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Thread: Bass Akwards?

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    Kenpo Gary is offline
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    Default Bass Akwards?

    Maybe this will prompt a lively discussion. Many of the other striking arts (Traditional Karate and TKD) teach their forms in a manner that has the student moving from the abstract to the concrete with regard to their bunkai. That is, students practice combinations of base techniques strung together in a form without first learning their applications. Then over time, the student is introduced to their possible applications (bunkai, breakdowns etc.).

    The Tracy method approaches it from precisely the opposite end of things, by first teaching a plethora of concrete applications, then later stringing those techniques together to form a kata. The Tracy method is BASS AKWARDS you might say!

    The advantage of Traditional Karate's Approach, is that the kata is infinite as to possible number of self defense scenarios, and applications. The cost for Traditional Karate, is that the kata's meaning sometimes becomes abstract and obscure for the practitioner, especially for the novice.

    The advantage of the Tracy Approach, the kata is immediately relevant to self defense situtations that occur on the street. The cost, Tracy kata are limited as to their applications, at least in the mind of the novice practitioner.

    Motion Science (EPAK) has what some would regard a healthy compromise. With its alphabet of motions, equation formula, greater number of isolations within their forms, they tend to straddle fence that exists between the Traditional Karate method and that of Tracy schools. Of course, with all compromises you tend gain and lose. At times you gain infinity at expense of immediate relevance, other times you are gaining relevance at the expense of infinity.

    I am less familiar with the traditional grappling arts (Judo, JUjitsu), especially unfamiliar with their pedagogy and curriculum designs. What are waza, and how are waza taught. Are waza close in kind to kata, or more akin to our self defense techniques?

    If waza are akin to our Self Defense techniques, then maybe this shows our historical link to Jujitsu, that is beginning with the concrete/finite rather than the abstract/infinite.

    One last thought, if what I have said about Tracy kata remaining finite (but relevant) has any merit, the disadvantage of finitude is addressed at least in part through the enormous quantity of self defense material found in our many lengthy forms and hundreds of techniques.

    Kenpo Gary

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    Default Re: Bass Akwards?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpo Gary View Post
    The advantage of Traditional Karate's Approach, is that the kata is infinite as to possible number of self defense scenarios, and applications. The cost for Traditional Karate, is that the kata's meaning sometimes becomes abstract and obscure for the practitioner, especially for the novice.
    Often, two or three generations removed from the source, the bunkai is simply wrong.
    Dave

    "I consider that the spiritual life is the life of man's real self, the life of that interior self whose flame is so often allowed to be smothered under the ashes of anxiety and futile concern." - Thomas Merton


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    Default Re: Bass Akwards?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpo Gary View Post
    Maybe this will prompt a lively discussion. Many of the other striking arts (Traditional Karate and TKD) teach their forms in a manner that has the student moving from the abstract to the concrete with regard to their bunkai. That is, students practice combinations of base techniques strung together in a form without first learning their applications. Then over time, the student is introduced to their possible applications (bunkai, breakdowns etc.).

    The Tracy method approaches it from precisely the opposite end of things, by first teaching a plethora of concrete applications, then later stringing those techniques together to form a kata. The Tracy method is BASS AKWARDS you might say!

    The advantage of Traditional Karate's Approach, is that the kata is infinite as to possible number of self defense scenarios, and applications. The cost for Traditional Karate, is that the kata's meaning sometimes becomes abstract and obscure for the practitioner, especially for the novice.

    The advantage of the Tracy Approach, the kata is immediately relevant to self defense situtations that occur on the street. The cost, Tracy kata are limited as to their applications, at least in the mind of the novice practitioner.

    Motion Science (EPAK) has what some would regard a healthy compromise. With its alphabet of motions, equation formula, greater number of isolations within their forms, they tend to straddle fence that exists between the Traditional Karate method and that of Tracy schools. Of course, with all compromises you tend gain and lose. At times you gain infinity at expense of immediate relevance, other times you are gaining relevance at the expense of infinity.

    I am less familiar with the traditional grappling arts (Judo, JUjitsu), especially unfamiliar with their pedagogy and curriculum designs. What are waza, and how are waza taught. Are waza close in kind to kata, or more akin to our self defense techniques?

    If waza are akin to our Self Defense techniques, then maybe this shows our historical link to Jujitsu, that is beginning with the concrete/finite rather than the abstract/infinite.

    One last thought, if what I have said about Tracy kata remaining finite (but relevant) has any merit, the disadvantage of finitude is addressed at least in part through the enormous quantity of self defense material found in our many lengthy forms and hundreds of techniques.

    Kenpo Gary
    Keep in mind sir, the Tracy model is actually closer to the source material from the Chinese. The Okinawan/Japanese model introduced the so-called Bunkai and misinterpreted or changed it philosophically. Movements in Chinese Forms are designed to contain indexes of information, and not always a move-for-move application of the physical. This is also the reason for the flowery metaphorical descriptions, taught in conjunction with the physical activity. When presented together they present a lesson incapable of being written in any other form.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

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    Dr. Dave in da house (12-03-2007),Kenpo Gary (12-03-2007),Kenpodave (12-03-2007)

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