Complaint Discussion

[Alleydog]

Bob,

This Forum and site as a whole is wonderful in its design and function. That said the limiting of expression, hand slapping for criticism, and the draconian thought control imposed at times by the monitors is very annoying. Its kenpo not preschool.

Yours in Kenpo,

Mike G

[Bob Hubbard]

Mike,
Every site has it's rules. This site is probably the least moderated of all my forums, with the exception of my sci-fi board. It's also got the smallest rule set. It also generates the smallest number of complaints about problem posts. So, I'm sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree here. Honestly, I don't see much of any of your complaint going on.

This post outlines an efficient complaint procedure so that member concerns re handled fast, and efficiently. After all, if you have a problem at McDonalds, you contact the manager directly right? A problem on the training floor? You talk to the instructor or owner privately and don't disrupt the class. Same thing here. Heck if I left a note on my instructors desk expecting him to see it mixed in with all the dvd's, vhs, books, seminar notes, etc...it might be weeks before he finds it...probably when he's 1,000 miles away y'know?

But here's the deal:
You made this complaint : "limiting of expression, hand slapping for criticism, and the draconian thought control imposed at times by the monitors"

Ok, that's fair.

Send me detailed examples and it will be looked into.

This part, I'll agree with 225%
"Its kenpo not preschool."

Right. Which is why we expect our members to act accordingly. We're not into the whole "anarchy rules" thing, or "he who swears the most wins" thing or the BS "freedom of speech means you can say anything you want" fallacy that a few other boards thrive in. We expect our members, -especially- those claiming high rank to act in a mature and professional manner. No room for bullies and "pulpit pounders" (you know, those guys who you can just see all puffy and red faced pounding their fist as they type types) here.

[Roadrunner]

I can see both sides of the coin here. I will say that I don't post often because of the rules though.

[Carol]

I can see both sides of the coin here. I will say that I don't post often because of the rules though.

Which rules do you have issue with, Roadrunner?

[Rob Broad]

There are rules everywhere in life and KenpoTalk is no exception. The rules are in place to protect our members, not limit the exchange of knowledge. Freedom of speech is a marvelous concept and it is one of the principles that the United States is founded on, but that does not mean it is ok to constantly be rude to others and belittle people because then you are encroaching on their pursuit of happiness.

It is far more easy to get your point across in a calm polite manner than when ranting and swearing at people. As Bob has said PM the staff with links to what you have a complaint about and we will get back to you with in 24 - 48 hours with a resolution. Very few decisions on this site are arbitrary, over 90% of policy, and situations is discussed and voted on by staff. For a site this size it is pretty amazing that we have only had 8 people banned and all of them were asked to be polite, some given more than enough enough chances to play nice.

Debate on this site is encouraged, name calling and being rude just shows ignorance and will not be tolerated. If a person can not get their point across with out profanity, name calling or belittling someone then maybe they shold spend a little more time on their linguistics than on the forum.

[Bob Hubbard]

Another 2 points:


Our rules are subject to change. As we grow, we see the need to make those changes. Some things are absolute and won't be, like our profanity policy. Other times, we evolve as our members show us that certain rules aren't needed...or are.


Free speech - http://www.rustaz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10952


If you have a concern, a complaint, a suggestion, we want to hear it. I'm the only forum admin I know who says email me, pm me, call me.

[T-Bo]

Free speech - http://www.rustaz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10952

Nice article. Sums up many points very nicely. I deal with a lot of the same constitutional arguments in my work at a private college. Rules are different for private entities as compared to governmental agencies.

[Roadrunner]

Which rules do you have issue with, Roadrunner?

I guess it's not really a rule, maybe it is, but I don't feel like I can give my true opinion on many things. It's a strange forum where I feel many people are very fake with their comments.

[Rob Broad]

I guess it's not really a rule, maybe it is, but I don't feel like I can give my true opinion on many things. It's a strange forum where I feel many people are very fake with their comments.

Give your opinion just without profanity or being intentional rude or hurtful. We are all adults here and should be able to accordingly.

[Roadrunner]

Give your opinion just without profanity or being intentional rude or hurtful. We are all adults here and should be able to accordingly.

The problem is I can't give an honest opinion because someone's feeling might get hurt. I'll just keep reading and keep my comments to myself.

[Rob Broad]

Just because they might get hurt shouldn't stop you. Only if and when you intentionally decide to be mean or beligerent, that you should consider not making a post.

[Bob Hubbard]

The problem is I can't give an honest opinion because someone's feeling might get hurt. I'll just keep reading and keep my comments to myself.

