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Thread: Alot less Tracy's than Parker's Pro's & con's

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    Default Alot less Tracy's than Parker's Pro's & con's

    I am a newbie only been training for almost 2 years. But it sure seems that there are way way more Parker students than Tracy students.
    Has any one trained in Both? And what are the pro's and con's.
    I am a Tracy student. Just curious
    Please.......don't confuse my kindness for weakness.....

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    Default Re: Alot less Tracy's than Parker's Pro's & con's

    Quote Originally Posted by tiger63
    I am a newbie only been training for almost 2 years. But it sure seems that there are way way more Parker students than Tracy students.
    Has any one trained in Both? And what are the pro's and con's.
    I am a Tracy student. Just curious
    Several of us have done both.

    I did Tracy system for about two years between purple belt and almost green. I was fortunate to have an outstanding instructor. My basics improved ten-fold. That was the advantage for me. A hard-core instructor when I was in a position to have it.

    Now, it would be too much. There is a lot more to memorize, as far as techniques, but there aren't as many katas.

    I find the Parker system to be more fluid. The Tracy system looks more like hard style, which doesn't interest me as much.

    As I said though, I had an outstanding instructor who gave me just what I needed when I needed it, so I have no complaints either way.

    --Amy
    The New Kenpo Continuum Book is now accepting submissions for volume 2. Our fabulous, ever-changing website is Sacramento Kenpo Karate.
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    Default Re: Alot less Tracy's than Parker's Pro's & con's

    That is interesting. Thank you. I only have the one system from which to draw. My instructor does have a Parker flavor to some of our techniques though. I would hate to even think about starting over right now.
    I love it. I am sure as the rest of you it is quite the addiction.
    Please.......don't confuse my kindness for weakness.....

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    You wouldn't really be starting over as you would be gaining insight. Unless you are in it for belts then... I guess train where you are the most comfortable.

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    Default Re: Alot less Tracy's than Parker's Pro's & con's

    I likened the differences in the two systems to something like this.

    If you looked at the 2 systems as ways of making cookies.

    The Tracy's system would be like using pre-fabbed cookie dough. There are no surprises in what you are doing, the Tracy system has laid out every technique systematically, every option is already pre-examined for you through multiple variations of many of the techniques.

    The Parker system is like making the cookies from scratch. You have all your ingredients (basics), and as long as you follow the steps, and all the ingredients you can alter to recipe to fit your specific tatses. The Equation Formula allows the Parker student to explore each technique to fit what they are looking for.

    Each method works great, and for many people it comes down personal.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Alot less Tracy's than Parker's Pro's & con's

    Thank you....I have bee wondering quite a bit. I was wondering if I was missing something. I do have a great instructor. I just changed tracy schools because my new school offers bjj instruction 1 day a week. My other school did not believe the fight should go to the ground.
    I don't have the experience that many of you have so I do appreciate your comments and insight.
    Please.......don't confuse my kindness for weakness.....

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    Default Re: Alot less Tracy's than Parker's Pro's & con's

    Quote Originally Posted by tiger63
    That is interesting. Thank you. I only have the one system from which to draw. My instructor does have a Parker flavor to some of our techniques though. I would hate to even think about starting over right now.


    You won't be starting over. Many of the moves are the same. Just a little different way of doing them. It's easier to go from Tracy to Parker than the other way around.

    --Amy
    The New Kenpo Continuum Book is now accepting submissions for volume 2. Our fabulous, ever-changing website is Sacramento Kenpo Karate.
    I'm a member of the Universal Life Church and the ULC Seminary. I'm also a Sacramento Wedding Minister and Disc Jockey
    New Cool (free) kenpo tool bar: http://KenpoKarate.OurToolbar.com/


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    Default Re: Alot less Tracy's than Parker's Pro's & con's

    Quote Originally Posted by tiger63
    Thank you....I have bee wondering quite a bit. I was wondering if I was missing something. I do have a great instructor. I just changed tracy schools because my new school offers bjj instruction 1 day a week. My other school did not believe the fight should go to the ground.
    I don't have the experience that many of you have so I do appreciate your comments and insight.
    The fight should not go to the ground...if you can help it...but...since Kenpo is about "what if's" you better be prepared to go there if necessary.
    In short..ground fighting should be included in your training since in order to be properly prepared...you need to train for any possibility. IMHO =)

    BTW, our organizations lineage comes from Jay T. Will who apparently, from what I've learned, is a mix of Parker and Tracy...and over time we've even added more stuff! Kenpo is Kenpo though, at least to me, which is about using what works and dumping the rest. I've learned a lot on these forums and I'm sure you will too...and perhaps teach us some new things and fresh perspectives as well.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Alot less Tracy's than Parker's Pro's & con's

    Interesting Amy mentions the Tracy system being "harder", since the Tracy's trained with Parker WAY back in the day it would make sense that it is more rigid or direct- (Is that what you mean Amy?) since Parker trained with Professor Chow in the early days when his style was more rigid or direct.

