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Thread: Lessons From the Wood-shop

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    Default Lessons From the Wood-shop

    I said "wood-shop" not "wood-shed" I have learned plenty a lesson in the wood-shed as well. What I have in mind are two slogans that hung on the walls of my high school word working class that I believe are applicable to the art of Kenpo Karate.

    The first slogan is, "we learn by doing." This is certainly true of TRACY SYSTEM KENPO with the hundreds of techniques and variations, the many forms and hours of sparring practice. We learn by doing!

    Non-Tracy schools could use the slogan, "we learn by analysis", (analysis paralysis I say) OR, "we learn by hypothesis."

    I remember can my own instructor's unwillingness to discuss concepts at any length. He said, "stop discussing and hit the man."


    The other slogan in the high school wood-shop was, " measure twice, cut once."

    Tracy schools recognize that the measurements as to practical effectiveness of its system's techniques have long been accounted for, so there is no need to do further laborious measurements of the same.

    Non-Tracy schools regularly measure scrutinize, further analyze the measurements of their techniques. At some point we must stop measuring and go to work, apply what we know works rather than constantly scrutinizing our plan.

    Constipated moves (borrowed Ed Parker axiom) begin with indecision that arises from and rethinking most everything. Speed and reaction time come from motor memory acquired by volumes of practice. Measure twice, but not three, four or forty four times!

    These are lessons that the Kenpoist can learn from the woodshop!

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    Default Re: Lessons From the Wood-shop

    I did not proof read my post carefully. It should be "wood working class" not "word working"

    Gary

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    Default Re: Lessons From the Wood-shop

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpo Gary View Post
    I did not proof read my post carefully. It should be "wood working class" not "word working"

    Gary
    Try and copy & paste directly from the brochure next time, that may help. BTW, how much is Al paying you? ROFL

    Just kidding...

    Seriously though, most of us on KT like to endorse a broader view of our training and we try to respect one another regardless of background, lineage, or organization.

    We feel by keeping an open mind we can actually learn from one another as we all have something to contribute to the entire Kenpo/Kempo community.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Lessons From the Wood-shop

    Gary,

    be a little careful of how you present yourself. If you come across too strongly as holding your system (which happens to also be my system) as superior to everyone else, you are inviting some heated and perhaps hostile debate and you might find yourself less welcome here.

    I agree, Tracys is a great system, with a lot to offer. It works for me, I like my instructors, I like my classmates, and I love training.

    But Tracys is only one system of many in kenpo. I have not studied any other kenpo systems, and I am certainly not going to suggest that they aren't just as good, in their own way. What works well for me may not work so well for others, and vice-versa. everyone needs to find the method that fits them the best.

    So keep that in mind when you post. If people here think you are doing a bit more chest-thumping than is appropriate, they are going to call you to task for it. We try to learn from each other here, and a big part of that is recognizing that others have a different approach and point of view. It may be different from ours, but maybe there is something there we can benefit from.

    Feel free to debate with people and have disagreements, but make sure you do it respectfully, and don't come across as demeaning their methods or their lineage. that is something sure to get some negative attention.

    So, just a friendly suggestion, consider how you present yourself in your threads.

    Welcome to the forum.
    Michael


    de gustibus non disputante est.
    Negative Douche Bag Number One

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    Default Re: Lessons From the Wood-shop

    Kenpo Gary,

    I came out of the TraCO lineage under the AKKA banner. We weren't strong on words, and did glove up a lot. Being an engineer I ask a lot of questions, but most times didn't get answers. I appreciate the hows and the whys. I bet if you polled the gang you'd find non Tracy people hit the mats more than you think.

    don (el paso)
    Daffy, fighting with his $1.25 quarter staff : "Ho! Haha! Guard! Turn! Parry! Dodge! Spin! Ha! Thrust!" (quarter staff bounces off log, bending his beak. He straightens it back to normal, and starts speaking to himself) "Something's amiss here... hmm, let me run through it. Ho, haha, guard, turn, parry, dodge, spin, ha, thrust." (beak bends again) "Got it." (straightens beak, and starts his fighting moves again.) "Ho! Haha! Guard! Turn! Parry! Dodge! Spin!"

