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Thread: The whole brown belt 'thing'

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    Default The whole brown belt 'thing'

    So from time to time in my research on the wonderful internet I see someone saying how the Tracy's don't really know what they are talking about because when they left Mr. Parker they were only brown belts. According to my research, this is not true, and I have even seen scanned pictures of their certificate promoting them to shodan. So my question is, where does this misinformation come from, and why? Of course since Mr. Parker is no longer with us, I'm sure the complete answer is lost forever... I've even read so much of people accusing Mr. Parker of never getting a black belt on sites like http://www.tracyskenpokarate.com/Ken...an%20Kenpo.htm which poses all sorts of stuff I hadn't heard before. Now I'm at a loss for what is true, and what is not.
    "Given enough time, any man may master the physical. With enough knowledge, any man may become wise. It is the true warrior who can master both....and surpass the result." - Tien T'ai
    "If you train very hard, you will be very good." - Remy Presas

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    Default Re: The whole brown belt 'thing'

    It's all politics.

    Remember almost every instructor out there is a small business person trying to earn enough money to feed their family and pay their mortgage. There is a certain measure of ego that needs to be expressed when one puts their own name on a shingle over the door of a business. By the very nature of running a business, most need to puff themselves up so that students will exchange cash for knowledge.

    Sometimes, the bad side of that coin is to deflate the other guy.

    Is your instructor teaching you enough material to justify what he asks from you for the money? Then don't sweat it.

    If you can spend time with your instructor's instructor, even better.
    How about your instructor's instructor's instructor? Is he available to you? How often do these people meet and train?

    If all that makes sense, then don't sweat it.

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    Default Re: The whole brown belt 'thing'

    I have trained in Tracy's Kenpo. They made no bones about their hate for Mr. Parker. According to them Mr. Tracy spent many years learning the source Kenpo from China and Hawaii independent of Mr. Parker. I have no reason to doubt this claim.
    Sean

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    Default Re: The whole brown belt 'thing'

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoChanger View Post
    I have trained in Tracy's Kenpo. They made no bones about their hate for Mr. Parker. According to them Mr. Tracy spent many years learning the source Kenpo from China and Hawaii independent of Mr. Parker. I have no reason to doubt this claim.
    Sean

    actually, according to my instructor who studied directly under the Tracys, they were still on fairly decent terms up until Mr. Parker's death. Apparently Al had a cordial telephone conversation with Mr. Parker just a couple of weeks before.

    My instructor's opinion is that the rift is perceived by later generations as much wider than it actually was. Yes, they split to do things the way the felt was best, it was a business decision as well as a decision about how to handle the art itself, and on this they disagreed and perhaps there was some level of bad-mouthing from both parties. But I think they stayed on better terms overall than what many people believe.
    Michael


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    Default Re: The whole brown belt 'thing'

    Mr. Parker actually made the brown belt statement himself in a magazine interview. The complete interview is at this link:

    http://www.ctaikido.com/pix/article%...thEdParker.pdf

    Portions of this interview were discussed in another thread here a while back, but Mr. Parker clearly makes this statement. I am operating under the assumption that the magazine did not misprint or misrepresent what Mr. Parker stated.

    Al Tracy was promoted to 3rd Dan by Mr. Parker, and he has posted copies of his certificates, with Mr. Parker's siganture on them.
    Last edited by flying crane; 05-09-2007 at 05:09 PM.
    Michael


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    Default Re: The whole brown belt 'thing'

    Quote Originally Posted by flying crane View Post
    actually, according to my instructor who studied directly under the Tracys, they were still on fairly decent terms up until Mr. Parker's death. Apparently Al had a cordial telephone conversation with Mr. Parker just a couple of weeks before.

    My instructor's opinion is that the rift is perceived by later generations as much wider than it actually was. Yes, they split to do things the way the felt was best, it was a business decision as well as a decision about how to handle the art itself, and on this they disagreed and perhaps there was some level of bad-mouthing from both parties. But I think they stayed on better terms overall than what many people believe.
    It was pretty much out of their hands by that time.
    sean

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    Default Re: The whole brown belt 'thing'

    Quote Originally Posted by flying crane View Post
    actually, according to my instructor who studied directly under the Tracys, they were still on fairly decent terms up until Mr. Parker's death. Apparently Al had a cordial telephone conversation with Mr. Parker just a couple of weeks before.

    My instructor's opinion is that the rift is perceived by later generations as much wider than it actually was. Yes, they split to do things the way the felt was best, it was a business decision as well as a decision about how to handle the art itself, and on this they disagreed and perhaps there was some level of bad-mouthing from both parties. But I think they stayed on better terms overall than what many people believe.
    Yep. They had a falling out but it wasn't as bad as history paints it.
    Be careful what you say, some may take it the wrong way.

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    Default Re: The whole brown belt 'thing'

    Bottom line is whether or not it's Tracy or Parker, it's "Kenpo". Both systems are legitimate and both men and their contributions deserve respect. That's all you really need to know.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: The whole brown belt 'thing'

    Quote Originally Posted by flying crane View Post
    actually, according to my instructor who studied directly under the Tracys, they were still on fairly decent terms up until Mr. Parker's death. Apparently Al had a cordial telephone conversation with Mr. Parker just a couple of weeks before.

