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Thread: Japanese Stranglehold (A,B,C)

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    Default Japanese Stranglehold (A,B,C)

    I have a question for someone knowledgeable in this. This is how I'm being shown the Japanese Stranglehold (a):
    While standing at an "at ease" stance, someone comes up from behind and attempts a stranglehold (semi left side). I'm to grab ahold of the arm with my right hand and hold away from my neck. I'm to step my left foot out, putting me into a horse stance, at the same time, turning my head to the left and driving a reverse left elbow into their solar plexus / stomach. This is where the problem in my head lies: They can't be too far to my left if they are putting a stranglehold on me. It seems like I would open them up more by moving into a horse stance in the opposite direction that they are standing on. So in this case, move into a right horse stance, which would more than likely pull them off-balance and leaning to their right, allowing a FANTASTIC opening into their solar plexus/stomach. I know that I am new to Am Kenpo and don't want to be a doubter but can someone help me on this? glenn.mchenry@gmail.com

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    Default Re: Japanese Stranglehold (A,B,C)

    The way I learned it is step to 9:00 (to the left) into a solid horse. Left hand covers or strikes the opponents eyes over the right shoulder. Right arm does:
    (A) elbow
    (B) Hammerfist to groin
    (C) Elbow and Hammerfist
    (D) elbow, hammerfist, grab groin pull straight up with tip of elbow raking along the way.

    (E) is any of the above other side.

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    Default Re: Japanese Stranglehold (A,B,C)

    J-Squared is correct. If you step out with the left leg, you need to use the right arm for striking, and vice versa.
    Dave

    "I consider that the spiritual life is the life of man's real self, the life of that interior self whose flame is so often allowed to be smothered under the ashes of anxiety and futile concern." - Thomas Merton


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    Default Re: Japanese Stranglehold (A,B,C)

    We've got a technique that's very similar. If the attackers choke hold is with the right arm, you step right into your horse stance and do an elbow, hammer fist and back knuckle with the left arm. You then spin out to the right, throwing off the arm. If it's an assisted hold (both arms used), you bend your knees to pull him forward as you do a left elbow to the solar plexus and a right rigid claw over your left shoulder to the eyes. Same finish as the A version.
    Be careful what you say, some may take it the wrong way.

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    Default Re: Japanese Stranglehold (A,B,C)

    Well, I'm puzzled by that one, i.e., stepping with the left foot and using the left arm to strike.

    I've applied the LVNR several times on the job and have always, given the choice, used my right arm to encircle the neck. BTW, if just one arm is encirciling the neck, it is a pretty useless, stupid hold.

    I teach my students to turn the head and tuck the chin into the crook of the elbow in order to obtain some protection for the lower airway. Then step to 10:30 with the left foot. I step to 10:30 because it makes it more difficult for the attacker to pull you backwards (which is his goal if he knows what he is doing), and also sets you up better for Japanese Strangle Hold "f", and "g" which are simple but effective throws.

    Jim

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    Default Re: Japanese Stranglehold (A,B,C)

    I have a question for someone knowledgeable in this. This is how I'm being shown the Japanese Stranglehold (a):
    While standing at an "at ease" stance, someone comes up from behind and attempts a stranglehold (semi left side). I'm to grab ahold of the arm with my right hand and hold away from my neck. I'm to step my left foot out, putting me into a horse stance, at the same time, turning my head to the left and driving a reverse left elbow into their solar plexus / stomach. This is where the problem in my head lies: They can't be too far to my left if they are putting a stranglehold on me. It seems like I would open them up more by moving into a horse stance in the opposite direction that they are standing on. So in this case, move into a right horse stance, which would more than likely pull them off-balance and leaning to their right, allowing a FANTASTIC opening into their solar plexus/stomach. I know that I am new to Am Kenpo and don't want to be a doubter but can someone help me on this?
    glenn.mchenry@gmail.com



    The above is a hard technique to work but offers wonderful lessons. Ideally, a properly timed elbow(left or right will work if one responds fast enough and is being attacked by an unskilled attacker). A skilled attacker will knock you out as he throws the choke on, thus no escape! Sad but true.

    If your first elbow misses, then a follow-up is much needed. Hopefully, you will have time to do the following before your balance is compromised. If your balance is compromised, then you will have to move gracefully to another technique quickly before you are choked out. Know what your follow-ups might be.

    Knowing what your follow-ups might be will give you the confidence, and patience to work this above technique, which in my opinion is very difficult do to the nature and severity of the attack. Lastly, have patience while your perceptual speed grows. In the mean time, cheat. Look behind you as the attack comes. You will notice that you will start performing better. Your timing will get better. After a while stop cheating and see how you do. Remember, there are no rules. Give yourself the opportunity to explore a little before getting frustrated.