    The same could be said about Goshinjitsu Kai or the Chow/Chun system, it seems more rigid than the current Kara-Ho Kempo and reflects Professor Chow during different time periods-

    The Tracy's are from the 60's or so yes?

    Have a great night all!
    James
    The above is just my opinion.

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    Default Re: Alot less Tracy's than Parker's Pro's & con's

    You know.....I have been mulling over this for quite sometime. Could'nt really find any real input that was unbiased. I appreciate the input, it's makes me feel better about my recent school change.
    When you relatively new to the martial arts... you just don't know. I am really enjoying my new school because he definately blends some of the techniques from his parker background that they make more sense and come off more smooth and powerful.

    Thank you all
    Please.......don't confuse my kindness for weakness.....

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    Default Re: Alot less Tracy's than Parker's Pro's & con's

    Quote Originally Posted by tiger63
    You know.....I have been mulling over this for quite sometime. Could'nt really find any real input that was unbiased. I appreciate the input, it's makes me feel better about my recent school change.
    When you relatively new to the martial arts... you just don't know. I am really enjoying my new school because he definately blends some of the techniques from his parker background that they make more sense and come off more smooth and powerful.

    Thank you all
    It helps when what you're doing "makes sense!"
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Alot less Tracy's than Parker's Pro's & con's

    Quote Originally Posted by Dianhsuhe
    Interesting Amy mentions the Tracy system being "harder", since the Tracy's trained with Parker WAY back in the day it would make sense that it is more rigid or direct- (Is that what you mean Amy?) since Parker trained with Professor Chow in the early days when his style was more rigid or direct.

    The Tracy's are from the 60's or so yes?

    Have a great night all!
    James
    Hi James,

    Yes, that's what I mean. In the 60's, everybody's art was more rigid. Not just kenpo. The Tracy system prides itself on not having changed from the original teachings. The Parker system prides itself on exactly the opposite.

    --Amy
    The New Kenpo Continuum Book is now accepting submissions for volume 2. Our fabulous, ever-changing website is Sacramento Kenpo Karate.
    I'm a member of the Universal Life Church and the ULC Seminary. I'm also a Sacramento Wedding Minister and Disc Jockey
    New Cool (free) kenpo tool bar: http://KenpoKarate.OurToolbar.com/


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    Default Re: Alot less Tracy's than Parker's Pro's & con's

    I thought so Amy- The same differences can be seen between Kara-Ho Kempo of the 70's and 80's vs the 50's and 60's

    Good stuff all around!

    Have a great night-
    The above is just my opinion.

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    Default Re: Alot less Tracy's than Parker's Pro's & con's

    Quote Originally Posted by amylong
    Hi James,

    Yes, that's what I mean. In the 60's, everybody's art was more rigid. Not just kenpo. The Tracy system prides itself on not having changed from the original teachings. The Parker system prides itself on exactly the opposite.

    --Amy
    Actually the Tracy System has always been adaptable to the individual. I have been a student/teacher in Tracy's since 1966. I have friends in EPAK such as Professor John Sepulveda he moves different than most EPAK folks more like my era. We do teach ground fighting but we advocate not staying on the ground.

    Tracy System is not archiac by any means
    Dave Simmons
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    Default Re: Alot less Tracy's than Parker's Pro's & con's

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveSimmons
    We do teach ground fighting but we advocate not staying on the ground.
    ..as any effective form of self defense would.

    IMHO =)
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Alot less Tracy's than Parker's Pro's & con's

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveSimmons
    Actually the Tracy System has always been adaptable to the individual. I have been a student/teacher in Tracy's since 1966. I have friends in EPAK such as Professor John Sepulveda he moves different than most EPAK folks more like my era. We do teach ground fighting but we advocate not staying on the ground.

