Results 1 to 20 of 20

Thread: Sparring

  1. #1
    Kenpodave's Avatar
    Kenpodave is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Green Belt
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Shreveport, Louisiana, United States,
    Posts
    593
    Thanks
    227
    Thanked 399 Times in 198 Posts

    Default Sparring

    Although point sparring is a game with rules and not always relevant to self defense, there are several things a good kenpo man should work while competing, aside from winning...

    #1. The shots you land should all be solid, controlled shots that are capable of dropping the opponent. Kyoshi Greene's competitors in the midwest are well known for their body punch knockouts. In fact, Kyoshi does not allow his students to hit to the head during a match.

    #2. Even if his contact is light, it is still a hole in your defense. What if that light glancing blow was with a knife?

    #3. If you are good at YOUR art, then your sparring should look like YOUR art, not like the typical "reach out real fast and touch your opponent for a point" stuff. In other words, are you good enough to play YOUR game in competition? Because if the adrenaline rush in a game overwhelms you, where is YOUR kenpo gonna be when YOUR LIFE is on the line.

    In summary, walk out of the ring after your match without having been touched, and having dropped your opponent or knocked him out of the ring at least once. Whether you get the trophy or not, I'd call that a successful match for you.

    Thoughts?
    Dave

    "I consider that the spiritual life is the life of man's real self, the life of that interior self whose flame is so often allowed to be smothered under the ashes of anxiety and futile concern." - Thomas Merton


  2. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Kenpodave For This Useful Post:

    don bohrer (12-07-2007),MooseKenpo (05-06-2007),still nobody (12-08-2007)

  3. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    1,818
    Thanks
    984
    Thanked 337 Times in 234 Posts

    Default Re: Sparring

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpodave
    Although point sparring is a game... there are several things a good kenpo man should work while competing, aside from winning... The shots you land should all be solid, controlled shots that are capable of dropping the opponent... Even if his contact is light, it is still a hole in your defense. What if that light glancing blow was with a knife?... If you are good at YOUR art, then your sparring should look like YOUR art, not like the typical "reach out real fast and touch your opponent for a point" stuff. ...if the adrenaline rush in a game overwhelms you, where is YOUR kenpo gonna be when YOUR LIFE is on the line.

    In summary, walk out of the ring after your match without having been touched, and having dropped your opponent or knocked him out of the ring at least once. Whether you get the trophy or not, I'd call that a successful match ...
    You know, for a Tracy guy, you're pretty doggone smart! I used to work out with some competition TKD folks, and I learned a few practical things from them. Focus on the learning, not the winning! I usually got "disqualified", but I learned. Good post, good points!

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to thedan For This Useful Post:

    KenpoChanger (03-12-2008)

  5. #3
    Kenpodave's Avatar
    Kenpodave is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Green Belt
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Shreveport, Louisiana, United States,
    Posts
    593
    Thanks
    227
    Thanked 399 Times in 198 Posts

    Default Re: Sparring

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan
    You know, for a Tracy guy, you're pretty doggone smart! I used to work out with some competition TKD folks, and I learned a few practical things from them. Focus on the learning, not the winning! I usually got "disqualified", but I learned. Good post, good points!
    Thanks, but, the credit for this wisdom goes to Kyoshi Roger Greene. His wisdom, my paraphrase.
    Dave

    "I consider that the spiritual life is the life of man's real self, the life of that interior self whose flame is so often allowed to be smothered under the ashes of anxiety and futile concern." - Thomas Merton


  6. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    1,818
    Thanks
    984
    Thanked 337 Times in 234 Posts

    Default Re: Sparring

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpodave
    Thanks, but, the credit for this wisdom goes to Kyoshi Roger Greene. His wisdom, my paraphrase.
    Well, sir, I know how that goes! I'm basically a parrot myself- we all had to learn somewhere!

  7. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Elk Grove, CA
    Posts
    4,018
    Thanks
    1,163
    Thanked 913 Times in 561 Posts

    Default Re: Sparring

    You can't go wrong with not being hit and knocking the other guy out.

    No matter how you do it, those two things together make for a successful match.

    Excellent.