Seriously, share. While someone's feelings might get hurt, someone else might read what you say and have an 'aha' moment, and find a like mind. It's all good.

[Alleydog]

Bob,

Thanks for taking time to respond. Sorry I could get back to you right away but we are in the process of moving to a new studio.
You say this site is less moderated of your forums but it is much more moderated than most kenpo forums out there. This is good and bad. I’m not saying it should be laissez faire posting with all the fighting and flaming but I have been bared from posting before for mildly criticizing another forum member. Sometimes people need to be told that their kenpo stinks.
The next time I can’t take some self proclaimed experts ridiculous post and my response is deleted and or I’m bared, I will take my case to you directly.

Ron, your comment “There are rules everywhere in life and KenpoTalk is no exception.” shows we have taken much different paths with are kenpo.
My kenpo started some 20 years ago with instructors Joe Palanzo, Tom Kelly, Karl Petro, and Mr. Parker. The rules of kenpo as taught to me from these fine instructors was that the 1st rule of kenpo was there are no rules.
Paul Mills is my current instructor and I believe his experiences handling the security in his night club has help shape even more realism into the refinements and developments of the kenpo that he teaches. It was this realistic approach that lead me to Ed Parkers Kenpo and the same realism that lead me to the AKKI.

The street has no rules. The guy trying to kick your butt is not going to follow even UFC rules. The guy trying to shoot or knife you won’t follow any rules either. So if your kenpo has rules your at a big disadvantage.

Yours in Kenpo,

Mike G

[execkenpo]

Ron, your comment “There are rules everywhere in life and KenpoTalk is no exception.” shows we have taken much different paths with are kenpo.
My kenpo started some 20 years ago with instructors Joe Palanzo, Tom Kelly, Karl Petro, and Mr. Parker. The rules of kenpo as taught to me from these fine instructors was that the 1st rule of kenpo was there are no rules.


The street has no rules. The guy trying to kick your butt is not going to follow even UFC rules. The guy trying to shoot or knife you won’t follow any rules either. So if your kenpo has rules your at a big disadvantage.

Yours in Kenpo,

Mike G

Maybe I misunderstand Ron's comments, but my take on it was in reference to kenpotalk, not kenpo. I totally agree that when it comes to fighting, Marquis De Queensbury rules do not apply. There should be a set of rules governing behavior as far as the forums go, if for no other reason than to ensure mutual respect for all participants.

Regarding kenpo, we do have a number of rules in place. We bow when entering and leaving the dojo, we bow to our instructor as a show of respect, we wear our belt knots on the appropriate side (in many schools this is still true) when in class as students (even if we are instructors in the school).

Respectfully,
Mark

[Celtic_Crippler]

The problem comes in when someone posts a statement like, "you suck" or "that's stupid" and don't back it up with any logical or reasonable statement or proof.

First off, it's not necessary to be insulting in that manner. Intelligent people communicate their ideas without being insulting. A thinking, civil individual does not find it necessary to be offensive even when disagreeing. They simply communicate their ideas and list the reasons behind their opinions. In most cases, that's not offensive to anyone.

Secondly, why post something that's not productive. IMHO, if you're here to bash other styles of kenpo that aren't your own then you're here for the wrong reason. I, and others, have learned a lot from discussing ideas and debating approaches to learning with other members. Believe it or not, it is possible to do so without being offensive. It's called etiquette. To me, this forum is a great resource for learning. If you prefer to talk smack then go to bullshido. There's a place online for everyone.

[Rob Broad]

First off let me state that my name is Rob not Ron.

Secondly there are rules everywhere.

If you drive 100mph on the high you are breaking the rules of society and if you get caught there are consequences to pay.

If you smash a window and a grab something shiny you like, you are breaking the rules of society and if and when you get caught there are consequences.

If you are defending your self against a simple punch and you hospitalize the guy, you are breaking the rules of society, and if you are caught there will be consequence to pay.

I know the adage of "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6" I have been hearing for the last 26 almost 27 years of my training. I too have had lesson with some really great instructors but they all follow the rules of society. There is a great misconception when it comes to self defense, and I am shocked at how many educated people are uncertain on the real facts. You are allowed to defend yourself to the fullest extent of the law, a lot of people thinks this means by whatever means necessary, unfortunately that is not the case. If someone bad mouths you, you can't break their legs, if you are pushed you can't pull a knife and stab them, and so on. Whats defending yourself to the fullest extent of the law means you can defend yourself with the least amount of force necessary to get the job done and you must stop the moment they are no longer a threat.

Rules are every and KenpoTalk is no exception.