    Best Regards,
    Carl

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    Default Re: Japanese Stranglehold (A,B,C)

    I have a question for someone knowledgeable in this. This is how I'm being shown the Japanese Stranglehold (a):
    While standing at an "at ease" stance, someone comes up from behind and attempts a stranglehold (semi left side). I'm to grab ahold of the arm with my right hand and hold away from my neck. I'm to step my left foot out, putting me into a horse stance, at the same time, turning my head to the left and driving a reverse left elbow into their solar plexus / stomach. This is where the problem in my head lies: They can't be too far to my left if they are putting a stranglehold on me. It seems like I would open them up more by moving into a horse stance in the opposite direction that they are standing on. So in this case, move into a right horse stance, which would more than likely pull them off-balance and leaning to their right, allowing a FANTASTIC opening into their solar plexus/stomach. I know that I am new to Am Kenpo and don't want to be a doubter but can someone help me on this? glenn.mchenry@gmail.com



    The above is a hard technique to work but offers wonderful lessons. Ideally, a properly timed elbow(left or right will work if one responds fast enough and is being attacked by an unskilled attacker). A skilled attacker will knock you out as he throws the choke on, thus no escape! Sad but true.

    If your first elbow misses, then a follow-up is much needed. Hopefully, you will have time to do the following before your balance is compromised. If your balance is compromised, then you will have to move gracefully to another technique quickly before you are choked out. Know what your follow-ups might be.

    Knowing what your follow-ups might be will give you the confidence, and patience to work this above technique, which in my opinion is very difficult do to the nature and severity of the attack. Lastly, have patience while your perceptual speed grows. In the mean time, cheat. Look behind you as the attack comes. You will notice that you will start performing better. Your timing will get better. After a while stop cheating and see how you do. Remember, there are no rules. Give yourself the opportunity to explore a little before getting frustrated.

    Best Regards,
    Carl

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    Default Re: Japanese Stranglehold (A,B,C)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Hanna View Post
    Well, I'm puzzled by that one, i.e., stepping with the left foot and using the left arm to strike.

    I've applied the LVNR several times on the job and have always, given the choice, used my right arm to encircle the neck. BTW, if just one arm is encirciling the neck, it is a pretty useless, stupid hold.

    I teach my students to turn the head and tuck the chin into the crook of the elbow in order to obtain some protection for the lower airway. Then step to 10:30 with the left foot. I step to 10:30 because it makes it more difficult for the attacker to pull you backwards (which is his goal if he knows what he is doing), and also sets you up better for Japanese Strangle Hold "f", and "g" which are simple but effective throws.

    Jim
    Hi Jim,

    Just curious if this way is taught with the understanding that the grab/choke has not been successfully applied at the time of your reaction?

    BTW... Agree with you. Japanese Stranglehold allows for some simple, yet elegant and effective throws.

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    Default Re: Japanese Stranglehold (A,B,C)

    Quote Originally Posted by sigung86 View Post
    Hi Jim,

    Just curious if this way is taught with the understanding that the grab/choke has not been successfully applied at the time of your reaction?

    BTW... Agree with you. Japanese Stranglehold allows for some simple, yet elegant and effective throws.
    I teach my students to use the left hand to grab the attacker's right wrist in order to reduce some of the pressure. I think that once the rear strangle/sleeper is properly set there is not too much you can do about it. But, if the attacker is trying to pull you backwards, then the sleeper/strangle may not be completely set, although you may have to spin and put yourself into a front headlock/guillotine hold and then execute a different escape. If he goes for setting the strangle first then there will be a moment's more time before he pulls backward.

    I have done it both ways on the job, i.e. pulling backwards and then setting the hold, or setting the hold and then pulling backwards. It just depended on the situation.

    Jim

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    Default Re: Japanese Stranglehold (A,B,C)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpodave View Post
    J-Squared is correct. If you step out with the left leg, you need to use the right arm for striking, and vice versa.
    Actually there is a "starting point" that seems not to have been mentioned.

    Which arm is he attempting to put the strangle hold on you with?

    1. THAT determins which direction you step

    2. and which direction you turn your head

    3. and which hand to help reduce the potential damage to your throat with

    4. and which hand you start your counter-attack with.

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

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    Default Re: Japanese Stranglehold (A,B,C)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Hanna View Post
    I have done it both ways on the job, i.e. pulling backwards and then setting the hold, or setting the hold and then pulling backwards. It just depended on the situation.Jim
    I love the front of the head hair grab and backwards torque to open up the space in the neck to set the Hadaka Jime.

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

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    Default Re: Japanese Stranglehold (A,B,C)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Hanna View Post
    I teach my students to turn the head and tuck the chin into the crook of the elbow in order to obtain some protection for the lower airway. Then step to 10:30 with the left foot. I step to 10:30 because it makes it more difficult for the attacker to pull you backwards (which is his goal if he knows what he is doing), and also sets you up better for Japanese Strangle Hold "f", and "g" which are simple but effective throws.Jim
    He's got to have a pretty loose grip on your neck for you to be able to step to 10:30.

    Is that what you are refering to?

    Maybe it's because people tend to not really put in on when they are fighting a guy in uniform?

    I'm real curious on this one.

    The rule (Master Key) is to "go where there is an energy void", so it is a possibility.

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

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    Default Re: Japanese Stranglehold (A,B,C)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpodave View Post
    J-Squared is correct. If you step out with the left leg, you need to use the right arm for striking, and vice versa.
    Yep.

