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Thread: conquering shield

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    Default Re: conquering shield

    I been ruminating about this thread, trying to figger out what's bugging me, and it just came clear. Basics.

    Not only are there significant issues with the nature and environment of the attack...but the dialogue about them was sticking in my craw for some reason. Its this:

    This technique should be absolutely devastating. We should see a broken arm, and blown knee, a broken nose, raked corneas, torn lower eylids, and degloving injuries to the face as it overlays the skull.

    And while I have seen prolly easily over hundreds of people practice or show this technique (being a forms judge in tournies, and how many kenpoka do Short 3), I have yet to see anyone move with the authority and ownership of their basics to make me believe thay will do anything to a larger aggressor in an enclosed and tight space with their shots, but piss them off, unbalance them a little, and bow them forward with the elbow cancellation.

    The basics comprising the tech are just too commonly too weak to introduce the level of injury that the movements presumably dictate. Also, no one has addressed that level of violence for a single attacker. But that takes us back to environment and nature of the attack, as well as thematic similarities this tech shares with Circling the Horizon, and similar techs.
    Clear mind, clear movement. Mastery of the Arts is mastery over the Self. That in this moment, this motion, the thoughts, memories, impulses and passions that cloud the mind must yield to the clarity of purpose, and purity of motion.

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    Default Re: conquering shield

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    I been ruminating about this thread, trying to figger out what's bugging me, and it just came clear. Basics.
    Here's the basics, as I understand them for this technique.

    Right knife edge kick
    Wide Kneel Stance
    Inward Downward Elbow
    Side Horse Stance
    Upward Elbow
    Neutral Bow Stance
    Downward Heel Palm / Claw


    With the Knife Edge Kick, we execute a middle knuckle chip on the outside of the aggressor's arm as we load the right hand high. We do not execute an inward strike on the arm, because the line of travel is the wrong direction.

    Also, at the beginning of the technique, there is a counter-grab, that remains through the entire sequence.

    None of these basics appear to be particularly challenging. What I see is not nearly enough UP-DOWN-UP-DOWN in the execution of this technique. It is as if the students are afraid to actually do a wide kneel.

    I also believe the kick is not a particularly strong kick in this technique ~ starting as it does from a normal position. It does have the advantage of going to a target that is inherently weak, I think.

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    Default Re: conquering shield

    I think it would be good to start a thread, or a series of threads, which examine in detail the actual basics. Stances, footwork, blocks, parries, strikes and kicks, etc. similar to these threads about the techniques.
    "To be, rather than to seem"

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    Default Re: conquering shield

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkC View Post
    I think it would be good to start a thread, or a series of threads, which examine in detail the actual basics. Stances, footwork, blocks, parries, strikes and kicks, etc. similar to these threads about the techniques.
    A search on "Basics" will find some very old threads on this topic, if I am not mistaken.

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    Default Re: conquering shield

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan View Post
    ... Interestin "what if", but I would still say that a.) you cannot step back with your left foot to regain a base, and b.) his left arm will immediately abduct as he strikes. ...
    No one called me on this mistake- that should have read "adduct"- which leads me to believe that most are not familiar with my terminology. Either that, or most of you have the good sense to ignore me!

    abduct- when an extremity is extended, or straightened

    adduct- when an extremety is flexed, or folded back on or towards itself

    As he throws the punch, his "straight' arm will fold, pulling you towards him (and his oncoming fist) very violently. In fact, since this act counterballances his punch, it will occur with the same amount of violence and force as the punch.

    This means the entire assault is very dynamic.

    "Even if" he pins you against a wall and holds you there, he is holding you in a state of structural breakdown, with the dynamic of intimidation- he can easily deliver that KO punch BEFORE you can get a structural base and react to counter.

    Dan C
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    Default Re: conquering shield

    Been attempting to view the tech in light of Dan's well-described kamikaze attack (which I happen to agree with). Cannot see myself being able to drop back into stance fast enough on the initial stiff-arm impact unless I was:

    1) Already aware of the attempt and right-lead aligned to my attacker, with my left foot significantly angled back.; and

    2) M attacker happened to shove me REALLY hard with that initial stiff-arm! And I mean hard enough to jolt me back into my left neutral-bow immediately so I could flow into the prescribed tech... but that would require a committed miscalculation on his part.

    Even so, from my limited perspective as a Purple Belt, I would be more comfortable working off the natural flinch reaction and throwing my left arm up into the path of the incoming fist, hopefully striking his face en-route to STOP that attack as I turtled and crouched in a quasi left neutral-bow (assuming the force of his pull drags me off-balance so my left foot is yanked forward); and then rebounding off that block to hurl my left leg back into a right neutral-bow, while pinning his left arm (the one that's grabbing me) with my left hand, and driving my right forearm upwards into that sweet spot just above his elbow (ala Snapping Twig).

    And then go from there.

