Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 96

Thread: forms and motion

  1. #1
    Jim Hanna is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Purple Belt
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    226
    Thanks
    11
    Thanked 179 Times in 95 Posts

    Default forms and motion

    I am curious as to how many Tracy practitioners train their numbered forms (e.g. 4) from a motion perspective. I see and have commented upon some defects in the numbered forms (from my tactical perspective). However, it is my understanding that everything makes sense in these forms if viewed as a study of motion and catagory completion. Hence, there are no defects.

    But I've also heard Tracy practitioners say that the 4 form is the masterpiece of kenpo. If there's one form to perfect, its the 4 form. But that only makes sense to me if it is studied, not as self defense, but as motion.

    Let me point out that some other respected kenpo practitioners do not (if I have inferred correctly) regard #4 with such esteem, notably Doc Chap'el and Chuck Sullivan. A shodan can be obtained in both schools without having learned #4. If I have inferred correctly, then it must not be the "one form" that many make it out to be.

    While I'm on a roll, here's another of my thoughts. If I were placed on an island world and I could only pass kenpo on through one kata, I would not choose 4. I would choose the Twin Set. Its the only form that works rolling and falling, ground work, and then safely rising. I don't know who created it, but its originator is not given enough credit.

    Salute,
    Jim

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Sarnia, ON, Canada
    Posts
    7,774
    Thanks
    301
    Thanked 1,263 Times in 801 Posts

    Default Re: forms and motion

    In reality Shodan or 1st Black is where you really start to learn. Chuck Sullivan's program does not have any of Parker's material in it. They have a basic form for Orange Belt, and one other form called the Master Form which keeps growing until the student has all 55 techniques in one form.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

  3. #3
    Jim Hanna is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Purple Belt
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    226
    Thanks
    11
    Thanked 179 Times in 95 Posts

    Default Re: forms and motion

    Yep. But the question is why, if 4 is the "one form", did Mr Sullivan not choose to incorporate it into his program? Also, although you're right concerning Shodan, remember, at one time, there was pretty much only shodan, i.e. a black belt was a black belt, no matter the grade. You will hear the seniors say that sometimes.

    How can anyone not teach the #4 form? And one final question, does anyone know if Mr Mills still teaches and requires it for black belt in his version of kenpo?

    Salute,
    Jim

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Sarnia, ON, Canada
    Posts
    7,774
    Thanks
    301
    Thanked 1,263 Times in 801 Posts

    Default Re: forms and motion

    Mr. Sullivan and Mr. LeRoux completely built their program from the ground up. They wanted to make an entirely different program, based upon what they had learned but not using existing material.

    As for the rest of your questions I hope someone else has the answers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Hanna
    Yep. But the question is why, if 4 is the "one form", did Mr Sullivan not choose to incorporate it into his program? Also, although you're right concerning Shodan, remember, at one time, there was pretty much only shodan, i.e. a black belt was a black belt, no matter the grade. You will hear the seniors say that sometimes.

    How can anyone not teach the #4 form? And one final question, does anyone know if Mr Mills still teaches and requires it for black belt in his version of kenpo?

    Salute,
    Jim
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

  5. #5
    DaveSimmons's Avatar
    DaveSimmons is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. White Belt
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    St. Paul MN
    Posts
    27
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default Re: forms and motion

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Hanna
    I am curious as to how many Tracy practitioners train their numbered forms (e.g. 4) from a motion perspective. I see and have commented upon some defects in the numbered forms (from my tactical perspective). However, it is my understanding that everything makes sense in these forms if viewed as a study of motion and catagory completion. Hence, there are no defects.

    But I've also heard Tracy practitioners say that the 4 form is the masterpiece of kenpo. If there's one form to perfect, its the 4 form. But that only makes sense to me if it is studied, not as self defense, but as motion.