    Presupposing you are stepping away from the pressure, and you are using the left arm to help protect the vulnerbility of the throat.

    Nice.

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

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    Default Re: Japanese Stranglehold (A,B,C)

    Quote Originally Posted by John M. La Tourrette View Post
    He's got to have a pretty loose grip on your neck for you to be able to step to 10:30.

    Is that what you are refering to?

    Maybe it's because people tend to not really put in on when they are fighting a guy in uniform?

    I'm real curious on this one.

    The rule (Master Key) is to "go where there is an energy void", so it is a possibility.

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette
    Not only do I step to 10:30 but I bend the torso forward alittle. I do not want to be pulled backwards at any cost. But you're right, the hold is not completely set. The hold is complete and set when the man is sitting down on his butt, with you behind him, bracing his back with your hip and leg and pressing down on his chest with your arm and applying forward pressure to his head, etc. (Of course, that is no longer a Lateral Vascular Neck Restraint, but a full sleeper/strangle--and there is no hair pulling allowed--afterall, people have cameras. LOL).

    Now, if I am being pulled backwards, the hold is not completely set, so I can spin into the attacker and place myself in a front headlock type of hold--which I consider to be much better than a fully set rear strangle. (perhaps I am moving into an energy void there?)
    Jim

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    Default Re: Japanese Stranglehold (A,B,C)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Hanna View Post
    Not only do I step to 10:30 but I bend the torso forward alittle. I do not want to be pulled backwards at any cost. But you're right, the hold is not completely set. Jim
    That make sense especially since most people do NOT know how to apply any type of valid strangle or choke hold (they are different).

    Thank You.
    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

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    Default Re: Japanese Stranglehold (A,B,C)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Hanna View Post
    (Of course, that is no longer a Lateral Vascular Neck Restraint, but a full sleeper/strangle--and there is no hair pulling allowed--afterall, people have cameras. LOL).Jim
    I no longer am involved in that occupation.

    And I am still involved in teaching Kenpo Karate.

    What do the courts think about hair grabs in general?

    It used to be okay.

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

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    Default Re: Japanese Stranglehold (A,B,C)

    Quote Originally Posted by John M. La Tourrette View Post
    That make sense especially since most people do NOT know how to apply any type of valid strangle or choke hold (they are different).

    Thank You.
    Dr. John M. La Tourrette
    Thank you. Over the years I have had several black belts from other systems come into my dojo to train for awhile. Most did not know how to properly set a strangle/sleeper/etc. In fact, I have to admit that I love to see their faces when I allow them to "choke/strangle" me, only to have me stand there and take it. (Then, its my turn-- ).

    I can't tell you how many domestic violence calls I have been on over the years where the female will be crying about the red marks about her neck, caused by her husband/boyfriend. Luckily, the guys either don't know what they are doing (my opinion), or they were just being "gentle".

    I don't think that a jury/judge viewing a video of any such violence would be too concerned about whether the choke/strangle was properly set or not. To them, it was properly set.

    Jim

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    Default Re: Japanese Stranglehold (A,B,C)

    Quote Originally Posted by John M. La Tourrette View Post
    I no longer am involved in that occupation.

    And I am still involved in teaching Kenpo Karate.

    What do the courts think about hair grabs in general?

    It used to be okay.

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

    Don't get me started. Big differences in how law enforcement is done today as compared to when I started (30 years ago). Some changes are good (e.g. community policing), some bad.

    For me, I have eliminated all the little voices from my head (what's the Chief think, what's the judge think, what's the ACLU think, what's the family think, etc, etc., etc.), and do what I know is right to do--quite freeing, really.

    I watch as the younger officers fret about what this person thinks and that person thinks, etc., etc. etc. (been there, done that).
    Jim

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    Default Re: Japanese Stranglehold (A,B,C)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Hanna View Post
    Don't get me started. Big differences in how law enforcement is done today as compared to when I started (30 years ago). Some changes are good (e.g. community policing), some bad.

    For me, I have eliminated all the little voices from my head (what's the Chief think, what's the judge think, what's the ACLU think, what's the family think, etc, etc., etc.), and do what I know is right to do--quite freeing, really.

    I watch as the younger officers fret about what this person thinks and that person thinks, etc., etc. etc. (been there, done that).
    Jim
    Actually I am very curious because I've not been in that field since 1987, when I retired from that type of life style.

    A hair grab was not assault and battery back then.

    I'm curious.

    Now if I frown at someone a woman judge can rule that I did Physically Assault them with my analogue.

    So, how's the law going on the streets now-a-days.

    Respectfully.
    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

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    Default Re: Japanese Stranglehold (A,B,C)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Hanna View Post
    I don't think that a jury/judge viewing a video of any such violence would be too concerned about whether the choke/strangle was properly set or not. To them, it was properly set.

    Jim
    You are right, of course, but I have trouble with the concept that the bozo who tried to strangle his wife may be guilty of a lesser crime because he did not know how to properly set the choke.
    Dave

    "I consider that the spiritual life is the life of man's real self, the life of that interior self whose flame is so often allowed to be smothered under the ashes of anxiety and futile concern." - Thomas Merton


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