    Of course if he yanked me that hard that my left leg was forward, I'd probably be better off launching into a step-through right vertical-fist or rising elbow (depending on range) to drive through his head and put the bastard on the defensive... Just something about re-analysing what I do after reading much too much about the Splashing Hands-Kenpo connection (thanks, Doc) and its brutally offensive philosophy.

    Just my 2 cents anyway .

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    Default Re: conquering shield

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    While not stated in the description provided at the beginning of the thread, it was a written consideration for the technique in the old IKKA manuals. It's also one of those "verbal tradition" pieces for folks who never bought the manuals...among the what-if's in my own notes are "what if you have just been slammed rearwards into the wall?, with the solution being a rearward placement of the right foot on the wall behind you to absorb the force, then springing off the wall into the kick. in a single, loaded motion

    I took that note while eavesdropping on someone elses conversation. On subsequent cold and lonely slow nights working the door, I used to practice launching into that kick & tech off the wall. Particularly after getting knocked into a X-mas tree with my hands in my pockets FROM that pre-launch position, but that's another story...more about environmental awareness and not being a smart-aleck while closing.
    Just my point, we give answers without defining the question. I do have the old IKKA manuals, and agree that enviormental sitituation is one of the condisderations of attack and defense. The issue becomes that we went past it and other considerations and went right to selecting a weapon and a target.
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    Default Re: conquering shield

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    Welllll, if you want we can start with the A proper attack.

    Could we do just that sir?

    Dr. Dave and others have raised some good questions, however there seems to be an underlying belief that changing the base technique (ie . step back) is required.

    I quess I am missing something, but I thought the manuver would be to launch,pivot,drag and then step.
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    Default Re: conquering shield

    " A search on "Basics" will find some very old threads on this topic, if I am not mistaken."

    It would be nice if they were all in one place, and also if people were talking about basics more currently and more often.
    "To be, rather than to seem"

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    Default Re: conquering shield

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkC View Post
    It would be nice if they were all in one place, and also if people were talking about basics more currently and more often.
    The ones I started ~ were all in the same place when I started them ~ almost at the inception of this message board ~ because I felt they would be a good point of reference. Not just then, but always.

    Some others started threads, later, similarly named. I'm not certain I would call some of the things described as a basic, a basic. But, those posters believe them to be so. And could present their thoughts.

    If you use the 'Advanced Search' - and search only thread titles ~ it is easier to find them. The word 'basics' itself, shows up an awful lot on the board, doesn't it?

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    Default Re: conquering shield

    It seems to me that a lot more attention needs to be paid to "basics". There are often several similar, yet different ideas as to how they're executed, and while I realize it's futile, it would be nice if everyone was almost on the same page.
    "To be, rather than to seem"

    "Fix your rear foot ... What the hell is wrong with you?"

    "...I already watched the videos, and quite frankly, they're bullsh*t."

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    Default Re: conquering shield

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan View Post
    No one called me on this mistake- that should have read "adduct"- which leads me to believe that most are not familiar with my terminology. Either that, or most of you have the good sense to ignore me!

    abduct- when an extremity is extended, or straightened

    adduct- when an extremety is flexed, or folded back on or towards itself


    Dan C
    Wrote it off as a senior moment
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    Default Re: conquering shield

    Quote Originally Posted by MARSHALLS KENPO View Post
    Where is this stated sir?

    Conquering Shield (Front- Left Hand Lapel Grab; Stiff-Arm)
    1. An attacker at 12 o'clock grabs your lapel with their stiffened left arm.

    2. Pin your attacker's left hand to your chest with your left as you simultaneously execute a right inward vertical forearm strike against your attacker's left elbow and execute a right front kick to your attacker's right inner knee.

    3. Land your right foot to 12 o'clock into a right neutral as you utilize marriage of gravity striking down with a right downward elbow to your attacker's left forearm. down, execute a right upward elbow strike.

    4. As your attacker's head comes down, execute a right upward elbow strike.

    5. Reverse the motion and execute a right downward elbow to your attacker's chest followed with a right overhead claw to your attacker's face.

    6. Cross out towards 4:30.
    Only in the logic. Without a wall to slightly base off of the simultaneous kick and arm break/dislocation do not have sufficient margin for error.

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    Default Re: conquering shield

    Quote Originally Posted by MARSHALLS KENPO View Post
    Could we do just that sir?

    Dr. Dave and others have raised some good questions, however there seems to be an underlying belief that changing the base technique (ie . step back) is required.

    I quess I am missing something, but I thought the manuver would be to launch,pivot,drag and then step.
    From my perspective, the issue is one of digging out the lessons, i.e. learning the basics and the concepts inherent in this tech, and then learning to aply them to specific situations, or variatins, of this attack. And the first step to any understanding is to look at the attacker:

    What is he trying to do?

    How exactly is he trying to do it?

    Why did he choose this particular attack in the first place?

    Next, you have to look at this as the initial part has worked ... he gotcha ... what has this done to you structurally and posturally? What about mentally and perceptually? Now, what are your viable options as the assault continues, and so do the dynamics those questions address?

    In a nutshell, from where he put you, how do you regain your structure ao you can counter, and at the same time destroy his so that you negate the KO punch which is already coming?

