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Thread: An impressive demo

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    Default An impressive demo

    This demonstration is from 2010, so I am sure most of you have seen it. I think it is an impressive demo. I often see Kenpo demos done as quickly as possible which often ends up looking sloppy. Or a technique will be shown once and everything else will be 30 minutes of talk about 3-4 moves done in the technique.

    I think this video demonstrates how proper control and form should be applied. I think this guys moves are very crisp and clean. What do you guys think?
    [demo starts at about 1:45]
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    Default Re: An impressive demo

    Quote Originally Posted by Oscar Villasenor View Post
    This demonstration is from 2010, so I am sure most of you have seen it. I think it is an impressive demo. I often see Kenpo demos done as quickly as possible which often ends up looking sloppy. Or a technique will be shown once and everything else will be 30 minutes of talk about 3-4 moves done in the technique.

    I think this video demonstrates how proper control and form should be applied. I think this guys moves are very crisp and clean. What do you guys think?
    [demo starts at about 1:45]
    While I appreciate the fact that they are taking each move individually at a speed that people can see what is going on and understand. I think that if you are going to do that you have to take incredible care to get each movement not only exact but hands and feet must be in sync.

    As this is a live demo, not a tape where they could do take after take, I can excuse some of the minor foot angle issues. However, on a number of occasions I am seeing feet out of sync with the upper body.. overly exaggerated and reaching defenses, and a lack of grounding in his stances. All of that said, it's the Uke that is driving me nuts.... if you are supposed to punch someone in the face... don't put your fist over their opposing shoulder... even if it is slow... punch them in the face.. put your fist through their face and where it would come out of the back of their head! If they get hit... it's their fault.

    It hurts my sensibilities.

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    Default Re: An impressive demo

    I think I wonder how it would be if the other guy executed something
    resembling a realistic attack. His punches are stopping almost a foot away from
    any target.
    And the uniform is silly....
    "To be, rather than to seem"

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    Default Re: An impressive demo

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkC View Post
    And the uniform is silly....
    I have seen a few guys on the Tracy line with that uniform. The Gi top is very unique. It's like it's cutoff. I haven't seen it elsewhere. I wonder what the origin of that is.
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    Default Re: An impressive demo

    Quote Originally Posted by Oscar Villasenor View Post
    I have seen a few guys on the Tracy line with that uniform. The Gi top is very unique. It's like it's cutoff. I haven't seen it elsewhere. I wonder what the origin of that is.
    Shrug... I've seen all kinds of Gi... even a gold shiny one... I don't care one way or another what your wearing...
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    Default Re: An impressive demo

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBunny View Post
    While I appreciate the fact that they are taking each move individually at a speed that people can see what is going on and understand. I think that if you are going to do that you have to take incredible care to get each movement not only exact but hands and feet must be in sync.

    As this is a live demo, not a tape where they could do take after take, I can excuse some of the minor foot angle issues. However, on a number of occasions I am seeing feet out of sync with the upper body.. overly exaggerated and reaching defenses, and a lack of grounding in his stances. All of that said, it's the Uke that is driving me nuts.... if you are supposed to punch someone in the face... don't put your fist over their opposing shoulder... even if it is slow... punch them in the face.. put your fist through their face and where it would come out of the back of their head! If they get hit... it's their fault.

    It hurts my sensibilities.

    The Bunny
    I agree, and also with Mark C's comment. I always start at the beginning with realistic attacks. If you look at the video, it appears to me that the "attacker" is going through great lengths to withhold his left punching hand from all the attacks, as if it doesn't exist in the equation. This is obvious because the defender does little to nothing to control the width of the attacker or check his actions. Throwing a single punch, and stopping while holding your other hand out to the side doesn't really say much for the execution of attacker, or the defense technique.

    Also and more subtle, is something Mr. Parker in-part created the Web of Knowledge specifically for. To insure "attack scenarios" created for consideration did not fall into a false pattern. Mr. Parker noticed that in previous training and in other styles like San Soo of the day, the bulk of the punch attacks were all singularly right-handed, and with little to no multiple punch attack techniques.

