Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 42

Thread: forms practice

  1. #1
    Jim Hanna is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Purple Belt
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    226
    Thanks
    11
    Thanked 179 Times in 95 Posts

    Default forms practice

    Just curious. I assumed that when people practiced the numbered forms that they always practiced "seeing and responding" to the attackers. I know I always do.

    Anyone out there not do this and if so, why?

    Jim

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Sarnia, ON, Canada
    Posts
    7,774
    Thanks
    301
    Thanked 1,263 Times in 801 Posts

    Default Re: forms practice

    Definitely. Sometimes I would even have attackers and go through the form.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

  3. The Following User Says Thank You to Rob Broad For This Useful Post:

    John M. La Tourrette (05-09-2007)

  4. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Orlando, Florida
    Posts
    6,026
    Thanks
    1,199
    Thanked 1,517 Times in 909 Posts

    Default Re: forms practice

    It's always a good idea to "visualize." Whether doing forms or practicing techniques by yourself, when you visualize attackers and focus on the purpose of the movements it helps you to retain the information. It also helps you to learn faster. Pro athelets use visualization to help improve their performance all the time. =)
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

  5. #4
    Kenpodave's Avatar
    Kenpodave is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Green Belt
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Shreveport, Louisiana, United States,
    Posts
    593
    Thanks
    227
    Thanked 396 Times in 197 Posts

    Default Re: forms practice

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Hanna
    Just curious. I assumed that when people practiced the numbered forms that they always practiced "seeing and responding" to the attackers. I know I always do.

    Anyone out there not do this and if so, why?

    Jim
    Always! Even if my training focus at that particular moment is different than the techniques in the forms, there is still some visualization of an attack.
    Dave

    "I consider that the spiritual life is the life of man's real self, the life of that interior self whose flame is so often allowed to be smothered under the ashes of anxiety and futile concern." - Thomas Merton


  6. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Sarnia, ON, Canada
    Posts
    7,774
    Thanks
    301
    Thanked 1,263 Times in 801 Posts

    Default Re: forms practice

    What other things do you do when practicing forms? I like to do them blind folded, and sometimes backwards.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

  7. #6
    Kenpodave's Avatar
    Kenpodave is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Green Belt
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Shreveport, Louisiana, United States,
    Posts
    593
    Thanks
    227
    Thanked 396 Times in 197 Posts

    Default Re: forms practice

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad
    What other things do you do when practicing forms? I like to do them blind folded, and sometimes backwards.
    By backwards, do you mean in reverse, or mirror image?
    Dave

    "I consider that the spiritual life is the life of man's real self, the life of that interior self whose flame is so often allowed to be smothered under the ashes of anxiety and futile concern." - Thomas Merton


  8. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Sarnia, ON, Canada
    Posts
    7,774
    Thanks
    301
    Thanked 1,263 Times in 801 Posts

    Default Re: forms practice

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpodave
    By backwards, do you mean in reverse, or mirror image?
    Actually both depending on which form I am doing. Since Shoet 1 and Long 1 already have a natural second side I don't do the opposite side but I can do it in reverse order.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

  9. #8
    Jim Hanna is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Purple Belt
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    226
    Thanks
    11
    Thanked 179 Times in 95 Posts

    Default Re: forms practice

    Oh boy, been there, done that forward, backwards, weak side stuff. I'm sorry, I see no benefit to it (except for Mass Attacks B). I'm still working on merely doing the forms as designed. That's plenty difficult.

    Salute,
    Jim

  10. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Sarnia, ON, Canada
    Posts
    7,774
    Thanks
    301
    Thanked 1,263 Times in 801 Posts

    Default Re: forms practice

    I like to video tape myself working on my foems and techniques. I look for holes in my motion, and areas I need to improve.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

  11. #10
    Kenpodave's Avatar
    Kenpodave is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Green Belt
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Shreveport, Louisiana, United States,
    Posts
    593
    Thanks
    227
    Thanked 396 Times in 197 Posts

    Default Re: forms practice

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Hanna
    Oh boy, been there, done that forward, backwards, weak side stuff. I'm sorry, I see no benefit to it (except for Mass Attacks B). I'm still working on merely doing the forms as designed. That's plenty difficult.

    Salute,
    Jim
    I don't do them backwards, but I do practice everything mirror image. The benefits I see are mainly:

    #1. If your response is predicated on the attack, and you don't get to choose how you are attacked, your movements better work from either side or angle.