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    Default Re: Lessons From the Wood-shop

    Quote Originally Posted by don bohrer View Post
    Kenpo Gary,

    I came out of the TraCO lineage under the AKKA banner. We weren't strong on words, and did glove up a lot. Being an engineer I ask a lot of questions, but most times didn't get answers. I appreciate the hows and the whys. I bet if you polled the gang you'd find non Tracy people hit the mats more than you think.

    don (el paso)

    don,

    I expect that you are correct that many non Tracy people hit the mats frequently. My intention was not to offend anyone from those systems but to underscore for Tracy people (this is why I posted to the Tracy forum) that although such valuable methods are not necessarily unique to our system they are nonetheless common place in our schools. I would have posted on one of the other forums (EPAK, Hawaiian Kenpo etc.) had it been my intention to spur a lively debate. I wanted to encourage Tracy people with the greatness of our style, which is not to suggest other Kenpo styles are without merit.

    Your lineage makes me curious, approximately how much curriculum did Bill Paker change from Tom Connor? Early Traco Kenpo was almost identical to what I practice today.

    Gary

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    Default Re: Lessons From the Wood-shop

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpo Gary View Post
    Non-Tracy schools could use the slogan, "we learn by analysis", (analysis paralysis I say) OR, "we learn by hypothesis."

    I remember can my own instructor's unwillingness to discuss concepts at any length. He said, "stop discussing and hit the man."
    This reminds me of the jokes about which Captain could beat up whom, Kirk or Picard. The joke being Kirk would simply smack Picard while the latter was talking and talking. Then Kirk would steal the girl.

    While amusing, that argument is also quote pointless. Not unlike the Tracy/AKKI/EPAK/SL4/Kenpo5/... arguments.

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    Default Re: Lessons From the Wood-shop

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpo Gary View Post
    don,

    Your lineage makes me curious, approximately how much curriculum did Bill Paker change from Tom Connor? Early Traco Kenpo was almost identical to what I practice today.

    Gary
    Thats hard to say what changes Mr Packer made. At one time the system was 32 techs with variations and kata. The corriculum was reorganized into 20 techs plus many variations once Mr Packer formed AKKA. I will post a belt or two and the kata found in the system if you want to compare.

    don (el paso)
    Daffy, fighting with his $1.25 quarter staff : "Ho! Haha! Guard! Turn! Parry! Dodge! Spin! Ha! Thrust!" (quarter staff bounces off log, bending his beak. He straightens it back to normal, and starts speaking to himself) "Something's amiss here... hmm, let me run through it. Ho, haha, guard, turn, parry, dodge, spin, ha, thrust." (beak bends again) "Got it." (straightens beak, and starts his fighting moves again.) "Ho! Haha! Guard! Turn! Parry! Dodge! Spin!"

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    Default Re: Lessons From the Wood-shop

    I have read all that you have posted today, and if there is anymore of this we might have to start charging for ad space on the site.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpo Gary View Post
    I said "wood-shop" not "wood-shed" I have learned plenty a lesson in the wood-shed as well. What I have in mind are two slogans that hung on the walls of my high school word working class that I believe are applicable to the art of Kenpo Karate.
    There are lessons everywhere we all just need to be smart enough to know when to pay attention

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpo Gary View Post
    The first slogan is, "we learn by doing." This is certainly true of TRACY SYSTEM KENPO with the hundreds of techniques and variations, the many forms and hours of sparring practice. We learn by doing!
    That is typical of all martial artists, except for the UFC wannabes and armchair martial artists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpo Gary View Post
    Non-Tracy schools could use the slogan, "we learn by analysis", (analysis paralysis I say) OR, "we learn by hypothesis."
    How do you think anyone has every learned what work, in reality you try many things and then find out what works. How do you know what works by analyzing all your previous attempts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpo Gary View Post
    I remember can my own instructor's unwillingness to discuss concepts at any length. He said, "stop discussing and hit the man."
    That is great, but I have been to many a school and heard the same thing, sometimes it is because the theory and concepts are too much for the student to handle, but too often it has been because the instructor doesn't know them or more often how to express them to the student.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpo Gary View Post
    The other slogan in the high school wood-shop was, " measure twice, cut once."
    Very old axiom that is true everywhere in life