    Let me point out that some other respected kenpo practitioners do not (if I have inferred correctly) regard #4 with such esteem, notably Doc Chap'el and Chuck Sullivan. A shodan can be obtained in both schools without having learned #4. If I have inferred correctly, then it must not be the "one form" that many make it out to be.

    While I'm on a roll, here's another of my thoughts. If I were placed on an island world and I could only pass kenpo on through one kata, I would not choose 4. I would choose the Twin Set. Its the only form that works rolling and falling, ground work, and then safely rising. I don't know who created it, but its originator is not given enough credit.

    Salute,
    Jim

    Personally, I do not think Kenpo Karate revolves around our numbered forms or acquired forms. It is about combat, health and perspective. One on one or multiple opponent practice will teach all lessons. I do not teach all the forms...why? They are contrived to teach a lesson that can be learned through day to day combatives.

    Dave Simmons

  6. #6
    Jim Hanna is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Purple Belt
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    226
    Thanks
    11
    Thanked 179 Times in 95 Posts

    Default Re: forms and motion

    Mr Simmons,

    You and I are on the same page, I think. But, then again, I think that is because we approach our study of kenpo from similiar if not identical perspectives.

    Salute,
    Jim

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Sarnia, ON, Canada
    Posts
    7,774
    Thanks
    301
    Thanked 1,263 Times in 801 Posts

    Default Re: forms and motion

    Forms are and were designed for solo practice. Older Forms like Tiger & Crane have many motion keys.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

  8. #8
    Jim Hanna is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Purple Belt
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    226
    Thanks
    11
    Thanked 179 Times in 95 Posts

    Default Re: forms and motion

    Forms are indeed mostly designed for solo work, but of course there are exceptions, e.g. the two person set , as well as some other matching sets in the Chinese systems.

    The two person set is more than merely matching move for move. Look at the last move of the second man, ie whats looks to be a U punch. It actually aligns the body better, i.e. strip out the left hand and stretch the kick and turn it. Then do the same thing while moving the left hand into the overhand position and you will see its value, even though its not touching anything.

    In regards to what forms like Tiger and Crane teach, its more than motion. Dr Sumner and Dave Hopper have written about it on Dr Sumner's site.

    Salute,
    Jim

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    SpoVaWA
    Posts
    4,387
    Thanks
    1,765
    Thanked 1,792 Times in 1,309 Posts

    Default Re: forms and motion

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad
    In reality Shodan or 1st Black is where you really start to learn. Chuck Sullivan's program does not have any of Parker's material in it. They have a basic form for Orange Belt, and one other form called the Master Form which keeps growing until the student has all 55 techniques in one form.
    Hopefully you start really learning the day you join, or you are in the wrong school.
    Sean

  10. #10
    Kenpodave's Avatar
    Kenpodave is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Green Belt
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Shreveport, Louisiana, United States,
    Posts
    593
    Thanks
    227
    Thanked 396 Times in 197 Posts

    Default Re: forms and motion

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad
    Forms are and were designed for solo practice. Older Forms like Tiger & Crane have many motion keys.
    Well, except for Two Man Set
    Dave

    "I consider that the spiritual life is the life of man's real self, the life of that interior self whose flame is so often allowed to be smothered under the ashes of anxiety and futile concern." - Thomas Merton


  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Sarnia, ON, Canada
    Posts
    7,774
    Thanks
    301
    Thanked 1,263 Times in 801 Posts

    Default Re: forms and motion

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpodave
    Well, except for Two Man Set
    I have been waiting for someone to say something along those lines. And you are correct, although a person can practice either side by themselves.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

  12. #12
    Kenpodave's Avatar
    Kenpodave is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Green Belt
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Shreveport, Louisiana, United States,
    Posts
    593
    Thanks
    227
    Thanked 396 Times in 197 Posts

    Default Re: forms and motion

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad
    I have been waiting for someone to say something along those lines. And you are correct, although a person can practice either side by themselves.
    I don't have the book with me, but I seem to recall Mitose saying something about forms being practiced as two man exercises, and along those lines, GM Ray Arquilla has developed several two man forms for his curriculum.