    #2. I think of it as a right brain activity. Practicing everything from the "wrong side" should stimulate the creative parts of the brain, which should tend to make me more spontaneous in movement. Which goes with #1.
    Dave

    "I consider that the spiritual life is the life of man's real self, the life of that interior self whose flame is so often allowed to be smothered under the ashes of anxiety and futile concern." - Thomas Merton


  12. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Sarnia, ON, Canada
    Posts
    7,774
    Thanks
    301
    Thanked 1,263 Times in 801 Posts

    Default Re: forms practice

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpodave
    I don't do them backwards, but I do practice everything mirror image. The benefits I see are mainly:

    #1. If your response is predicated on the attack, and you don't get to choose how you are attacked, your movements better work from either side or angle.

    #2. I think of it as a right brain activity. Practicing everything from the "wrong side" should stimulate the creative parts of the brain, which should tend to make me more spontaneous in movement. Which goes with #1.
    What about doing the forms isometrically?
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

  13. #12
    Kenpodave's Avatar
    Kenpodave is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Green Belt
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Shreveport, Louisiana, United States,
    Posts
    593
    Thanks
    227
    Thanked 396 Times in 197 Posts

    Default Re: forms practice

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad
    What about doing the forms isometrically?
    Sometimes. I have done them with tension, relaxed ala Tai Chi, and everything in between. Played with tempo changes, worked the stances ridiculously low.

    But never backwards.
    Dave

    "I consider that the spiritual life is the life of man's real self, the life of that interior self whose flame is so often allowed to be smothered under the ashes of anxiety and futile concern." - Thomas Merton


  14. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Real estate in 3 states
    Posts
    2,963
    Thanks
    1,852
    Thanked 1,160 Times in 817 Posts

    Default clearing up the slop in forms practice

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad View Post
    Definitely. Sometimes I would even have attackers and go through the form.
    Yep.
    That's the TRUE secret to really learning forms.

    Be damned sure that you practice them on a real attacker, so you can FEEL/see as you do the Waza/Kata.

    That will instantly clear up all the Kata slop that is so common in any studio.

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

  15. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to John M. La Tourrette For This Useful Post:

    Brother John (05-11-2007),sifuroy (05-09-2007)

  16. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Real estate in 3 states
    Posts
    2,963
    Thanks
    1,852
    Thanked 1,160 Times in 817 Posts

    Default Re: forms practice

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad View Post
    What about doing the forms isometrically?
    NEVER!

    Doing a Waza in any Kata as an isometric will defeat any purpose of the Waza's or the Kata.

    Unless you change the PURPOSE first.

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

  17. #15
    Jim Hanna is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Purple Belt
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    226
    Thanks
    11
    Thanked 179 Times in 95 Posts

    Default Re: forms practice

    I have to throw my .02 cents in again. Forms can certainly be practiced slowly (not full power, full speed) but I do not think that the meter can be altered. To alter the meter is to compromise the self defense value of the techniques. A power move has to accented, etc. (I am speaking of the numbered technique forms).

    But Dr LaTourette posted a consideration that I had not thought of--the purpose of form practice may not be for self defense value.

    I'd realized that when practicing the borrowed Asian forms, but always considered the purpose of the kenpo forms to be predicated upon self defense. I know that others also believe this because I have read opinions that denigrated the borrowed forms as having no real self defense value, implying of course that the modern forms do.

    Jim

  18. The Following User Says Thank You to Jim Hanna For This Useful Post:

    John M. La Tourrette (05-09-2007)

  19. #16
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    San Francisco
    Posts
    2,723
    Thanks
    1,603
    Thanked 3,077 Times in 1,445 Posts

    Default Re: forms practice

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Hanna View Post
    I have to throw my .02 cents in again. Forms can certainly be practiced slowly (not full power, full speed) but I do not think that the meter can be altered. To alter the meter is to compromise the self defense value of the techniques. A power move has to accented, etc. (I am speaking of the numbered technique forms).

    But Dr LaTourette posted a consideration that I had not thought of--the purpose of form practice may not be for self defense value.

    I'd realized that when practicing the borrowed Asian forms, but always considered the purpose of the kenpo forms to be predicated upon self defense. I know that others also believe this because I have read opinions that denigrated the borrowed forms as having no real self defense value, implying of course that the modern forms do.

    Jim

    Interesting comments, Jim.

    I have not yet learned the borrowed forms in Tracys, other than Tiger and Crane, which I actually do a version learned from my kung fu sifu. I don't know what the other borrowed forms are like, but I have seen them listed in Tracys website and it appears clear to me that most of them are borrowed from Chinese arts.

