with sticks and clubs and are really hardcore. For our guy to use AKKI club methods and show those guys up really makes a statement.
    One thing I noticed the other day. We had a small class so Frank (another brown at our school) and I worked with what we knew as far as Phase One, Two, and some drills. Later, Mr. Newlon, our instructor started introducing us to Phase Three ("a whole different animal" is correct!). Anyway, after working with the Clubs for awhile, we did some tech's. We both had a lot more fluidity in the tech's we did that we both had to consciously slow down to keep from hurting each other!

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    Default Re: Club Set

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikael151
    According to the spell-check on my google tool bar, intricate is spelled right, LOL!
    Some schools don't require club set until after black. How much of the club set does your school require for first brown?
    We only require Phase 1 and 2 but strongly encourage 3. I think we will be including 3 in to our requirements as soon as all the instructors have a good grip on it. or atleast a semi-decent grip

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    Default Re: Club Set

    Yeah. LOL! A good grip is important. I was sweating a lot and sent one a club flying across the studio. Luckily it was a day class and only three of us were there.

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    Default Re: Club Set

    Quote Originally Posted by cloak13
    we usually offer club courses to any rank who wants to do the material. you can see a big difference in the blue/green belts though. The club requires a certain degree of mobility in your basics which means you've got to have them a little better than 'okay'. So where I think you could start the weapons material at any rank, I think you see it really move around Blue/Green.

    ...

    Tim Kulp
    Westminster, MD
    Our instructor starts us out with sticks right at yellow belt. He reasoning is thus, I teach you a technique/principle at yellow belt and you are able to apply it and understand at level of knowledge a yellow belt has. As you move up and progress through your training your knowledge and skill improves. If I introduce you to the weapon from the beginning then, when your reach say, Brown Belt, you will move with that weapon like a brown should be, i.e. naturally. You are covering your awkward period earlier. All the material you will learn builds upon itself. Why should I hand you something at brown belt and start over again when I can be teaching you basics know.

    IMHO, I have to agree with the other posters in the simple fact that the motions and principles taught for the empty hand movements are merely being extended when a weapon is introduced. Same principles, different range.
    "Change is not necessary...Survival is not mandatory" - W. Edward Deming

    "When I hit....I hit the whole enchilada" - Master David Leung

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