    Dan C
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    Default Re: conquering shield

    Quote Originally Posted by MARSHALLS KENPO View Post
    Wrote it off as a senior moment
    *sigh*

    I tend to have those ...

    Dan (anybody seen where I laid my qi?) C
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    Default Re: conquering shield

    Quote Originally Posted by pete View Post
    just do some push hands and this and all other kenpo techniques will start to make sense, regardless of the attack.
    Pete
    Or, in Kenpo terms, "rolling". Agree (and wish I still could). Besides being fun, it teaches us to react instinctively as situational dynamics change. Good to see you still here, as I think your insights from an internal CMA perspective are invaluable ... especially in techs like this.



    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    ... Not only are there significant issues with the nature and environment of the attack...but the dialogue about them was sticking in my craw for some reason. Its this: This technique should be absolutely devastating. ... I have yet to see anyone move with the authority and ownership of their basics to make me believe thay will do anything to a larger aggressor in an enclosed and tight space with their shots, but piss them off, unbalance them a little, and bow them forward with the elbow cancellation.

    The basics comprising the tech are just too commonly too weak to introduce the level of injury that the movements presumably dictate. Also, no one has addressed that level of violence for a single attacker. ...
    Docca D, agree very much! This assault must be answered immediately with power and authority, or you are going to loose some teeth! And it must be done within the dictates of environment as well as the relevant strenghts and postures of you and your attacker. And in both cases, you are probably at a significant disadvantage to start with.

    Dan (would love to be able to actually do this stuff ...) C
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    Default Re: conquering shield

    Quote Originally Posted by profesormental View Post
    The thing with the "stiff arm lapel grab" is that it has several factors in terms of intent and the effect on the defender. ... Another variant of the attack, can be a lunge to grab and punch or go for a grapple, so the grab not only pulls, but pulls down to stabilize the posture of the attacker to hit you. ... Another attack can be an aggressive lapel grab that turns you (a.k.a. controls your width), so it is not the same mechanism for stepping back as in Lone Kimono (controls depth), so it merits another technique scenario. It might not be to intimidate, but to punch you immediately after gaining some control.

    Thus again, getting into this discussion merits the specific attack condition so that a meaningful response in level 4 range using SL-4 mechanisms to optimally Survive the Initial Attack. ...
    JuanMa, always good reading your ideas! And I wish I knew those SL-4 mechanisms. But i am just a broken down ex-motion kenpoist that couldn't resist when asked to participate at least mentally. However, I think that you can survive this assault and effectively counter, even as conditions change, if you learn what the tech. teaches, not the rote response which wouldn't work for any scenario I can immagine (my humble opinion).

    So, how would you structure a response that would survive most variants of this assault- keeping in mind it should teach concepts and basics and not a rote response?

    Dan (and yes, I am humbled now ... a little, any way, lol) C
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    Default Re: conquering shield

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    Good to see you again, Bubba.
    Good to see you too!

    I gotta admit, I am enjoying this! Good to be talking to you, and a lot of other old friends, and some pretty good newer posters as well.

    Dan C
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    Default Re: conquering shield

    Quote Originally Posted by Eastcoastkenpoist View Post
    Only in the logic. Without a wall to slightly base off of the simultaneous kick and arm break/dislocation do not have sufficient margin for error.
    I love logic
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    Default Re: conquering shield

    Quote Originally Posted by michaeledward View Post
    ... What I see is not nearly enough UP-DOWN-UP-DOWN in the execution of this technique. ...
    Try this:

    Have someone give you the dojo version of this attack ... he just grabs your right 'lapel' with his left, stiff arm. You step back into a right twist stance as you simultaneosly pin his left hand with your left forearm/wrist and strike his elbow gently with a right inward block. This will drive his left elbow inward (breaking his structure and negating his right punch) as it also weights his left (leading) foot and brings his torso forward and DOWN.

    Quickly flash your right hand UPWARDS in front of his face, past his eyes and ending just above and over his forehead. Do not make contact with the right hand. Simultaneously step your right foot forward into a right neu bow, release with your left hand and move it to a left guard pos.

    Transition your stance through a wide kneel to a close kneel and then a lunge, as you roll forward onto the right foot with, in this case, a significant front foot loading component. As you do this, gently (but very firmly) press with a left knife hand to his collarbone, close to the shoulder/neck junction. This should be aimed DOWNWARD and away from you in an arc, towards the point directly behind his left heel where his left shinbone and right shinbone would intersect if they were laid on the floor from their respective heels, and the right was arced in place to touch the left.

    This is not the defense, btw, but the results should illustrate that a DOWN-UP-DOWN motion is a significant part of the defense. You are turning the tables on him, messing with HIS perceptual understanding of time, space, and angular relationships. Also known as his physical and neurological structure.

    Let us know ...

    Dan C
    Last edited by thedan; 10-26-2009 at 06:22 PM. Reason: had to underline "DOWNWARD" ... 'nuther senior moment there
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