    However, I have spent the last 10 years or so studying under a sifu who has taught me elements of Tibetan White Crane, Shaolin, and Tai Chi Chuan. During this period, I have also trained for 3 or 4 years under another sifu who teaches Wing Chun and I have learned all three of the primary hand forms.

    I find these forms to be quite useful. They are definitely structured differently from Kenpo kata, and often the usefulness of the techniques is more abstract and requires more examination to understand them, but I certainly consider all of these forms to be useful fighting forms. It is true, they often contain elements that might not be intended specifically for fighting, but rather develop other related and important aspects like power. But they also contain useful fighting methods as well; it seems the Chinese forms often mix these aspects within the same form. They just require a different mindset to understand their purpose, i guess.

    anyway, that's just my two cents, from my experiences.
    Michael


    de gustibus non disputante est.
    Negative Douche Bag Number One

  20. The Following User Says Thank You to flying crane For This Useful Post:

    John M. La Tourrette (05-09-2007)

  21. #17
    Jim Hanna is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Purple Belt
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    226
    Thanks
    11
    Thanked 179 Times in 95 Posts

    Default Re: the standards

    Michael,

    Another couple of ideas that I'd like to throw out is the comment that the "standards" should not be changed or modified. First, who's version of the standards? I think that the Tracy versions would be pretty difficult to predate. Now, I see that people like Mr Planas, Mr Tatum, and others are making some little modifications to forms and techniques. The truth of the matter is that a masterpiece can not be changed without detriment...if it was a true masterpiece. But perhaps I misunderstand the purpose of the katas (whichever one you choose).

    Second: "kata version". I hate those two words and can no longer swallow them; too contrary to what I have come to believe kenpo is.

    Jim

  22. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Kennewick, WA
    Posts
    1,010
    Thanks
    143
    Thanked 711 Times in 384 Posts

    Default Re: the standards

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Hanna View Post
    Michael,

    Another couple of ideas that I'd like to throw out is the comment that the "standards" should not be changed or modified. First, who's version of the standards? I think that the Tracy versions would be pretty difficult to predate. Now, I see that people like Mr Planas, Mr Tatum, and others are making some little modifications to forms and techniques. The truth of the matter is that a masterpiece can not be changed without detriment...if it was a true masterpiece. But perhaps I misunderstand the purpose of the katas (whichever one you choose).

    Second: "kata version". I hate those two words and can no longer swallow them; too contrary to what I have come to believe kenpo is.

    Jim
    I think that if you honestly think you can make something better, you should. This isn't to change things for the sake of change, but if after dedicated research you don't like something, and can't justify it, then you should change it.

    I don't assume anything is a "masterpiece" alot of the our forms were developed by Mr. Parker relatively early in his MA journey.

    Lamont
    Pekiti Tirsia Kali and Kenpo Karate
    www.blackbirdmartialarts.com

    “He, who will not reason, is a bigot; he, who cannot, is a fool; and he, who dares not, is a slave.”
    ~William Drummond

    "This person is as dangerous as an IED."

  23. #19
    sifuroy is offline In Memory of our Departed Friend
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    1,027
    Thanks
    958
    Thanked 444 Times in 304 Posts

    Default Re: forms practice

    I have heard it said. "Do a form 1000 times and you will see your opponent.
    do it 10,000 times and you audience will see your opponent".


    I am most Respectfully,
    Sifuroy

  24. #20
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    San Francisco
    Posts
    2,723
    Thanks
    1,603
    Thanked 3,077 Times in 1,445 Posts

    Default Re: the standards

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Hanna View Post
    Second: "kata version". I hate those two words and can no longer swallow them; too contrary to what I have come to believe kenpo is.

    Jim
    Are you referring to the particular version of a tech that is found in a kata, that might be a bit different from the practical application of that tech? Sometimes it seems like a simplified version of a tech is used in the kata, because maybe it transitions easier or something. Is this what you are referring to?
    Michael


    de gustibus non disputante est.
    Negative Douche Bag Number One

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Remove Ads

Sponsored Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. EPAK: How many forms are there, and what are they?
    By Bob Hubbard in forum FAQ Development Forum
    Replies: 53
    Last Post: 06-28-2011, 02:34 AM
  2. How often do you practice??
    By Kenpo-Sloth in forum Beginners Corner
    Replies: 31
    Last Post: 06-26-2007, 04:31 PM
  3. Tracy: How many forms are there, and what are they?
    By Bob Hubbard in forum FAQ Development Forum
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 09-28-2006, 01:35 PM
  4. Forms Question?
    By Fastmover in forum Parker - Mills / AKKI
    Replies: 29
    Last Post: 10-08-2005, 12:46 PM