    --Amy
    The New Kenpo Continuum Book is now accepting submissions for volume 2. Our fabulous, ever-changing website is Sacramento Kenpo Karate.
    I'm a member of the Universal Life Church and the ULC Seminary. I'm also a Sacramento Wedding Minister and Disc Jockey
    New Cool (free) kenpo tool bar: http://KenpoKarate.OurToolbar.com/


  8. #6
    DaveSimmons's Avatar
    DaveSimmons is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. White Belt
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    St. Paul MN
    Posts
    27
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default Re: Sparring

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpodave
    Although point sparring is a game with rules and not always relevant to self defense, there are several things a good kenpo man should work while competing, aside from winning...

    #1. The shots you land should all be solid, controlled shots that are capable of dropping the opponent. Kyoshi Greene's competitors in the midwest are well known for their body punch knockouts. In fact, Kyoshi does not allow his students to hit to the head during a match.

    #2. Even if his contact is light, it is still a hole in your defense. What if that light glancing blow was with a knife?

    #3. If you are good at YOUR art, then your sparring should look like YOUR art, not like the typical "reach out real fast and touch your opponent for a point" stuff. In other words, are you good enough to play YOUR game in competition? Because if the adrenaline rush in a game overwhelms you, where is YOUR kenpo gonna be when YOUR LIFE is on the line.

    In summary, walk out of the ring after your match without having been touched, and having dropped your opponent or knocked him out of the ring at least once. Whether you get the trophy or not, I'd call that a successful match for you.

    Thoughts?

    Dave,

    Roger Greene's martial style reflects his philosphy based on real experience. In fact, his friends and "family" are cut from the same cloth! I am honored to be one of his friends and fellow warrior.
    Dave Simmons
    Twin Dragon Kenpo Karate
    http://www.mnkenpokarate.com
    651 230-0842

  9. #7
    Kenpodave's Avatar
    Kenpodave is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Green Belt
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Shreveport, Louisiana, United States,
    Posts
    593
    Thanks
    227
    Thanked 399 Times in 198 Posts

    Default Re: Sparring

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveSimmons
    Dave,

    Roger Greene's martial style reflects his philosphy based on real experience. In fact, his friends and "family" are cut from the same cloth! I am honored to be one of his friends and fellow warrior.
    True, and if the above were all I had learned from him, it would be enough. But he is not done with me yet!
    Dave

    "I consider that the spiritual life is the life of man's real self, the life of that interior self whose flame is so often allowed to be smothered under the ashes of anxiety and futile concern." - Thomas Merton


  10. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Real estate in 3 states
    Posts
    2,963
    Thanks
    1,852
    Thanked 1,160 Times in 817 Posts

    Default Re: Sparring

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpodave View Post
    In summary, walk out of the ring after your match without having been touched, and having dropped your opponent or knocked him out of the ring at least once. Whether you get the trophy or not, I'd call that a successful match for you.Thoughts?
    Well,
    I'd first want to know if you wanted to win or not when you went in.

    Then did you do what you wanted to do, but the referee just was blind, it does happen all the time.

    So what is the wanted outcome?

    Was it to drop the opponent, in a non-contact, or a light contact tournament?

    If so, why even go if you are not going to follow the same rules that your opponent was following?

    Just real curious.

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

  11. The Following User Says Thank You to John M. La Tourrette For This Useful Post:

    KenpoChanger (03-12-2008)

  12. #9
    Kenpodave's Avatar
    Kenpodave is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Green Belt
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Shreveport, Louisiana, United States,
    Posts
    593
    Thanks
    227
    Thanked 399 Times in 198 Posts

    Default Re: Sparring

    Quote Originally Posted by John M. La Tourrette View Post
    Well,
    I'd first want to know if you wanted to win or not when you went in.

    Then did you do what you wanted to do, but the referee just was blind, it does happen all the time.

    So what is the wanted outcome?

    Was it to drop the opponent, in a non-contact, or a light contact tournament?

    If so, why even go if you are not going to follow the same rules that your opponent was following?

    Just real curious.

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette
    The desired outcome, within the parameters of this one example, would be to completely dominate the opponent, within the rules of the engagement. This would not be the desire in a non-light contact tournament, at least not going in.
    Dave

    "I consider that the spiritual life is the life of man's real self, the life of that interior self whose flame is so often allowed to be smothered under the ashes of anxiety and futile concern." - Thomas Merton


  13. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Real estate in 3 states
    Posts
    2,963
    Thanks
    1,852
    Thanked 1,160 Times in 817 Posts

    Default Re: Sparring

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpodave View Post
    The desired outcome, within the parameters of this one example, would be to completely dominate the opponent, within the rules of the engagement. This would not be the desire in a non-light contact tournament, at least not going in.
    Duh.

