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Thread: soft kenpo

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    Jim Hanna is offline
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    Default soft kenpo

    I'm interested in learning who teaches what I call "soft kenpo". Some would refer to this as grappling or control manipulation.

    In my career in law enforcement I have utilized mostly soft kenpo. I'm the guy who is actually grabbing collars, hands, shoulders, utilizing rear bilateral neck restraints, armlocks of various configurations, headlocks, bear hugs, hitting people with sticks, participating in "mass attacks" against an individual, etc. I think that that experience has really enhanced my view of the escapes and counters that we do. But I also teach how to effectively apply these various simple holds and explain their usage in different situations.

    Kenpo is a brutal art but it also has its overlooked soft side as I've explained. If anyone has viewed the vintage kenpo tape of Mr Parker and Mr Sullivan it gives some insight as to how these men practiced in the early years. They practice an escape to an armlock (Passing the Horizon I belive) but the armlock is applied by a man from 12:00, not 6:00. That reveals to me that they knew how to apply these various holds and did so during practice.

    Anyone else still do this stuff?

    Jim

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    Default Re: soft kenpo

    You have to know the attack before you can defend against it. When we show the attack (assuming it is a lock) we show the full application of the lock and where the counter-points are. For other locks that we don't have an attack for, we have a couple of lock-flow drills that encompass them. During are free-form reactions we'll sometimes put rules on it like "drunk uncle" so that you can't go apes(&* eye-gouging and groin hitting, this will commonly end with a control lock. Sparring can also encompass locks and holds like this.

    Lamont
    Pekiti Tirsia Kali and Kenpo Karate
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    Default Re: soft kenpo

    Our schools include locks, twists, and other aspects of grappling in our syllabus. But our president and my immediate instructor both have previous law enforcement experience so that may explain it.

    Personally, I think in order to be well-rounded and prepared for any street encounter you need these skills.

    IMHO =)
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: soft kenpo

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Hanna
    I'm interested in learning who teaches what I call "soft kenpo". Some would refer to this as grappling or control manipulation.

    In my career in law enforcement I have utilized mostly soft kenpo. I'm the guy who is actually grabbing collars, hands, shoulders, utilizing rear bilateral neck restraints, armlocks of various configurations, headlocks, bear hugs, hitting people with sticks, participating in "mass attacks" against an individual, etc. I think that that experience has really enhanced my view of the escapes and counters that we do. But I also teach how to effectively apply these various simple holds and explain their usage in different situations.

    Kenpo is a brutal art but it also has its overlooked soft side as I've explained. If anyone has viewed the vintage kenpo tape of Mr Parker and Mr Sullivan it gives some insight as to how these men practiced in the early years. They practice an escape to an armlock (Passing the Horizon I belive) but the armlock is applied by a man from 12:00, not 6:00. That reveals to me that they knew how to apply these various holds and did so during practice.

    Anyone else still do this stuff?

    Jim
    We do. It is covered in the phases of Kosho ryu, although I was teaching something along those lines before I was familiar with the phases of Kosho. More validation that the kenpo is right, and the gems are in there waiting to be found!
    Dave

    "I consider that the spiritual life is the life of man's real self, the life of that interior self whose flame is so often allowed to be smothered under the ashes of anxiety and futile concern." - Thomas Merton


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    Default Re: soft kenpo

    Quote Originally Posted by Blindside View Post
    You have to know the attack before you can defend against it. When we show the attack (assuming it is a lock) we show the full application of the lock and where the counter-points are. For other locks that we don't have an attack for, we have a couple of lock-flow drills that encompass them. During are free-form reactions we'll sometimes put rules on it like "drunk uncle" so that you can't go apes(&* eye-gouging and groin hitting, this will commonly end with a control lock. Sparring can also encompass locks and holds like this.

    Lamont
    Here's what I've noticed.

    I've noticed that most people do NOT know how to put the Uke into the armlock, the hammer-lock, the various choke-outs, etc.

    Their starting position is always with the Uke "helping" them.

    So when teaching Passing the Horizon, you need to know how to realistically put them into that armlock even if they are resisting and are NOT passive.

    Knowing both sides of the technique really makes a much better Kenpo Karate practitioner.

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

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    Default Re: soft kenpo

    There's a good chunk of chin na in our system. Great stuff if your goal is to control instead of destroy.
    Be careful what you say, some may take it the wrong way.

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    Default Re: soft kenpo

    Quote Originally Posted by John M. La Tourrette View Post
    Here's what I've noticed.

    I've noticed that most people do NOT know how to put the Uke into the armlock, the hammer-lock, the various choke-outs, etc.

    Their starting position is always with the Uke "helping" them.

    So when teaching Passing the Horizon, you need to know how to realistically put them into that armlock even if they are resisting and are NOT passive.

