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Thread: Lost techniques

  1. #21
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    Thumbs up Re: Lost techniques

    Creating hords of techniques (variable expansions) at one time was new and fun... but... it was soon replaced by by a cleaner logical curriculum that was more principaly based and less "drill oriented".

    Once the "variable expansion era" was established during the evolution of Ed Parkers American Kenpo, the equation formula and re-arrangement concepts developed, it was time to develop and recognize "keys" instead of the endless creation of self defense techniques (which if these ideas are understood the student can develop what is useful for himself). This led to the development of the 154 base techniques and the revelation of the "Master Keys" to the system.

    During this process, many techniques were "adjusted", enhanced, refined, improved, updated or reorganized.

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    Default Re: Lost techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc
    Jim "contributed" to the creation of these techniques, however Mr. Parker created several versions of the actual technniqes himself. Jim performed his versions of these techniques on video and do not resemble the final versions as I know them.
    Thanks Mr. Chapel. I was partially aware of this. My question for you is this: why do some Kenpo "seniors" refuse to teach these specific few techniques if they were created (or recreated) by Mr. Parker?

    Jamie Seabrook
    www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

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    Thumbs up Re: Lost techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc

    The stories of Parker "stripping" the system and leaving out techniqes is only partially true. Parker never installed certain elements in his commercial versions of Kenpo whereas Tracy commercial versions counted every variation on the same technique as a separate technique. What Tracy called a separate technique was addressed in the Parker commercial versions as "what if's." It is simply a numbers game and neither number reflects the true nature of either material.
    Nicely put!

    Jamie Seabrook
    www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

  4. #24
    kenpoman Guest

    Wink Re: Lost techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Strausbaugh
    A listing of techniques described as "lost" may be found at www.kenpousa.com/missbelt.htm. They are Chinese/Tracy's techniques, and as stated on the site, they are still taught at some schools (including the one where I was a student).
    WEll i currently train in the tracy kenpo system under Mr. Jim Hanna. The techniques that are said to be lost in this link above are not lost at all. I know everyone of these techs. They are all taught in Mr. hanna school. It would be a real shame is these tech. were stripped out of any system they have such great lessons behind them such as Striking mace one of my fav. I think it is purple #1. It has so much power and destructive force and so many ext. can be done with it. I really hope that sensi's would teach everyone these tech.

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Lost techniques

    Let me add this, after reading all this stuff about the Tracy kenpo
    and all the other hog wash about the techs,
    and about other people teaching them?? well let me tell everyone something
    that ever your teacher don't know(all depends how old he/she is)
    you see back in the middle 60's (thats right) Jim and Al Tracy had this thing going as to were they would hire someone from other stylers to teach his kenpo(how?) he would give them the techs sheet and show them what to do with it,i know i was there in 1965 i was only 10 at the time.
    but the tracys techs are out there i have the one from the 60's in my desk in my school still, but thats how it was back then, also Mr Parker did the same
    so who"s boat do you want to be in?? it really don't matter because look at were we are today,it all worked out gor the best(i know for me it did)
    " Resolve to be tender with the young,compassionate with the aged,sympathetic with the striving,tolerant with the weak and wrong..... Because sometime in your life you will have been all of these"

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    John M. La Tourrette (05-17-2007)

  7. #26
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    Default Re: Lost techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by lonekimono10
    Let me add this, after reading all this stuff about the Tracy kenpo and all the other hog wash about the techs,
    and about other people teaching them?? well let me tell everyone something
    that ever your teacher don't know(all depends how old he/she is)
    you see back in the middle 60's (thats right) Jim and Al Tracy had this thing going as to were they would hire someone from other stylers to teach his kenpo(how?) he would give them the techs sheet and show them what to do with it,i know i was there in 1965 i was only 10 at the time.
    That's actually fairly common knowledge. It brought some great martial artists from other styles to kenpo, such as Joe Lewis and Roger Greene.
    Dave

    "I consider that the spiritual life is the life of man's real self, the life of that interior self whose flame is so often allowed to be smothered under the ashes of anxiety and futile concern." - Thomas Merton


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    Default Re: Lost techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpodave View Post
    That's actually fairly common knowledge. It brought some great martial artists from other styles to kenpo, such as Joe Lewis and Roger Greene.
    Yep.

