The Beauty of Long 5

[Kenpo Gary]

I cannot perform Long 5 in a very aesthetically pleasing manner. I am not sure that many people can. However, I witnessed Mr. Leo Tenner win with this kata in competition many years ago! When Mr. Tenner performed it, he brought the kata to life, literally making it a thing of beauty. The ground work and transitions were complimented by his long legs and superb balance, his timing of the movements were nearly flawless, and when he broke out the Eagle Claw technique, the audience burst into applause.

Having said all of that, I believe Form 5 is a thing of beauty even for those who can not perform it in such an aesthetically pleasing manner. For, the beauty can be discovered in its specifications for self defense, in the glory of the take down, the ground work, the stomps, the hidden feet etc. And all of us can perform it with serious intent, wholeheartedly and with focus power. If calibrating our defenses against imagined opponent's prepares us for ever present danger and potentials of actual ones, then working this form to the best of one's ability is certainly a thing of beauty.

[flying crane]

I used to hate long five. It is awkward and ugly in many ways. It just does not flow like many kata do.

I've been relearning it, and I am changing my mind about it.

[KenpoHank]

Form 5, for me, is one of the fun forms. I really enjoy the 5.

Here is an interesting form 5.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cnu5wa0q2U

When I first saw the video I thought it was a typo, I said "Heck, that's long 3". When I read the comments I saw that it was the original form 5. I wonder when the forms we practice today were canonized (if I can use that word).

[amylong]

I used to hate form 5 too.

I hated it mostly because I didn't understand it. I didn't understand the reason for it, why I was doing what I was doing, what the transitions meant, etc.

I got a lesson on it from a wonderful practitioner in Sweden and I completely changed my mind about it.

I have all my katas posted on my website except for form 5. I'll be re-recording it here soon and will post it.

I didn't post it before because I was horribly embarrassed by my performance of it.

It's not so bad now.

So maybe a greater understanding of the form will help your perception of it.

--Amy

[michaeledward]

Here again is a difference in systems. That Clip is of my Long Three ... which I understand to be Form 5 in the Tracy System.

I like our Form 5 better than our Form Long 3.

[flying crane]

Here again is a difference in systems. That Clip is of my Long Three ... which I understand to be Form 5 in the Tracy System.

I like our Form 5 better than our Form Long 3.

nope, long three is long three, and form five is form five.

Tracys has the same forms, short and long 1-3, and 4, and 5. These are very very similar to other Parker lineages.

Six thru eight might have some differences. I am not familiar with them, but at least some of them might have been developed independently or something. Maybe someone else can comment on this with more authority.

[amylong]

Here again is a difference in systems. That Clip is of my Long Three ... which I understand to be Form 5 in the Tracy System.

I like our Form 5 better than our Form Long 3.

Interesting. Would someone in the Tracy lineage talk about what your different forms are?

If form 5 is the same as long form 3 (epak), then what's in between?

Is Tiger and Crane and Bookset in there? I understand in Ireland, they call Book Set 'Form 4'.

Thanks!

--Amy

[amylong]

nope, long three is long three, and form five is form five.

Tracys has the same forms, short and long 1-3, and 4, and 5. These are very very similar to other Parker lineages.

Six thru eight might have some differences. I am not familiar with them, but at least some of them might have been developed independently or something. Maybe someone else can comment on this with more authority.

You beat me to it!

7 and 8 are totally different. I think six is fairly similar. I saw someone do it and I think there were some angle differences, but it looks fairly similar. I'll be looking at it again soon to be sure.

--Amy

[Blindside]

You beat me to it!

7 and 8 are totally different. I think six is fairly similar. I saw someone do it and I think there were some angle differences, but it looks fairly similar. I'll be looking at it again soon to be sure.

--Amy

6 is different, it shares the counter weapon theme to the AK Form 6, and there are a number of overlapping techniques, but the form is different, mostly different techs, different order, and overlapping techs are done on different angles.

Lamont

[flying crane]

Interesting. Would someone in the Tracy lineage talk about what your different forms are?

If form 5 is the same as long form 3 (epak), then what's in between?

Is Tiger and Crane and Bookset in there? I understand in Ireland, they call Book Set 'Form 4'.

Thanks!

--Amy

I had the opportunity to meet Tom Darcy who lives in Australia, but came out of the Ireland group. I believe they have what we would call Short and Long One and Two, and Short Three, and I think they just number them one thru Five. I dont recall if they had any others, T&C, or Book Set, or anything brought in from elsewhere or developed by anyone from the McSweeny lineage.