    Knowing both sides of the technique really makes a much better Kenpo Karate practitioner.

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette
    Exactly. Nobody is just going to let you put them in a lock or hold. They will resist.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: soft kenpo

    Quote Originally Posted by John M. La Tourrette View Post
    Here's what I've noticed.

    I've noticed that most people do NOT know how to put the Uke into the armlock, the hammer-lock, the various choke-outs, etc.

    Their starting position is always with the Uke "helping" them.

    So when teaching Passing the Horizon, you need to know how to realistically put them into that armlock even if they are resisting and are NOT passive.

    Knowing both sides of the technique really makes a much better Kenpo Karate practitioner.

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette
    And when practicing "Passing the Stone", you need to know where to find the morphine drip.

    Butt, seriously. This has been a kvetch of mine for a long time; too many guys fudging their way through jujutsu hold defenses without knowing the hold. I include on the basics lists of each belt req card fundamentals of judo and jujutsu; my guys will know how to breakfall, how to throw, choke, and lock up and twist various asundry joints on the body, as well as counter said manipulations.

    I also revisit kenpo techniques with thematic modifications. For example, visit Glancing Salute with an emphasis on debilitating blows; targeting, penetration, destabilization prior to striking, etc. Visit it again with an eye towards contact and control manipulation...really dial in on the pin & the mechanics of turning it into a control at the wrist before the hammering inward even leaves it's starting gate; really work the contact at the elbow into manipulation, and explore what-ifs from there utilizing it into a control hold to an arrest position; work the palm heel with a focus on controlling the head at the neck, and using the left arm to drop down into the elbow joint into a tension hold; work on dominating the shoulders with the knee, so you can trun it into a Thai style neck control for further knees & controlled release takedowns.

    I totally mean it when I say the techs are learning labs for the exploration of concepts, principles, and skill development - in the face of contextual contingencies. Your intent becomes part of the context. Do you wanna lock the guy up, or break him up? Drive him to the floor with jujutsu joint manipulations, or let him fall to the floor, unconscious, as a result of the beating you put on him?

    As a comprehensive martial art, we should have all contingecies accounted for. Including control manipulation.
    Clear mind, clear movement. Mastery of the Arts is mastery over the Self. That in this moment, this motion, the thoughts, memories, impulses and passions that cloud the mind must yield to the clarity of purpose, and purity of motion.

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    John M. La Tourrette (05-23-2007)

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    Default Re: soft kenpo

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    And when practicing "Passing the Stone", you need to know where to find the morphine drip.

    Butt, seriously. This has been a kvetch of mine for a long time; too many guys fudging their way through jujutsu hold defenses without knowing the hold. I include on the basics lists of each belt req card fundamentals of judo and jujutsu; my guys will know how to breakfall, how to throw, choke, and lock up and twist various asundry joints on the body, as well as counter said manipulations.

    I also revisit kenpo techniques with thematic modifications. For example, visit Glancing Salute with an emphasis on debilitating blows; targeting, penetration, destabilization prior to striking, etc. Visit it again with an eye towards contact and control manipulation...really dial in on the pin & the mechanics of turning it into a control at the wrist before the hammering inward even leaves it's starting gate; really work the contact at the elbow into manipulation, and explore what-ifs from there utilizing it into a control hold to an arrest position; work the palm heel with a focus on controlling the head at the neck, and using the left arm to drop down into the elbow joint into a tension hold; work on dominating the shoulders with the knee, so you can trun it into a Thai style neck control for further knees & controlled release takedowns.

    I totally mean it when I say the techs are learning labs for the exploration of concepts, principles, and skill development - in the face of contextual contingencies. Your intent becomes part of the context. Do you wanna lock the guy up, or break him up? Drive him to the floor with jujutsu joint manipulations, or let him fall to the floor, unconscious, as a result of the beating you put on him?

    As a comprehensive martial art, we should have all contingecies accounted for. Including control manipulation.
    A morphine drip is NOT necessary when you chug-a-lug (before going to bed) a half glass of olive oil.

    And there is no butts about that tactic being effective as far as an internal release.

    Targets almost always work better when the perp is pinned and cannot wiggle away from any of the strikes.

    And, the pin with a CCW wrist twist upsets his mind and body to such an extent that he cannot physically nor mentally resist any of what follows.

    Nor can he see them from that eyes towards the clouds physiology.

    So you basically can follow with any theme you desire.

    So learning the Waza for a belt test is different than LEARNING the Master Key Variations of any Waza.

    The latter part takes an entire lifetime.

    Thank you Dr. D.

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

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    Default Re: soft kenpo

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    Exactly. Nobody is just going to let you put them in a lock or hold. They will resist.
    Well,

    That's why you slap them first.

    It makes them think about the slap, causes confusion, and now just about any "lock" will work.

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

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