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpo Gary View Post
    Tracy schools recognize that the measurements as to practical effectiveness of its system's techniques have long been accounted for, so there is no need to do further laborious measurements of the same.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpo Gary View Post
    Non-Tracy schools regularly measure scrutinize, further analyze the measurements of their techniques. At some point we must stop measuring and go to work, apply what we know works rather than constantly scrutinizing our plan.
    Well if you want to play this game I guess i will be the one to step to the plate. Where did you gather your vast knowledge of "other systems or Non-Tracy schools" In most EPAK schools I have been to, as well as many traditional martial arts schools there is a set course to the curriculum. many a style asks you to question everything to find some answers for yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpo Gary View Post
    Constipated moves (borrowed Ed Parker axiom) begin with indecision that arises from and rethinking most everything. Speed and reaction time come from motor memory acquired by volumes of practice. Measure twice, but not three, four or forty four times!
    CONSTIPATED MOVES - Moves that tense prematurely, resulting in needless exertion that hinders speed. Describes those individuals who are so tense when blocking or striking that the speed and effect of their actions are hampered to a point of frustration. ED PARKER ENCYCLOPEDIA OF KENPO

    Know what you are talking about before using the term. And if we want to start quoting Ed Parker lets use something relevant. "I would rather have 10 techniques that work for me then 100 that work against me" 600 techniques when you include all the variations to Black Belt seems like a lot of chances for someone to have material that works against their body tyoe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpo Gary View Post
    These are lessons that the Kenpoist can learn from the woodshop!
    Other than showing that you have drank all the Kool Aid this thread really is a waste of space and peoples time
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Lessons From the Wood-shop

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad View Post
    CONSTIPATED MOVES - Moves that tense prematurely, resulting in needless exertion that hinders speed. Describes those individuals who are so tense when blocking or striking that the speed and effect of their actions are hampered to a point of frustration. ED PARKER ENCYCLOPEDIA OF KENPO

    Know what you are talking about before using the term. And if we want to start quoting Ed Parker lets use something relevant. "I would rather have 10 techniques that work for me then 100 that work against me" 600 techniques when you include all the variations to Black Belt seems like a lot of chances for someone to have material that works against their body tyoe.
    Perhaps I misused Mr. Parker's axiom, but is it not possible that such premature tension can in certain instances originate from undeveloped motor skills through an insufficient volume of practice? I know that my reaction time is better when I remain relaxed, and that I am the most relaxed when the techniques I will be utilizing are very familiar through volumes of practice.

    I agree with Mr. Parker, I want the ten techniques that work for me. But how do I discover what those techniques are? I was merely suggesting that Tracy Kenpo discovers what works through the volumes of techniques practiced rather than volumes of theory. To our credit or discredit very few Tracy schools are big on theory. Such theory may work well for non-Tracy schools. It might even work well for Tracy schools were they to adopt it. However, I believe the course for the Tracy Kenpoist is pretty well set, more techniques less theory.

    Mr. Parker's ten technique quote should not be taken out of context. This quote did not originate from a man who only taught ten techniques, it came from a man who taught 154 techniques plus extensions.

    I believe that the many Tracy techniques are relevant in that they provide a workable storehouse/treasure house of knowledge that can be drawn upon at any time. In the Tracy system these are more than mere theories in the mind, that may never have been practiced, these have been practiced many times. I believe that the EPAK extensions can function in a similar manner.

    It is sort of like target shooting where, you load the gun, practice, and reload. Tracy Kenpo is always loading and reloading.

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    Default Re: Lessons From the Wood-shop

    Hi Gary,

    It's most certainly okay to post about how you love what you're learning, etc, but you are being unnecessarily general. How much people hit the mats has much more to do with the individual and the school than the style.

    Rob and I have both done Tracy and EPAK and, speaking for myself, I have learned much from both.

    I wouldn't waste my time going to a school that didn't 'hit the mats'. I also have found, especially most recently, that learning more about the ins and outs of the techniques has helped me quite a bit. To see the connections between the moves makes it easier to move smoothly between them.

    Then it really is much closer to learning 10 moves that work for you, when you realize that 'this' move is really just Alternative Maces on a different plane or it's really 'crossing talon' with a block first.

    At any rate, I agree with Rob that the only purpose of this thread seems to be to insult other kenpo styles.

    --Amy
    Last edited by amylong; 11-17-2007 at 01:27 PM.
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    Default Re: Lessons From the Wood-shop

    Quote Originally Posted by J-squared View Post
    This reminds me of the jokes about which Captain could beat up whom, Kirk or Picard. The joke being Kirk would simply smack Picard while the latter was talking and talking. Then Kirk would steal the girl.

    While amusing, that argument is also quote pointless. Not unlike the Tracy/AKKI/EPAK/SL4/Kenpo5/... arguments.
    What!? Are you kidding!?! Of course Kirk would beat Piccard! ...geez....to even doubt....I mean.....geez.....man...
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Lessons From the Wood-shop

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpo Gary View Post

    Your lineage makes me curious, approximately how much curriculum did Bill Paker change from Tom Connor? Early Traco Kenpo was almost identical to what I practice today.