    It's one of the things that brough me to Tracy's back in 73, after 23 years of doing other stuff.

    I loved the structure and organization.

    That was NOT normally in any martial arts system back then.

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

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    Default Re: Lost techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpodave View Post
    My understaning of Parker's tells me that he pared the system down to the 154 plus extensions and basically kept only the techniques that could be linked to the Master Keys.

    As far as Tracy's, I have heard that there are roughly 200 techniques that are not in the Tracy's curriculum that are taught most often as routines in group classes.

    Al Tracy has talked about putting them on paper in the 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th degree manuals, not as requirements, but as references for those that may want to learn and use them.
    What is cool,

    Is that the 3 brothers took notes of what Mr. Parker taught them, even to the stuff done on the fly in group classes as drills to get down the master keys.

    And when they broke away, they took their notes.

    Mr. Parker did NOT have their notes, but his own original notes that were much less detailed.

    So many of Mr. Parker's techniques became lost because of "no records" being taken or written down of what he actually did, by him.

    And I do understand that.

    I've made up thousands of speed drills, and I've only written down or video taped hundreds.

    The ones not written down or taped are "lost".

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette
    The Speed Man

  11. #29
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    Default Re: Lost techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGoldenOne View Post
    Creating hords of techniques (variable expansions) at one time was new and fun... but... it was soon replaced by by a cleaner logical curriculum that was more principaly based and less "drill oriented".

    Once the "variable expansion era" was established during the evolution of Ed Parkers American Kenpo, the equation formula and re-arrangement concepts developed, it was time to develop and recognize "keys" instead of the endless creation of self defense techniques (which if these ideas are understood the student can develop what is useful for himself). This led to the development of the 154 base techniques and the revelation of the "Master Keys" to the system.

    During this process, many techniques were "adjusted", enhanced, refined, improved, updated or reorganized.

    Some people may think that the "drill oriented" method of instruction is inferior to a more "enhanced, refined, improved," etc etc etc curiculum. I do not. Its like learning to write poetry. You can study a few poems for specific lessons and after learning a few, then explain quite fluently all the concepts of a poem--and still not be able to write one. To write a poem, one must have developed the "ear"--and that is achieved by reading many poems, even if the lessons are redundant. I hold that the same is true for kenpo. Drill oriented redundancy with many variations is a great teaching tool if one is interested in true self defense.

    In fact, I like that phrase "drill oriented redundancy" so much I'm going to seize it as my own. I can't help it. Cops like that kind of talk. LOL

    Jim

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    Default Re: Lost techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Hanna View Post
    Some people may think that the "drill oriented" method of instruction is inferior to a more "enhanced, refined, improved," etc etc etc curiculum. I do not. Its like learning to write poetry. You can study a few poems for specific lessons and after learning a few, then explain quite fluently all the concepts of a poem--and still not be able to write one. To write a poem, one must have developed the "ear"--and that is achieved by reading many poems, even if the lessons are redundant. I hold that the same is true for kenpo. Drill oriented redundancy with many variations is a great teaching tool if one is interested in true self defense.

    In fact, I like that phrase "drill oriented redundancy" so much I'm going to seize it as my own. I can't help it. Cops like that kind of talk. LOL

    Jim
    I agree.

    Thousands of repetitions on live humans is the only way to learn the "feel" of actually doing for real any technique.

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

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    Default Re: Lost techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by John M. La Tourrette View Post
    I agree.

    Thousands of repetitions on live humans is the only way to learn the "feel" of actually doing for real any technique.
    What I do disagree with is the dumbing down of good Waza just because you want something for the kiddies.

    Or taking the 700 Waza's and ending up with 120 instead.

    I'd get real bored. SO would most people.

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

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