    I went and re-read your original post.

    I mis-read it.

    Thank you.

    I agree with you 100%

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

  14. #11
    Kenpo Gary is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Purple Belt
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    207
    Thanks
    25
    Thanked 32 Times in 26 Posts

    Default Re: Sparring

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpodave View Post
    In fact, Kyoshi does not allow his students to hit to the head during a match.
    Do they at least allow fakes, or feints to the head? If not how do they set up for body shots?

    Kenpo Gary

  15. #12
    hh60gunner is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. White Belt
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    35
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked 11 Times in 6 Posts

    Default Re: Sparring

    One thing I've always hated about studios that don't allow hand contact to the head I learned while sparring against TKD students. When their students train that only their body is a point they tend to drop their guard from their face to only defend the body. Which in my opinion can create very bad habits. Even when I knew the rules at their studio it was always instinct to hit them in the head when they dropped their hands and I always found myself getting disqualified.

  16. The Following User Says Thank You to hh60gunner For This Useful Post:

    toejoe2k (03-04-2008)

  17. #13
    Kenpodave's Avatar
    Kenpodave is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Green Belt
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Shreveport, Louisiana, United States,
    Posts
    593
    Thanks
    227
    Thanked 399 Times in 198 Posts

    Default Re: Sparring

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpo Gary View Post
    Do they at least allow fakes, or feints to the head? If not how do they set up for body shots?

    Kenpo Gary
    Well, let me clarify...in tournaments, it is not allowed. They allow it during training classes, but not during competition. People get hurt.
    Dave

    "I consider that the spiritual life is the life of man's real self, the life of that interior self whose flame is so often allowed to be smothered under the ashes of anxiety and futile concern." - Thomas Merton


  18. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Real estate in 3 states
    Posts
    2,963
    Thanks
    1,852
    Thanked 1,160 Times in 817 Posts

    Default Re: Sparring

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpo Gary View Post
    Do they at least allow fakes, or feints to the head? If not how do they set up for body shots?

    Kenpo Gary
    Interesting.

    A distraction is a lead for them in the wrong direction...

    ...and it should be allowed in any type of sparring...

    ...if nothing than for the automatic reflexes their brains go though that throw them instantly into lag time.

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

  19. #15
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Real estate in 3 states
    Posts
    2,963
    Thanks
    1,852
    Thanked 1,160 Times in 817 Posts

    Default Re: Sparring

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpodave View Post
    Well, let me clarify...in tournaments, it is not allowed. They allow it during training classes, but not during competition. People get hurt.
    Whatever happened to the "control" factor?

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

  20. #16
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Real estate in 3 states
    Posts
    2,963
    Thanks
    1,852
    Thanked 1,160 Times in 817 Posts

    Default Re: Sparring

    Quote Originally Posted by hh60gunner View Post
    One thing I've always hated about studios that don't allow hand contact to the head I learned while sparring against TKD students. When their students train that only their body is a point they tend to drop their guard from their face to only defend the body. Which in my opinion can create very bad habits. Even when I knew the rules at their studio it was always instinct to hit them in the head when they dropped their hands and I always found myself getting disqualified.
    When you know what someone else does, and you are on their turf, and being a friend, what you do is "plan in advance" what moves you'll do to defeat them, using their rules.

    A simple thing to do.

    Notice then apply.

    That type of "strategic thinking" also give you more control, more strategies, and more that you can win with...

    ...because you are lengthening your line of knowledge and your awareness.

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

  21. #17
    Kenpodave's Avatar
    Kenpodave is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Green Belt
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Shreveport, Louisiana, United States,
    Posts
    593
    Thanks
    227
    Thanked 399 Times in 198 Posts

    Default Re: Sparring

    Quote Originally Posted by John M. La Tourrette View Post
    Whatever happened to the "control" factor?

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette
    Well, these guys win on a regular basis, often knocking their opponents unconscious without making any head contact.

    There are many types of control and I know what you are driving at, but it takes a good amount of control to stick to your game plan and follow your own rules in a contest such as this. Most sparring matches I see start out like karate, and very quickly devolve into "jump sideways and tap the other guy first," and technique is gone.