[Alleydog]

Rob,

Sorry I didn’t get your name correct.

Let me ask was your 26 or 27 years of training in Ed Parker’s kenpo? I trained in other martial arts for years before kenpo but it was not till I got to kenpo that true self-defense was the main focus. This doesn’t mean I adopted an outlaws mind set. In fact I think learning kenpo and its brutally efficient techniques will keep one more resistant to use their self-defense skills realizing how bad they could hurt someone. Mr. Parker was a kind gentle man but if he was attacked on the street he could “turn on the light switch” as he would say. Mr. Mills as well is one of the nicest people you’d want to meet but I wouldn’t want to throw down on him. Man, that thought just brings chills to me bones.

Your confusing lawlessness and rule breaking, I would never condone breaking the law. I teach my students to respect the law and to use only enough force they deem necessary. I would not have a student that didn’t respect the law or value life. That said
I would never put doubts or fear about “breaking a law” in anyone’s head when their life is in danger. This would be irresponsible.

Try breaking some rules with your kenpo or even this forum. Heck you can even insult me on your reply post. You may even find rule bending and freedom refreshing.

Yours in Kenpo,

Mike G

[Rob Broad]

I started in the Tracy system of Kenpo and then migrated to Ed Parker's American Kenpo in 1988.

I have been a rule breaker and bender at times but I chose not to do so whenever possible. Laws are the rules a civilized society lives by. IN reality speed limits are a pretty arbitrary rule/law, and I will admit that I do tend to flirt with that one more than I like to admit.

As for insulting people I have been known to do it from time to time, sometimes in jest, sometimes to see if the person can keep up with me, and others times because the person has ticked me off. I have no need to insult you since this is just good debate.

Rob,

Sorry I didn’t get your name correct.

Let me ask was your 26 or 27 years of training in Ed Parker’s kenpo? I trained in other martial arts for years before kenpo but it was not till I got to kenpo that true self-defense was the main focus. This doesn’t mean I adopted an outlaws mind set. In fact I think learning kenpo and its brutally efficient techniques will keep one more resistant to use their self-defense skills realizing how bad they could hurt someone. Mr. Parker was a kind gentle man but if he was attacked on the street he could “turn on the light switch” as he would say. Mr. Mills as well is one of the nicest people you’d want to meet but I wouldn’t want to throw down on him. Man, that thought just brings chills to me bones.

Your confusing lawlessness and rule breaking, I would never condone breaking the law. I teach my students to respect the law and to use only enough force they deem necessary. I would not have a student that didn’t respect the law or value life. That said
I would never put doubts or fear about “breaking a law” in anyone’s head when their life is in danger. This would be irresponsible.

Try breaking some rules with your kenpo or even this forum. Heck you can even insult me on your reply post. You may even find rule bending and freedom refreshing.

Yours in Kenpo,

Mike G

[RDCParker]

I tend to quote hip-hop / rap artists from time to time... believe it or not they sometimes have some profound things to say in their music. This discussion reminds me of something Ice Cube said in the song "Bow Down" about how O.G.s (original gangsters) have rules. He said "because fools with no rules have nothing to lose... we got everything to lose."

Now a gangster is a criminal and I'm not promoting that lifestyle, but the point that Ice Cube makes is that even a gangster should follow certain rules if he wants to thrive in this world. How much more so should a kenpoist impose rules on himself/herself? How much more do we have to lose?

Rules are more than just written law, sometimes they are implied and/or have moral reasons behind them. As human beings, we need to live by rules every day in order to thrive. No matter how free we are or what rights we have, there are rules in everything we do. Think about the formalities of your school... disrespect, name calling, slander, flaming, whatever, is any of that allowed at your school? I doubt it. As martial artists, we represent and respect not only ourselves, but our schools that we train at, and the entire MA community.

A heated discussion here and there is normal human behavior, and no one should fear that. But outright disrespect of another hurts your credibility, destroys any respect you get from others, and makes you, your instructor/school, and the art look bad. That’s a LOT to lose. The few times that I have seen outright disrespect here... well, let's just say those people don't last very long on this site, just as they wouldn’t last long in a credible school.

My main reason for staying with Kenpo Talk is because of the rules and mutual lines of respect that are followed here. We live by rules in everything that we do, and this board is no different. As a kenpo yellow belt (soon to be orange), this site is an important part of my kenpo training, and the rules imposed by the moderators, along with the discipline and respect we have in ourselves, keep this board an enjoyable place for everyone to share and learn.

[Roadrunner]

Sometimes people need to be told that their kenpo stinks.

Preach on brother.