    Gary
    When I started in the AKKA, it was 35 techniques and 2 katas per belt. The black belt ranks had no techniques, and 3 katas. If I remember correctly, the system had something like 600 techniques, and 25 katas. Sometime in the early mid-90's the curriculum was revised to 20 techniques per belt, plus 2 katas. The material is all still there, just the requirements for each belt are less than they used to be.

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    Default Re: Lessons From the Wood-shop

    I think you are painting with a pretty broad brush, Gary. While what you say has certainly been my experience with Tracy's, it has also been my experience with every other non-Tracy kenpo school I have visited, trained in, or attended seminars in. Perhaps I have been lucky.

    I have had non-Tracy kenpoists who left previous schools come to my school and be amazed by our intensity, only to train for two weeks and leave my school. So, I don't put much stock in basing my opinion of an art on those who left it because they did not excel in a week or two, and hope others would not judge me that way either.

    Frankly, and we are both Tracy guys here, I think enough of my system that I can find ways to build it up without having to knock others down.

    And, in my years on the internet, I have found that most of the analysis paralysis happens on the internet. You know how it is. We don't get to turn the obsession off just because the day is ending.
    Dave

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    Default Re: Lessons From the Wood-shop

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    What!? Are you kidding!?! Of course Kirk would beat Piccard! ...geez....to even doubt....I mean.....geez.....man...
    Yeah, but Data would wipe the floor with Spock.
    Dave

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    Default Re: Lessons From the Wood-shop

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpodave View Post
    Yeah, but Data would wipe the floor with Spock.
    No way, Spock died and came back. Data just died.
    Double no way if Spock was having his "seven year itch"
    Kenpo, moving in open piecewise Bézier curves since 2011

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    Default Re: Lessons From the Wood-shop

    Quote Originally Posted by J-squared View Post
    No way, Spock died and came back. Data just died.
    Double no way if Spock was having his "seven year itch"
    Data can't die. He has dilithium crystal batteries!
    Dave

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    Default Re: Lessons From the Wood-shop

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    What!? Are you kidding!?! Of course Kirk would beat Piccard! ...geez....to even doubt....I mean.....geez.....man...

    Something to consider. Kirk only had two moves horizontal wedge strike and vertical wedge strike. Worked every time.
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    Default Re: Lessons From the Wood-shop

    My first school, sometimes considered a TKD based American Freestyle (I guess now you'd call it MMA), we hit the mats much more than Tracy system kenpo. Ionically, my Tracy instructor discussed much more why's and how's than anyone else. With all the techniques, I often got them mixed up and had my own add-ons.

    What I found odd was when we put students into unexplored territory some fared better than others and the significant difference is their understanding of the techniques to be able to apply them in ways never before experienced. 600 techniques are great to boast, but if the difference is a snap kick, does it warrant being a different technique? The way we approached teaching the different techniques with stepping to 4:30 vice 10:30, shuffling here, kicking there, was more a variation to the technique and not entirely a seperate technique. That way we taught the concepts surrounding the root technique.
    "Many years of training is wasted by one night of drinking"-oldslowguy

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    Default Re: Lessons From the Wood-shop

    Quote Originally Posted by oldslowguy View Post
    My first school, sometimes considered a TKD based American Freestyle (I guess now you'd call it MMA), we hit the mats much more than Tracy system kenpo. Ionically, my Tracy instructor discussed much more why's and how's than anyone else. With all the techniques, I often got them mixed up and had my own add-ons.
    You are also painting with a rather broad brush. Your TKD school may have hit the mats more than your Tracy system school, but that does not necessarily make that a system wide observation.

    What I found odd was when we put students into unexplored territory some fared better than others and the significant difference is their understanding of the techniques to be able to apply them in ways never before experienced. 600 techniques are great to boast, but if the difference is a snap kick, does it warrant being a different technique? The way we approached teaching the different techniques with stepping to 4:30 vice 10:30, shuffling here, kicking there, was more a variation to the technique and not entirely a seperate technique. That way we taught the concepts surrounding the root technique.
    Don't know if you are speaking of kenpo or TKD here, but I do know that what you say is right on from the kenpo perspective. The reason that we give them different names and put them in the curriculum specifically in Tracy's is to force the redundancy. Many students may not practice the variations of a concept on their own. Give it a name and reguire it for a test, and that problem is solved.
    Dave

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