    I'm not there yet, and perhaps will never be possessed of that sort of creativity, but I love working the two man set and the ippon kumite combinations from my okinawan days were great fun.
    Dave

    "I consider that the spiritual life is the life of man's real self, the life of that interior self whose flame is so often allowed to be smothered under the ashes of anxiety and futile concern." - Thomas Merton


  13. #13
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    London, ON
    Posts
    1,601
    Thanks
    64
    Thanked 209 Times in 134 Posts

    Default Re: forms and motion

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Hanna
    I am curious as to how many Tracy practitioners train their numbered forms (e.g. 4) from a motion perspective. I see and have commented upon some defects in the numbered forms (from my tactical perspective). However, it is my understanding that everything makes sense in these forms if viewed as a study of motion and catagory completion. Hence, there are no defects.

    But I've also heard Tracy practitioners say that the 4 form is the masterpiece of kenpo. If there's one form to perfect, its the 4 form. But that only makes sense to me if it is studied, not as self defense, but as motion.

    Let me point out that some other respected kenpo practitioners do not (if I have inferred correctly) regard #4 with such esteem, notably Doc Chap'el and Chuck Sullivan. A shodan can be obtained in both schools without having learned #4. If I have inferred correctly, then it must not be the "one form" that many make it out to be.

    While I'm on a roll, here's another of my thoughts. If I were placed on an island world and I could only pass kenpo on through one kata, I would not choose 4. I would choose the Twin Set. Its the only form that works rolling and falling, ground work, and then safely rising. I don't know who created it, but its originator is not given enough credit.

    Salute,
    Jim
    I don't view the forms as merely studies of motion and categories of completion, but I know a lot do.

    I'm not a Tracy black belt so I don't know Twin Set, but as an EPAK black belt, one thing I have really learned is that defects and deficiencies are perceived only. That doesn't mean that you won't have your favorite forms and least favorite ones, but it does mean that I believe with proper instruction the EPAK forms do not have deficient moves.

    I would be interested in hearing why Ron Chapel and Chuck Sullivan do not view Long Form 4 as positively as most others.

    Interesting discussion.

    Jamie Seabrook
    www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Orlando, Florida
    Posts
    6,026
    Thanks
    1,199
    Thanked 1,517 Times in 909 Posts

    Default Re: forms and motion

    My sifu and I have been working on a two-man stick set. It adds an "audible" aspect that the others don't have. lol...and it's fun. =)

    I view forms as one of many tools used to build effective self defense. There is no substitute for actual combat so we use different tools to hone our skills. Forms, techniques, drills, and sparring; each have their own advantages in practice.

    IMHO =)
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

  15. #15
    Jim Hanna is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Purple Belt
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    226
    Thanks
    11
    Thanked 179 Times in 95 Posts

    Default Re: Mr Seabrook

    Thank you for your response. If I understand correctly, you are affiliated with Mr Tatum, and, from what I've read, Mr Tatum does not teach kenpo from the motion perspective. But, I personally view Mr Tatum as being more "old school" than some of the other EPAK instructors. (I mean that as a compliment).

    As far as Doc Chap'el, Chuck Sullivan, (perhaps Mr Mills ?) let me say that I don't personally know what their respective opinions are concerning the 4 form so I would be very interested in hearing from someone who does.
    I tried, in my post, to not imply anything differently.

    One final question, please. Do you step back on the second tech (Dance of Death) nondominant side in the 5 form, and, if so, what's going on that I'm missing? ( i.e.. are you not out of range to execute the ridge hand to the groin -or the forearm/chicken wrist to the solar plexus)? As you can tell, I have a difficult time getting over that perceived defect in the form (at least from my training perspective).

    Glad to have to here.

