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Thread: Lost techniques

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    Default Lost techniques

    I've read several times in other forums about "Lost Techniques."

    Does anyone have such a list, and why are these not into circulation anymore?
    " Come with me, and I will complete your trainning."

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    Default Re: Lost techniques

    I have read that list very recently, and most of the techniques were in the Tracy's curriculum when I was learning it.



    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Kenpo
    I've read several times in other forums about "Lost Techniques."

    Does anyone have such a list, and why are these not into circulation anymore?
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Lost techniques

    Spreading the Branch came from Reprimanding the Bears and was replaced by Captured Twigs.

    The techniques Sword and Hammer, Alternating Maces, and Grasp of Death came from Jim Mitchell but the original techniques were The Pincher, Intellectual Departure, and Aggressive Twins.

    Jamie Seabrook
    www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

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    Default Re: Lost techniques

    Dr. Kenpo


    Were you referring to the EPAK techniques or the Tracy techniques, knowing that you are a Tracy stylist I was assuming you were asking about the Tracy techniques.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Lost techniques

    I am not certain if any were lost, per se. I teach Intellectual Departure and Spreading Branch, both found later on in Brown Belt or Black Belt extensions. The history of where the techniques are is out there. My first Kenpo Black was in a Traco or Tracy derived system. More techniques, more variations, but not necessarily more sophisticated.

    Doc, Mr. Conatser, or any of the genuine Mr. Parker students can give you the "history" and where the techniques went or why abandoned or modified. For example Inward Defense became Delayed Sword, rearranged to teach and take advantage of and to teach principles, not just the movement. I particularly like the principle of Borrowed Force as applied in Delayed Sword, as v. Inward Defense (which is also fine for what it does).

    -Michael
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    Default Re: Lost techniques

    True Michael...but I think most people aren't still teaching these techniques.



    Jamie Seabrook

    www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

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    Default Re: Lost techniques

    The studio I'm involved with teaches Aggressive Twins, Spreading Branch, and Intellectual Departure. We don't have Alternating Maces, Captured Twigs, Sword and Hammer, Circling Windmills, Reversing Circles, Fatal Cross, Or Unfurling Crane. It's not that we took those particular 7 out because we do them from time to time it's just that they are not in the curriculum. No room for the last 4 except in general practice in the studio.

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    Default Re: Lost techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Kenpo
    I've read several times in other forums about "Lost Techniques."

    Does anyone have such a list, and why are these not into circulation anymore?
    Having read the rest of the thread, I cannot tell whether you are referring to Parker's Kenpo or Tracy's.

    My understaning of Parker's tells me that he pared the system down to the 154 plus extensions and basically kept only the techniques that could be linked to the Master Keys.

    As far as Tracy's, I have heard that there are roughly 200 techniques that are not in the Tracy's curriculum that are taught most often as routines in group classes.

    Al Tracy has talked about putting them on paper in the 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th degree manuals, not as requirements, but as references for those that may want to learn and use them.
    Dave

    "I consider that the spiritual life is the life of man's real self, the life of that interior self whose flame is so often allowed to be smothered under the ashes of anxiety and futile concern." - Thomas Merton


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    Default Re: Lost techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpodave
    Having read the rest of the thread, I cannot tell whether you are referring to Parker's Kenpo or Tracy's.

    My understaning of Parker's tells me that he pared the system down to the 154 plus extensions and basically kept only the techniques that could be linked to the Master Keys.

    As far as Tracy's, I have heard that there are roughly 200 techniques that are not in the Tracy's curriculum that are taught most often as routines in group classes.

    Al Tracy has talked about putting them on paper in the 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th degree manuals, not as requirements, but as references for those that may want to learn and use them.
    Tracy's Kenpo!
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    Default Re: Lost techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpodave
    Having read the rest of the thread, I cannot tell whether you are referring to Parker's Kenpo or Tracy's.

    My understaning of Parker's tells me that he pared the system down to the 154 plus extensions and basically kept only the techniques that could be linked to the Master Keys.

    As far as Tracy's, I have heard that there are roughly 200 techniques that are not in the Tracy's curriculum that are taught most often as routines in group classes.

    Al Tracy has talked about putting them on paper in the 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th degree manuals, not as requirements, but as references for those that may want to learn and use them.
    Tracy Kenpo!
    " Come with me, and I will complete your trainning."

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    Default Re: Lost techniques

    A listing of techniques described as "lost" may be found at www.kenpousa.com/missbelt.htm. They are Chinese/Tracy's techniques, and as stated on the site, they are still taught at some schools (including the one where I was a student).

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    Default Re: Lost techniques

    The Missing Belt Techniques I read on that Website,are still mostly used in the Tracys System today...
    Yours Truly
    Kenpo0324

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    Default Re: Lost techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Strausbaugh
    A listing of techniques described as "lost" may be found at www.kenpousa.com/missbelt.htm. They are Chinese/Tracy's techniques, and as stated on the site, they are still taught at some schools (including the one where I was a student).
    All of the techniques listed are still a part of the Tracy's curriculum. Falling Heel is now called Falling Blades, and Spreading the Reeds is Double Blades.