    Tracy System is not archiac by any means
    Hi. I used to go to a Tracy school called Twin Dragons and there was a guy named Dave who ran it. Funny.

    Anyhoo, all the Tracy system info that I've seen and experienced have prided themselves on using the exact same material as the original. I didn't say archaic. I trained with Grandmaster Ray Arquilla and he's amazing. I learned more from him than anyone else. He helped form all my basics, which everything springs from. It wasn't an insult. I learned ground fighting from him too.

    I'm just saying that that's what all the Tracy schools I've seen pride themselves on -- staying with the original curriculum in the way it was originally taught. I was also taught to make it work. I was told that if it doesn't work for me, then I'm probably not doing it right.

    --Amy
    The New Kenpo Continuum Book is now accepting submissions for volume 2. Our fabulous, ever-changing website is Sacramento Kenpo Karate.
    I'm a member of the Universal Life Church and the ULC Seminary. I'm also a Sacramento Wedding Minister and Disc Jockey
    New Cool (free) kenpo tool bar: http://KenpoKarate.OurToolbar.com/


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    Default Re: Alot less Tracy's than Parker's Pro's & con's

    Quote Originally Posted by amylong
    ...
    I'm just saying that that's what all the Tracy schools I've seen pride themselves on -- staying with the original curriculum in the way it was originally taught. I was also taught to make it work. I was told that if it doesn't work for me, then I'm probably not doing it right.

    --Amy
    Not all Tracy people keep to the original curriculum... For better or worse, there are a large number of people out here who go off in different directions.

    Interestingly, if you go to "strict" Tracy schools, here in Missouri, most particularly in St. Louis, and depending on when the head instructor struck out on his own, you will see several different versions of the original curriculum.

    The last part of your post, about making it work, is one of the reasons that Tracy Karaté is pretty cool. Different techniques, in practical application, for different people. It is, silly, however, to think that one person can make every technique work exactly as advertised. Way too many variables for that to be a realistic expectation. Most of the techniques in any system of martial arts will depend on many variables such as build, size and experience of the attacker, same for the defender (a 5'4" attacker probably can not put a really great bear hug on a 6'2 260 pound defender).

    Then, there are the variables of your surroundings, your shoes, your jeans being too tight, your mental state (are you outraged and murderous at the onslaught of the attacker, or frightened? (Is it your drunk Uncle Fred, or 3 assailants with knives? Is it drunken revelry out of hand, or a purse snatch, rape? How desperate is your defense requirement).

    Are you temporarily disabled? Did you get a sprained ankle in the initial assault? You arm broken? Your three or four front teeth knocked out in the surprise onslaught?

    I think that you can make a technique work within the confines of belt testing, but if you have to strain to make it work, then in all probability, it won't work for you in real life.

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    Default Re: Alot less Tracy's than Parker's Pro's & con's

    Great points Sigung86.

    Hope life is treating you well.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Alot less Tracy's than Parker's Pro's & con's

    Tailoring
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    Default Re: Alot less Tracy's than Parker's Pro's & con's

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler
    BTW, our organizations lineage comes from Jay T. Will who apparently, from what I've learned, is a mix of Parker and Tracy...and over time we've even added more stuff! Kenpo is Kenpo though, at least to me, which is about using what works and dumping the rest.
    I agree 100% about learning and using what works.


    I think everybody over time will add to their own personal system, and when they start to teach, it makes sense to pass this knowledge own to your students.


    I also have added to my personal system over the years. My Kenpo lineage comes from Grandmaster McSweeney, Tracy's, the EKKS, informally from the IKCA (Sullivan and LeRoux) and various Parker trained students.


    Yes, the old EKKS's lineage from Jay T Will was interesting.

    Master Jay T. Will was promoted to 7th degree Black Belt by Grandmaster Parker, and promoted to 8th degree Black Belt by Grandmaster Al Tracy.

    I asked Master Berry about how he learned Kenpo from Master Will, and he said he learned both the Tracy's and Parker Systems complete from Master Will. Master Will would inform the students from what system he was teaching at any given time and Master Berry was with him long enough to learn them both. Master Berry taught it in the manner he thought would work best for his students, which was a blend of Parker and Tracy's, with his own additions.

    Both Master's Will and Berry added their own things to what they taught. As do I, and I am sure all of you.

    To me it is all Kenpo. Parker, Tracy's, McSweeney and etc, in the end, it is all Kenpo.

    Jeff

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