    My instructor's opinion is that the rift is perceived by later generations as much wider than it actually was. Yes, they split to do things the way the felt was best, it was a business decision as well as a decision about how to handle the art itself, and on this they disagreed and perhaps there was some level of bad-mouthing from both parties. But I think they stayed on better terms overall than what many people believe.
    Well,
    Not really, but sometimes, and "sort of".

    When Al, Jim and Will left, they took all their notes, tapes and processes that they'd recorded, with them.

    A lot of animosity back then in 59.

    They got together business wise about 64, or so.

    Then badmouthing started real bad.

    Him not being X. Them not being X. blab, blab, blab.

    Sort of interesting from the side lines.

    And, you are correct, they did "talk" back and forth. At least in the later years.

    For awhile there the Tracy's were being so badly bad-mouthed that anyone claiming to be a Tracy's school were a thing to be avoided, even if you were a Tracy's school.

    Interesting how the evils of lies and negative propaganda can be used so effectively.

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

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    Default Re: The whole brown belt 'thing'

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    Bottom line is whether or not it's Tracy or Parker, it's "Kenpo". Both systems are legitimate and both men and their contributions deserve respect. That's all you really need to know.
    Ha-ha.

    NOW they really want to know the real history.

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

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    Default Re: The whole brown belt 'thing'

    Quote Originally Posted by flying crane View Post
    Mr. Parker actually made the brown belt statement himself in a magazine interview. The complete interview is at this link:

    http://www.ctaikido.com/pix/article%...thEdParker.pdf

    Portions of this interview were discussed in another thread here a while back, but Mr. Parker clearly makes this statement. I am operating under the assumption that the magazine did not misprint or misrepresent what Mr. Parker stated.

    Al Tracy was promoted to 3rd Dan by Mr. Parker, and he has posted copies of his certificates, with Mr. Parker's siganture on them.
    Yep.

    The hate flowed pretty strong back then.

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

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    Default Re: The whole brown belt 'thing'

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    Bottom line is whether or not it's Tracy or Parker, it's "Kenpo". Both systems are legitimate and both men and their contributions deserve respect. That's all you really need to know.
    That might be all I need to know, but being a student of Kenpo, I feel a need to know the truth, although I think it's been well covered here. What about the statement of Mr. Parker never getting shodan under Mitose?
    "Given enough time, any man may master the physical. With enough knowledge, any man may become wise. It is the true warrior who can master both....and surpass the result." - Tien T'ai
    "If you train very hard, you will be very good." - Remy Presas

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    Default Re: The whole brown belt 'thing'

    Quote Originally Posted by Dharma_Punk View Post
    That might be all I need to know, but being a student of Kenpo, I feel a need to know the truth, although I think it's been well covered here. What about the statement of Mr. Parker never getting shodan under Mitose?
    Hunnn?

    I think you are getting the names confused.

    Mr. Parker never trained with Mitose.

    Mr. Parker did train with Chow.

    I really suggest that you go to Al Tracy's site and read what is over there in the historical articles.

    This site has a link to that site.

    ©Dr. John M. La Tourrette
    I'm done with this thread.

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    Default Re: The whole brown belt 'thing'

    Your right, I did get the names confused. My mistake.
    "Given enough time, any man may master the physical. With enough knowledge, any man may become wise. It is the true warrior who can master both....and surpass the result." - Tien T'ai
    "If you train very hard, you will be very good." - Remy Presas

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    Default Re: The whole brown belt 'thing'

    Quote Originally Posted by jdinca View Post
    Yep. They had a falling out but it wasn't as bad as history paints it.
    Actually, it was worse.

    I was there, and I did hear a lot of slander, but mostly from one side.

    I say let the dead judge the dead.

    Al Tracy is alive and is doing a great job for Kenpo here in the United States and WORLD WIDE.

    Lots of people that used to be with John McSweeny, that are now with Al, from Europe and from Australia.

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

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    Default Re: The whole brown belt 'thing'

    Ed Parker and the Tracy's had a falling out when the Tracy's were brown belts. Basically, all of Ed Parker's black belts at the time left Parker to train with Jimmy Woo. When the Tracy's showed up to teach their classes, Parker accused them of orchestrating the whole thing. The Tracy's threw their brown belts on the desk and left.

    So, yes, they were brown belts when they left Ed Parker. They were back running the school within a couple of months. They received rank thru sandan from Parker, and when Parker formed the IKKA, he handed the KKAA over to the Tracy's.

    When Parker made that statement years later, he was misrepresenting the event.
    Dave

    "I consider that the spiritual life is the life of man's real self, the life of that interior self whose flame is so often allowed to be smothered under the ashes of anxiety and futile concern." - Thomas Merton


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    Default Re: The whole brown belt 'thing'

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpodave View Post
    Ed Parker and the Tracy's had a falling out when the Tracy's were brown belts. Basically, all of Ed Parker's black belts at the time left Parker to train with Jimmy Woo. When the Tracy's showed up to teach their classes, Parker accused them of orchestrating the whole thing. The Tracy's threw their brown belts on the desk and left.

    So, yes, they were brown belts when they left Ed Parker. They were back running the school within a couple of months. They received rank thru sandan from Parker, and when Parker formed the IKKA, he handed the KKAA over to the Tracy's.

    When Parker made that statement years later, he was misrepresenting the event.
    Thank you Dave for a wonderful contribution to this thread.

    I did not know those particulars...at least I did not remember them.

    DOC JOHN

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