    Addressing the "over-kill" comment in "kenpo" is ignoring the reality of the circumstances even more. He speaks about "reality" while doing anything but. Teaching people to just keep moving if a defense doesn't work is beyond silly. Some have suggested it's not "over-kill," but "over skill." That doesn't fly either because if you need 15 moves to drop a guy who is ONLY throwing one punch, I would suggest you are "under-skilled." Using false logic to justify a major flaw in philosophy to protect the identity of what you do, is no less worse than TKD finding an excuse to always kick.
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    Default Re: An impressive demo

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    I agree, and also with Mark C's comment. I always start at the beginning with realistic attacks. If you look at the video, it appears to me that the "attacker" is going through great lengths to withhold his left punching hand from all the attacks, as if it doesn't exist in the equation. This is obvious because the defender does little to nothing to control the width of the attacker or check his actions. Throwing a single punch, and stopping while holding your other hand out to the side doesn't really say much for the execution of attacker, or the defense technique.

    Also and more subtle, is something Mr. Parker in-part created the Web of Knowledge specifically for. To insure "attack scenarios" created for consideration did not fall into a false pattern. Mr. Parker noticed that in previous training and in other styles like San Soo of the day, the bulk of the punch attacks were all singularly right-handed, and with little to no multiple punch attack techniques.

    Addressing the "over-kill" comment in "kenpo" is ignoring the reality of the circumstances even more. He speaks about "reality" while doing anything but. Teaching people to just keep moving if a defense doesn't work is beyond silly. Some have suggested it's not "over-kill," but "over skill." That doesn't fly either because if you need 15 moves to drop a guy who is ONLY throwing one punch, I would suggest you are "under-skilled." Using false logic to justify a major flaw in philosophy to protect the identity of what you do, is no less worse than TKD finding an excuse to always kick.



    While I agree with the notion that attacks should be realistic, I suspect that we don't all share the same opinion on what realistic attacks means. I think of a realistic attack as one that will injure me if I do not successfully deal with it. Ideally if I am making a video I want my attacker to be a skilled fighter who will throw a realistic, aggressive attack and if given the opportunity to attack me a second time at any point in the sequence they should do so. In other words not only should the initial attack be realistic but the entire transaction should be against a fully resisting, aggressive and skilled attacker. Now I do not really need this to learn from a demonstration of a technique because I can already see many, not all but many of the possible things that can go wrong or risks associated with using a particular showcased technique but it would help with the critics, particularly when you feel that what you are doing or showing is functional. When your attacker is throwing one move and is being given ample time to break your face you look open and it does call into question your so called functional ability. So in that sense I agree with those critical of unrealistic attacks. As far as the over-kill comment goes I pose this question and I made it easy... multiple choice lol

    So in the event that you execute a single move and your attacker keeps fighting back you should?

    A. Scream "Time-Out I need to go perfect my single move so that it gets the job done right next time!"

    B. Continue to fight for your life.
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    Default Re: An impressive demo

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenposoldier01 View Post
    While I agree with the notion that attacks should be realistic, I suspect that we don't all share the same opinion on what realistic attacks means. I think of a realistic attack as one that will injure me if I do not successfully deal with it. Ideally if I am making a video I want my attacker to be a skilled fighter who will throw a realistic, aggressive attack and if given the opportunity to attack me a second time at any point in the sequence they should do so. In other words not only should the initial attack be realistic but the entire transaction should be against a fully resisting, aggressive and skilled attacker. Now I do not really need this to learn from a demonstration of a technique because I can already see many, not all but many of the possible things that can go wrong or risks associated with using a particular showcased technique but it would help with the critics, particularly when you feel that what you are doing or showing is functional. When your attacker is throwing one move and is being given ample time to break your face you look open and it does call into question your so called functional ability. So in that sense I agree with those critical of unrealistic attacks. As far as the over-kill comment goes I pose this question and I made it easy... multiple choice lol

    So in the event that you execute a single move and your attacker keeps fighting back you should?