    There are, however, approximately 200 other techniques, that, according to Ted Sumner, never made it into the belt curriculum. Dr. Sumner, as well as a few others that have the techs written down, still use them in group classes.
    Dave

    "I consider that the spiritual life is the life of man's real self, the life of that interior self whose flame is so often allowed to be smothered under the ashes of anxiety and futile concern." - Thomas Merton


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    Default Re: Lost techniques

    Mr C told me that these techniques aren't really lost, they just aren't required as a part of the belt charts. What he told me that as we become more comfortable with the system and understand the process better, we go back periodically and reexamine it. In each of our reexaminations we look at the different points of view of how the system was developped. Intellectual Departure may have been deemed a bit sophisticated for a yellow belt learning the system for the first time, but what about a black belt that is reexaming the system?
    Just because you do something one way, does not mean that everyone else does it that way, or that it is even the correct way.

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    Default Re: Lost techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by Seig
    Mr C told me that these techniques aren't really lost, they just aren't required as a part of the belt charts. What he told me that as we become more comfortable with the system and understand the process better, we go back periodically and reexamine it. In each of our reexaminations we look at the different points of view of how the system was developped. Intellectual Departure may have been deemed a bit sophisticated for a yellow belt learning the system for the first time, but what about a black belt that is reexaming the system?
    This is why I am lost on whether we are discussing Tracy's or Parker's. Intellectual Departure is one of the Master Keys of EPAK, but is not currently in the system. Circle of China is the Tracy's technique that most closely resembles Intellectual Departure. It is taught in blue belt from the left knee down position.

    Regarding lost techniques and curriculums, I agree with Mr. C's assessment above. There is also only so much that will fit into a curriculum without it getting too bogged down. I once asked Al Tracy why there were 5 variations of Front Bearhug. He responded with, "I didn't want to write the other 85 of them down."
    Dave

    "I consider that the spiritual life is the life of man's real self, the life of that interior self whose flame is so often allowed to be smothered under the ashes of anxiety and futile concern." - Thomas Merton


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    Default Re: Lost techniques

    Well since this the Tracy's section and Dr. Kenpo said it was the Tracy's techniques I will assume we are still discussing the Tracy's curriculum.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Lost techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad
    Well since this the Tracy's section and Dr. Kenpo said it was the Tracy's techniques I will assume we are still discussing the Tracy's curriculum.
    Correct young one, now drink up!
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    Default Re: Lost techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook
    Spreading the Branch came from Reprimanding the Bears and was replaced by Captured Twigs.

    The techniques Sword and Hammer, Alternating Maces, and Grasp of Death came from Jim Mitchell but the original techniques were The Pincher, Intellectual Departure, and Aggressive Twins.

    Jamie Seabrook
    www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com
    Jim "contributed" to the creation of these techniques, however Mr. Parker created several versions of the actual technniqes himself. Jim performed his versions of these techniques on video and do not resemble the final versions as I know them.
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    Default Re: Lost techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by kenposatori
    For example Inward Defense became Delayed Sword, rearranged to teach and take advantage of and to teach principles, not just the movement. I particularly like the principle of Borrowed Force as applied in Delayed Sword, as v. Inward Defense (which is also fine for what it does).

    -Michael
    Minor correction. Many of the techniques in Tracy's were changed to intentionally, at least in name only, differentiate from the Parker material. In many cases the technique itself was essentially the same but the names were changed. In other cases, names remained the same with minor variation on technique themes.

    The stories of Parker "stripping" the system and leaving out techniqes is only partially true. Parker never installed certain elements in his commercial versions of Kenpo whereas Tracy commercial versions counted every variation on the same technique as a separate technique. What Tracy called a separate technique was addressed in the Parker commercial versions as "what if's." It is simply a numbers game and neither number reflects the true nature of either material.

    What is more important is to address how the most popular version of commercial and motion based Kenpo is actually a divergence from the Parker material as opposed to being THE Parker material.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

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    Cool Re: Lost techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Kenpo
    I've read several times in other forums about "Lost Techniques."

    Does anyone have such a list, and why are these not into circulation anymore?
    There are NO LOST TECHNIQUES......... only ones you are not aware of......

    * Why is there always time to do it over, when there is never time to do it right?
    * K
    -knowledge E-enriches N-nice P-people O-only
    * All I ask for is ... Measurable Progress in Reasonable Time .....
    * Time will either Promote you or Expose You!
    * There are two ways of spreading the light.... 1]. to be the candle or 2]. the mirror that reflects it!
    * It's not what you take with you when you go....... but rather what you leave behind!


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