[KenpoHank]

I had the opportunity to meet Tom Darcy who lives in Australia, but came out of the Ireland group. I believe they have what we would call Short and Long One and Two, and Short Three, and I think they just number them one thru Five. I dont recall if they had any others, T&C, or Book Set, or anything brought in from elsewhere or developed by anyone from the McSweeny lineage.

Yup, I wonder if that was the way Mr McSweeny was taught by Mr. Parker. I am going to see Huk Planas tomorrow, maybe he can shed some light on the subject.

[Kenpodave]

I had the opportunity to meet Tom Darcy who lives in Australia, but came out of the Ireland group. I believe they have what we would call Short and Long One and Two, and Short Three, and I think they just number them one thru Five. I dont recall if they had any others, T&C, or Book Set, or anything brought in from elsewhere or developed by anyone from the McSweeny lineage.

I think you are right. I watched Tommy Jordan do "Form 6" and it is Long 4.

[Kenpodave]

My biggest problem with Long #5 is that most people that I have seen do it barely bend over, much less correctly do any of the ground techniques.

For example, in Dance of Death, the chops to the groin and back of the neck to the opponent lying on the ground are done without even bending over. The ankle grab in Startled Cat is shown as an "upper thigh" grab.

[Kenpo Gary]

My biggest problem with Long #5 is that most people that I have seen do it barely bend over,

Now herein lies the problem for some of us older guys, the older and fatter we get, the more difficult it becomes for us to bend over. I like those stomps and strikes to the ribs and kidney's (leap of death) they cause the opponent to react by rising up a bit, old fat guys then don't have to bend so far, ha! ha!

Clowning aside, you make a good point, we lose something of the realism of the kata if we fail to position our bodies properly.

Kenpo Gary

[jfarnsworth]

I realize this is in the Tracy's forum but I assume form 5 is just that in both styles. 5 is my least favorite of all the forms. Being out of position to begin the next technique is what makes me think there really isn't a true aesthetic appeal of this form.
I have seen a video of Mr. Wedlake performing 5 in a tournament. At tournament style speed. To say the least it was awesome but needs some minor modifications to make it tournament friendly. I'm far from perfect doing my own 5. Please don't take the couple of sentences above as a shot to him. 5 to me just isn't a great form.

[Kenpo Gary]

I met a fellow about 12 years ago at a tournament in Vegas, his name was Farnsworth had a Kenpo school there, his own style I believe, a very unique individual.

Kenpo Gary

[michaeledward]

Well, if Form 5, is Form 5 .... (regardless of that clip) ... I like it. I don't know if I am any good at it, but I like it.

I am curious about the comment "Startled Cat" ... as that has no meaning for me.

One of the things that really hit home as I was learning Form 5, is the amount muscle pain in my upper thighs. Working those transitions, even after training for six years, I was suprised how out of shape I felt.

One other thing that I see, is that Form 4 demonstrates in several places how to use an upward block with twist stance, to get to the outside and in Form 5 we use a crossover and unwind to change our direction, in several places. There is meaning in these things, I think.

[Blindside]

I am curious about the comment "Startled Cat" ... as that has no meaning for me.

Startled Cat is the Tracy name for Brushing the Storm, same motion, except performed against a punch rather than a club.

Lamont

[amylong]

My biggest problem with Long #5 is that most people that I have seen do it barely bend over, much less correctly do any of the ground techniques.

For example, in Dance of Death, the chops to the groin and back of the neck to the opponent lying on the ground are done without even bending over. The ankle grab in Startled Cat is shown as an "upper thigh" grab.

You shouldn't be bent at the waist to do dance of death. Bend your knees, yes, but not bend at the waist.

Anyone who does it on me and bends at the waist, I'm going to grab their head when I'm falling. I've toppled a lot of people that way.

If your thighs can take it, you shouldn't have to bend.

--Amy

[Jim Hanna]

My biggest problem with Long #5 is that most people that I have seen do it barely bend over, much less correctly do any of the ground techniques.

For example, in Dance of Death, the chops to the groin and back of the neck to the opponent lying on the ground are done without even bending over. The ankle grab in Startled Cat is shown as an "upper thigh" grab.

Yeah, I've noticed that too. Of course there are other technical problems, e.g. stepping back to do Dance of Death (puts you out of range on the nondominant side), and timing changes to make the form artistic and acceptable for competition (makes it pretty but loses value from a practical self defense perspective). I have been working on this form for awhile now. It is a difficult kata and one that can "run away" from the practitioner very easily unless he or she is disciplined and in command of what is occurring.

Jim