    Salute,

    Jim

  16. #16
    Doc's Avatar
    Doc
    Doc is offline
    AKI Contributing Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    8,311
    Thanks
    4,212
    Thanked 14,737 Times in 5,484 Posts

    Default Re: Mr Seabrook

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Hanna
    Thank you for your response. If I understand correctly, you are affiliated with Mr Tatum, and, from what I've read, Mr Tatum does not teach kenpo from the motion perspective. But, I personally view Mr Tatum as being more "old school" than some of the other EPAK instructors. (I mean that as a compliment).

    As far as Doc Chap'el, Chuck Sullivan, (perhaps Mr Mills ?) let me say that I don't personally know what their respective opinions are concerning the 4 form so I would be very interested in hearing from someone who does.
    I tried, in my post, to not imply anything differently.

    One final question, please. Do you step back on the second tech (Dance of Death) nondominant side in the 5 form, and, if so, what's going on that I'm missing? ( i.e.. are you not out of range to execute the ridge hand to the groin -or the forearm/chicken wrist to the solar plexus)? As you can tell, I have a difficult time getting over that perceived defect in the form (at least from my training perspective).

    Glad to have to here.

    Salute,

    Jim
    Hey Jim, how are you? Long time no hear from. The question at hand regarding Long Form 4, I actually recently answered on MartialTalk in a question about the history of the forms. Simply, some of the forms were created before the Old Man diverted into the business of kenpo. Others came afterwards and were created for different purposes and to support the new motion based perspective. We personally do not utilize any of the forms past Short Three because from the perspective I was taught, they bare no useful info. They are indeed studies of "motion" and not proper "movement." They all contain ideas that the system does not provide the foundation to explore and from an anatomical perspective are simply unuseful.

    Parker created, adjusted, and borrowed forms to suit his needs and puposes all the time.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

    "It's much easier to quote, than to know." - Ron Chapél


    www.MSUACF.com

  17. #17
    Jim Hanna is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Purple Belt
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    226
    Thanks
    11
    Thanked 179 Times in 95 Posts

    Default Re: forms and motion

    Hi Doc,

    Thanks for your response. I thought that that was your perspective but did not want to misrepresent anything.

    Your response, of course, does not endear you to many in the kenpo world, but I, for one, appreciate it.

    Now, if I could only correct you on your views of Kenpo history, and soft tissue strikes...

    Salute,
    Jim

  18. #18
    Doc's Avatar
    Doc
    Doc is offline
    AKI Contributing Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    8,311
    Thanks
    4,212
    Thanked 14,737 Times in 5,484 Posts

    Default Re: forms and motion

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Hanna
    Hi Doc,

    Thanks for your response. I thought that that was your perspective but did not want to misrepresent anything.

    Your response, of course, does not endear you to many in the kenpo world, but I, for one, appreciate it.

    Now, if I could only correct you on your views of Kenpo history, and soft tissue strikes...

    Salute,
    Jim
    Yeah Jim we're a bit of an odd duck if you will, but at least I can physically prove everything I say. That helps. Good to hear from you. Stick around and rattle some cages. KenpoTalk, and Martialtalk is where the intelligent hang out and have real discussions.

    "If everybody is doing it, it can't be the best stuff. The higher you go, the fewer the numbers." - Ed Parker Sr.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

    "It's much easier to quote, than to know." - Ron Chapél


    www.MSUACF.com

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    San Francisco
    Posts
    2,723
    Thanks
    1,603
    Thanked 3,077 Times in 1,445 Posts

    Default Re: forms and motion

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Hanna View Post
    I am curious as to how many Tracy practitioners train their numbered forms (e.g. 4) from a motion perspective. I see and have commented upon some defects in the numbered forms (from my tactical perspective). However, it is my understanding that everything makes sense in these forms if viewed as a study of motion and catagory completion. Hence, there are no defects.
    I would like to get some clarification of what is meant here, if someone could help. What exactly is meant by "from a motion perspective"? When I do the kenpo forms, I see the attack and execute the technique against the attack. How does this differ from "a motion perspective?" And how do you view a form as a study of motion? Again, I see a catalog of techniques. Could someone help me out here? thx.
    Michael


    de gustibus non disputante est.
    Negative Douche Bag Number One

  20. #20
    SifuDangeRuss is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. Green Belt
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    The Soggy Pacific Northwest
    Posts
    602
    Thanks
    28
    Thanked 152 Times in 78 Posts