    A. Scream "Time-Out I need to go perfect my single move so that it gets the job done right next time!"

    B. Continue to fight for your life.

    C- Rely on your Spork Fu training and shove a spork in his eye.

    Fights over.

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    Default Re: An impressive demo

    I've seen the smaller jacket and tapered pants in Tracy's before. You pretty much have to have a seamstress cut away at a jacket, and taper the legs of the pants. If you are athletic, without the "kenpo belly" - it can look sharp in person.
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    Default Re: An impressive demo

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBunny View Post
    However, on a number of occasions I am seeing feet out of sync with the upper body.. overly exaggerated and reaching defenses, and a lack of grounding in his stances.
    I think a lot of the attacks were from too far away, which can cause a lot of that but overall, I thought his footwork, strength, and movements to be well balanced. Especially the throws, which were pretty effortless, and you can't do that with bad footwork.

    Can you point out some instances in the time line where you thought the feet were out of sync or he lacked grounding in his stances?
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    Default Re: An impressive demo

    I think it looks like a waiter's uniform at an Argentine restaurant or something...
    "To be, rather than to seem"

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    Default Re: An impressive demo

    Quote Originally Posted by Oscar Villasenor View Post
    This demonstration is from 2010, so I am sure most of you have seen it. I think it is an impressive demo. I often see Kenpo demos done as quickly as possible which often ends up looking sloppy. Or a technique will be shown once and everything else will be 30 minutes of talk about 3-4 moves done in the technique.

    I think this video demonstrates how proper control and form should be applied. I think this guys moves are very crisp and clean. What do you guys think?
    [demo starts at about 1:45]
    I think for a presentation, in front of a crowd, it was pretty good, other than the attacker being too far out of range, and maybe they did that so people could see better, I don't know.
    The presenter had precision in many of his strikes, you could see that by the uke's reaction to the light elbow pops that occurred a few times, plus the throws looked crisp and fairly effortless, requiring good footwork beforehand to make it happen.
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    Default Re: An impressive demo

    Quote Originally Posted by J-squared View Post
    I think for a presentation, in front of a crowd, it was pretty good, other than the attacker being too far out of range, and maybe they did that so people could see better, I don't know.
    The presenter had precision in many of his strikes, you could see that by the uke's reaction to the light elbow pops that occurred a few times, plus the throws looked crisp and fairly effortless, requiring good footwork beforehand to make it happen.
    I thought he looked a little stiff. Maybe it was the crowd.
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    Default Re: An impressive demo

    Quote Originally Posted by J-squared View Post
    I think a lot of the attacks were from too far away, which can cause a lot of that but overall, I thought his footwork, strength, and movements to be well balanced. Especially the throws, which were pretty effortless, and you can't do that with bad footwork.

    Can you point out some instances in the time line where you thought the feet were out of sync or he lacked grounding in his stances?
    Sure, gimi a bit... and for the record, with an accommodating Uke, you can certainly do throws with terrible footwork.

    I'll get time stamps, I'm at work so it might take a bit.

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    Default Re: An impressive demo

    Quote Originally Posted by J-squared View Post
    I think a lot of the attacks were from too far away, which can cause a lot of that but overall, I thought his footwork, strength, and movements to be well balanced. Especially the throws, which were pretty effortless, and you can't do that with bad footwork.

    Can you point out some instances in the time line where you thought the feet were out of sync or he lacked grounding in his stances?
    Lack of grounding..
    lets start at 1:50 initial block there was no effort at all to settle his base,

    2:22 steps a good full beat before the strike

    4:02 next to no transitions in footwork for Thundering hammers

    4:39 his Imote yaku aka Kotegaeshi is being forced instead of following his footwork with his hips.

    Just a few I saw with a cursory viewing

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    Default Re: An impressive demo

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBunny View Post
    Lack of grounding..
    lets start at 1:50 initial block there was no effort at all to settle his base,
    I'm not sure what this means

    2:22 steps a good full beat before the strike
    Indeed. He was talking to the audience then too. I have no idea if would do the same thing in real practice.

