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Thread: Tiger and Crane??

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    Default Tiger and Crane??

    At my school we do Tiger Set,
    but no Crane.
    I was wondering why these 2 somewhat
    different sets/forms are combined into a
    single form.
    or..............
    Is combing the whole point??
    or..............
    Is there something else??

    I don't get it,
    can anyone help??
    What have I learned from this???

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    Default Re: Tiger and Crane??

    There is another Tracy form called "little tiger" that I believe was created for tournament use. I wonder if this is what you are doing?

    This is an example of Tracy Tiger and Crane.
    http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/shodan/f...iger_crane.wmv

    linked from this site: http://www.kenpokarate.ca/


    Lamont
    Pekiti Tirsia Kali and Kenpo Karate
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    Default Re: Tiger and Crane??

    Thanks for the link,
    we do Tiger Set and it is basically
    the first 1/2 of Tiger and Crane.
    Just like the video until he goes in to
    the Crane portion.
    The moves look basically the same
    without such huge circles.

    As you can see from the video,
    he does the Tiger portion first
    then goes into the Crane portion.

    Back to my original question,
    any thoughts??
    What have I learned from this???

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    Default Re: Tiger and Crane??

    Do you know the history of T&C?

    It is the signature form of Hung Gar, the tiger generally represents the aggressive hard motions while crane represents softer (evasion, whipping strikes, etc).

    The duality of the two taught along side each other is to show the individual practitioner the need for both.

    Lamont
    Pekiti Tirsia Kali and Kenpo Karate
    www.blackbirdmartialarts.com

    “He, who will not reason, is a bigot; he, who cannot, is a fool; and he, who dares not, is a slave.”
    ~William Drummond

    "This person is as dangerous as an IED."

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    Default Re: Tiger and Crane??

    So combining is the whole point.

    Being a Chinese Form, I guess there
    is a strong emphasis on opposites,
    balance, yin-yang, etc...

    So breaking Tiger out of Tiger and Crane
    is a typical American thing to do
    What have I learned from this???

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    Default Re: Tiger and Crane??

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpo-Sloth View Post
    So combining is the whole point.

    Being a Chinese Form, I guess there
    is a strong emphasis on opposites,
    balance, yin-yang, etc...

    So breaking Tiger out of Tiger and Crane
    is a typical American thing to do
    My understanding is that the Tiger section is most often used in tournament competition. Doing the complete set might be considered to be too long.

    I can understand why some kenpo practitioners eliminate the Crane section. It is definitely different from kenpo and the war art mentality.
    I personally teach the whole set.

    Jim

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    Default Re: Tiger and Crane??

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpo-Sloth View Post
    So combining is the whole point.

    Being a Chinese Form, I guess there
    is a strong emphasis on opposites,
    balance, yin-yang, etc...

    So breaking Tiger out of Tiger and Crane
    is a typical American thing to do
    So would adopting a form from another style, thinking you are deriving the benefit of it, but ignoring all the foundational forms and skill building activities that are part of its native style.

    Do you think a TKDer would derive much benefit merely by learning Long 4 by rote? Sort of the same thing.

    Lamont
    Pekiti Tirsia Kali and Kenpo Karate
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    “He, who will not reason, is a bigot; he, who cannot, is a fool; and he, who dares not, is a slave.”
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    "This person is as dangerous as an IED."

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    Default Re: Tiger and Crane??

    Quote Originally Posted by Blindside View Post
    So would adopting a form from another style, thinking you are deriving the benefit of it, but ignoring all the foundational forms and skill building activities that are part of its native style.

    Do you think a TKDer would derive much benefit merely by learning Long 4 by rote? Sort of the same thing.

    Lamont
    Not exactly sure what your getting at.............

    Do you mean how Tiger & Crane was adopted into
    Kenpo without the prior foundational forms?
    or
    Do you mean how Tiger & Crane was adopted into
    Kenpo without the understanding of 5 elements and
    5 animals?
    or
    Do you mean how Tiger Set was broken out of Tiger & Crane
    at my school?
    What have I learned from this???

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    Default Re: Tiger and Crane??

    Uh, Yes, Yes, No.
    Pekiti Tirsia Kali and Kenpo Karate
    www.blackbirdmartialarts.com

    “He, who will not reason, is a bigot; he, who cannot, is a fool; and he, who dares not, is a slave.”
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    "This person is as dangerous as an IED."

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    Default Re: Tiger and Crane??

    This has been an informative thread
    Thanks
    What have I learned from this???

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    Default Re: Tiger and Crane??

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpo-Sloth View Post
    Not exactly sure what your getting at.............

    Do you mean how Tiger & Crane was adopted into
    Kenpo without the prior foundational forms?
    or
    Do you mean how Tiger & Crane was adopted into
    Kenpo without the understanding of 5 elements and
    5 animals?
    or
    Do you mean how Tiger Set was broken out of Tiger & Crane
    at my school?

    I'll try to give you a little more of the story.

    Hung Gar is a Southern Chinese art that has roots in Shaolin.

    One of its most famous forms is Fu Hok, or Tiger and Crane. It was created in the 1800s by Wong Fei-Hung, a very famous Hung Gar master, and something of a folk hero. This form combines the Tiger and Crane methods, as Lamont mentioned, Hard and Soft, but this is a bit of a simplification. Rather, it is more of the different animal's approach to fighting: Tiger is ferocious, straight forward, relies on power to destroy; Crane is elusive, supple, relies on speed to hit sensitive targets.

    When learning a martial art, it is best to learn the entire system because the material is based on a certain methodology and philosophy of how to approach combat. The techniques, drills, and forms are based on this philosophy and methodology, and you learn a system that builds upon this. Fu Hok is a more advanced form within Hung Gar. If you learn it without first establishing your base by learning the earlier material, you are probably missing a lot of the philosophy and methodology upon which Fu Hok is based, and you may not be doing it or understanding it to its full effectiveness. This is why it is often not a good idea to try and learn a bit of several arts and then simply mix them together. If the underlying methodology is vastly different, then the mix is like water and oil. It doesn't work well. While each method may be very valid and effective on its own, trying to force them together doesn't work.

    But at the same time, there is a fair amount of "borrowing" that goes on within Chinese martial arts. Some forms from one system get incorporated into another system. Usually, there is enough similarity between the systems that it still works well. I think Fu Hok is one such form that has been borrowed by other arts, not just kenpo.

    There are several versions of this form, as it has been changed by subsequent generations, and, like I said, borrowed by other arts. The best rendition and understanding of the form would be done by a traditional Hung Gar school. But some others still do a pretty good job with it as well.

    I practice a version that comes from a traditional Hung Gar school thru a kung fu sifu I have studied with for close to 10 years. It looks quite a bit different from other versions I have seen, including kenpo's version. I have yet to learn the actual kenpo version of the form, so I withhold my judgement of it at this time.

    Hope this clears the picture a bit.
    Michael


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    Default Re: Tiger and Crane??

    Quote Originally Posted by Blindside View Post
    Do you know the history of T&C?

    It is the signature form of Hung Gar, the tiger generally represents the aggressive hard motions while crane represents softer (evasion, whipping strikes, etc).

    The duality of the two taught along side each other is to show the individual practitioner the need for both.

    Lamont
    That was informative.

    Thank you Lamont.

    DOC JOHN

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