    Kyoshi Greene's guys look like they are doing the karate they were taught, and they win with it. And their goal, aside from victory, is the body shot knockout.
    Dave

    "I consider that the spiritual life is the life of man's real self, the life of that interior self whose flame is so often allowed to be smothered under the ashes of anxiety and futile concern." - Thomas Merton


  22. #18
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Real estate in 3 states
    Posts
    2,963
    Thanks
    1,852
    Thanked 1,160 Times in 817 Posts

    Default Re: Sparring

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpodave View Post
    Well, these guys win on a regular basis, often knocking their opponents unconscious without making any head contact.
    Dave I think you are purposefully missing my point.

    In a point tournament, knocking someone out intentionally with a body shot is as much against the "light contact rules" as is a full shot to the head.

    The only thing is, you can GET AWAY WITH a full shot to the body because of the lack of awareness of the judges.

    It still is not a CONTROLLED tactic, the type of tactic that should be adhered to if one is sparring in a light contact event.

    So my point about, "what ever happened to control" was not meant as a cut but as a criteria.

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

  23. #19
    Kenpodave's Avatar
    Kenpodave is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Green Belt
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Shreveport, Louisiana, United States,
    Posts
    593
    Thanks
    227
    Thanked 399 Times in 198 Posts

    Default Re: Sparring

    Quote Originally Posted by John M. La Tourrette View Post
    Dave I think you are purposefully missing my point.

    In a point tournament, knocking someone out intentionally with a body shot is as much against the "light contact rules" as is a full shot to the head.

    The only thing is, you can GET AWAY WITH a full shot to the body because of the lack of awareness of the judges.

    It still is not a CONTROLLED tactic, the type of tactic that should be adhered to if one is sparring in a light contact event.

    So my point about, "what ever happened to control" was not meant as a cut but as a criteria.

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette
    I see what you are saying. In the midwest, and here in Louisiana, tournaments are not necessarily light contact events. We often compete in events that list as part of the rules "full contact to the body, light to medium contact to the head."

    The problem is that those terms are relative. I had a student disqualified for throwing a step thru side kick that knocked an opponent out of the ring, for excessive contact. It was a full contact to the body event, and although he was knocked out of the ring, he was otherwise unphased by the kick because his balance was already leading him that direction. So, if full contact, light contact, etc., is a subjective criteria for the judge, then I believe that self imposed criteria established in an effort to protect one's opponent is a noble thing.

    Control is a criteria, but Kyoshi Greene is aware that if just one of those shots gets away from one of his guys when aiming for the head, then serious and possibly permanent damage can be done.

    The theory, as I see it, is that if the students can keep the mental faculties about them to adhere to Kyoshi's rule of no head contact in tournaments, even though they train with head contact in the dojo, and pull off accurate, body blow knockouts to moving, resisting opponents, then that skill is likely easily transferrable to the street, as is the ability to shift targeting to the head.
    Dave

    "I consider that the spiritual life is the life of man's real self, the life of that interior self whose flame is so often allowed to be smothered under the ashes of anxiety and futile concern." - Thomas Merton


  24. The Following User Says Thank You to Kenpodave For This Useful Post:

    John M. La Tourrette (03-11-2008)

  25. #20
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Real estate in 3 states
    Posts
    2,963
    Thanks
    1,852
    Thanked 1,160 Times in 817 Posts

    Default Re: Sparring

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpodave View Post
    The theory, as I see it, is that if the students can keep the mental faculties about them to adhere to Kyoshi's rule of no head contact in tournaments, even though they train with head contact in the dojo, and pull off accurate, body blow knockouts to moving, resisting opponents, then that skill is likely easily transferrable to the street, as is the ability to shift targeting to the head.
    I now understand.

    It seems like the better conditioning the combatants have the more likely they are to win.

    The more they can take a shot (stocky, well muscled, versus skinny, lanky) the more they can win.

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

  26. The Following User Says Thank You to John M. La Tourrette For This Useful Post:

    Kenpodave (03-12-2008)

Remove Ads

Sponsored Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Fighting vs. Sparring
    By amylong in forum Kenpo General
    Replies: 52
    Last Post: 08-09-2011, 09:31 PM
  2. Favorite Sparring Combinations
    By Medina Kenpo in forum Kenpo General
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 04-23-2007, 12:20 AM
  3. Sparring Class
    By jfarnsworth in forum Kenpo General
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 04-08-2006, 09:32 PM
  4. What to watch when sparring?
    By Kenpo-Sloth in forum Beginners Corner
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: 01-10-2006, 02:27 PM
  5. Sparring Videos?
    By amylong in forum General Discussion
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 12-01-2005, 02:13 PM