    Smile Re: forms and motion



    Once again, weighing in with the Sam Pai Point of View, or perhaps moreso the DangeRuss Perspective on this matter.

    We practice all of the forms with an emphasize on performing each and every technique with the same speed, power and intensity in which we'd perform the technique in an actual street application. Our focus is in fighting the mock fight to win. We feel that if we perform the techniques as we would as practical, effective individual self defense techniques, then the appearence takes care of itself. No specific attention is given to "Motion" over practical application.

    That being said, (Keep in mind many of our forms are unique to Sam Pai despite sharing the same labels as the AK forms) there is kind of a list of underlying principals or progressive lessons within each form.



    Short Form 1 - A basic Anthology of Blocks and Stances, promotes synchronicity of upper/lower body

    Finger Set - An Anthology of Finger Techniques, promotes attention to detail

    Short form 2 - Developes basic Self Defense, stringing basic techniques together and tranisitoning from one to the next

    Long Form 1 - Introduces the Chinese influence, flowing, circular movements, spins, leaps as well as the transitions between circles and lines

    Long Form 2 - Promotes examination of 'Lateral Biasing" or Stong side/Weak side special emphasis on stances and bows

    Short Form 3 - Promotes power and the true combat element of kata

    Long Form 3 - Developes flow, continuity and begins to work on stamina

    Form 4 - Developes Breathing, Lateral Biasing, Mental and Physical Endurance and Concentration

    Twin Shadow Set - Basic Two Man Set - Developes Give-Take Flow with basic strike/block/counterstrikes and Trust

    Returning Shadow Set - Advanced 2 Man set - Developes Action/Reaction into Combat mode by exhanging full blown techniques as opposed to simple strike/block/counterstrike is is effectively dualling techniques

    Creed Form - Mr Dimmick's Blackbelt Thesis Form - Explores the Roots of Sam Pai Kenpo

    Dance of the Dragon - My Blackbelt Form promotes Fluid Speed, Self Expression and Speed/Flow Governance

    Form 5 - Developes the ability to react from awkward or unorthadox positions, lateral biasing

    In addition to the above curriculem we also teach several White Lotus Sword forms and our own Living Arnis sets.

    NEW and IMPROVED Non-Chunky Version!

    [SIGPIC]http://www.angelfire.com/wa/dangerusskenpo[/SIGPIC]

    I only know enough, to understand how much I don't know

    http://www.angelfire.com/wa/dangerusskenpo

Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast

Remove Ads

Sponsored Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. EPAK: How many forms are there, and what are they?
    By Bob Hubbard in forum FAQ Development Forum
    Replies: 53
    Last Post: 06-28-2011, 02:34 AM
  2. Devil's Advocate
    By Brother John in forum Parker - Mills / AKKI
    Replies: 225
    Last Post: 04-25-2007, 08:00 PM
  3. Sub-Level 4 Kenpo Concepts
    By Dr. Dave in da house in forum Parker - Chapél / SubLevel 4 Kenpo™
    Replies: 31
    Last Post: 10-27-2006, 01:05 PM
  4. Value of Kenpo Forms Training
    By Casey_Sutherland in forum Kenpo General
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: 01-25-2006, 06:19 PM
  5. Forms Question?
    By Fastmover in forum Parker - Mills / AKKI
    Replies: 29
    Last Post: 10-08-2005, 12:46 PM

Search tags for this page (caching method: memcache)

content

Click on a term to search our site for related topics.