    4:02 next to no transitions in footwork for Thundering hammers
    Looks like he amalgamated Thundering Hammers and Dance of Death there. I don't mind the footwork portion on the Thundering Hammers so much, as much as the perceived lack of power in the hammer strikes from not using more of the whole body in them. I wonder if that's what he intended to do, or if he just transitioned into it because of how the uke reacted.

    4:39 his Imote yaku aka Kotegaeshi is being forced instead of following his footwork with his hips.
    Yeah, it did look a bit stiff and forced. I don't like that technique very much, besides the official version shown, we have a modified version we practice also.

    Thanks for taking the time to reply.
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    Default Re: An impressive demo

    Quote Originally Posted by J-squared View Post
    I'm not sure what this means



    Indeed. He was talking to the audience then too. I have no idea if would do the same thing in real practice.



    Looks like he amalgamated Thundering Hammers and Dance of Death there. I don't mind the footwork portion on the Thundering Hammers so much, as much as the perceived lack of power in the hammer strikes from not using more of the whole body in them. I wonder if that's what he intended to do, or if he just transitioned into it because of how the uke reacted.



    Yeah, it did look a bit stiff and forced. I don't like that technique very much, besides the official version shown, we have a modified version we practice also.

    Thanks for taking the time to reply.
    The grounding... yea.. unfortunately this is one of those things that I find really difficult to explain in text. People have different terminology, and it's one of those things that really needs to be shown. Settling his base, dropping his stance, grounding, sinking... all in all it results in lowering your center of gravity for greater control and stability.

    Talking.. yes, he was... and that certainly could have been why, as i said in my first response I can forgive some of the things due to the live scenario. That said, when you are going to make the choice to show every detail of a technique at that speed you must be perfect. The problems I see might very well be an issue with blocking (theatrical blocking not martial arts blocking) not everyone understands the importants of performance design in a demo. The technique should be shown at the chosen speed and then if a discussion is wished revisit the portion of the technique, but not in the middle of the initial showing.

    Even if you are going mash Thundering hammer and dance.. which I have no problem with at all... you have to be very keen on precise footwork.. particularly with those techniques.

    The Imote Yaku... honestly, I have met few Kenpoists who are good with manipulations without cross training... but if you are going to show it.. you better know what you're doing.

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    Default Re: An impressive demo

    Coming from the Tracy Lineage, I HATE that cutoff top. HATE IT!!! It's SO stupid looking, it borders on absurdity.

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    Default Re: An impressive demo

    Quote Originally Posted by Oscar Villasenor View Post
    I have seen a few guys on the Tracy line with that uniform. The Gi top is very unique. It's like it's cutoff. I haven't seen it elsewhere. I wonder what the origin of that is.
    The origin of the cutoff gi...

    Century used to manufacture a tournament go top that was waist length. By not being tucked in to the belt, there was more freedom of movement t and less time spent re-tucking.

    When they stopped making it, Steve Finn began cutting regular heavy weight tops, and his students of course, followed suit.

    They were cut offs, and would fray at the bottom like cutoff jean shorts. And get shorter over time as they were washed.

    When I bought my first gi and cut it off, one of my students, Kathy Nelson, offered to fix it for me by seaming it. Fairly quickly, she began doing that for everyone and it became the norm in Lexington.

    As with everything, reasons began to pop up as to how and why the shortened top is more practical or more realistic than the traditional top.

    The tapered pants were born from a hatred of bell bottoms.

    The entire uniform more closely resembles a jeans/t-shirt/belt/jacket that someone would actually wear versus the traditional uniform resembling bell bottoms and a parka that is tucked to your belt.

    People tend to like it or hate it, but rarely forget it. It is most often compared to a waiter's jacket. We also wear checkered gis and more recently, checkered pants.

    I have a cut off checkered gi, and was informed by a higher ranking Tracy's guy that my look was "untraditional."

    I thought that was funny.

    Oddly, After Six offers a waiter's tuxedo, black, waist length, called a Tracy's. I wore it at my wedding, because, you know, I just had to.
    Dave

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