Results 1 to 13 of 13

Thread: punch from chamber

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    1,818
    Thanks
    984
    Thanked 337 Times in 234 Posts

    Default punch from chamber

    Question for the SL_4 folks; I do not practice the reverse punch, nor do my basic punches from a horse stance. I also don't chamber and recahmber punches at my hip. However, I'm not sure about eliminating the chamber from basics practice.

    A straight punch, diamond fist (@45' at delivery)feels better- more structually sound, powerful, and faster- if brought from hanging naturally to and through the chamber position, then delivering straight along the side and torquing as the elbow clears the side. This is a lot easier on my right side, where I have some physical problems. Just doing the punch from chamber, without the arm hanging, does not seem to have this effect.

    I'm wondering if there is some allignment mechanism occuring here, or an internal index function. How do you practice your straight punches?

    Dan C

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Elk Grove, CA
    Posts
    4,018
    Thanks
    1,163
    Thanked 913 Times in 561 Posts

    Default Re: punch from chamber

    I'm not an SL4 person, so I can't answer that, but I am interested in seeing you do a clip of the kind of punches you're talking about.

    Would you see if you could do that?

    I'd appreciate it.

    --Amy
    The New Kenpo Continuum Book is now accepting submissions for volume 2. Our fabulous, ever-changing website is Sacramento Kenpo Karate.
    I'm a member of the Universal Life Church and the ULC Seminary. I'm also a Sacramento Wedding Minister and Disc Jockey
    New Cool (free) kenpo tool bar: http://KenpoKarate.OurToolbar.com/


  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    1,818
    Thanks
    984
    Thanked 337 Times in 234 Posts

    Default Re: punch from chamber

    Quote Originally Posted by amylong View Post
    I am interested in seeing you do a clip of the kind of punches you're talking about. Would you see if you could do that?
    I might be interested, but I lack the technability to pull it off. So, I'll just have to fall back on the old AK standby of describing it n detail.

    Let's start from a right neutral bow, facing an immaginary opponent at 12:00. For instructional purposes, your hands hang naturally at your side.

    The opponent advances, and you step back with your right foot to about 6:30 into a left reverse bow. Then, step your left foot to about 11:00 into a left neutral bow. The opponent, still at your original 12:00, is now at about your 1:00. At the same time, bring your left hand up to a chambered position at your left hip, fist facing up,and without stoping punch to your attackers right ribcage. The arm/fist should piston straight out, elbow in light contact with your side until it clears your body. As the elbow clears, the forearm and fist rotate clockwise until the fist is at about 45' as it strikes into the target. The main thing is that there is no unatural tension in the arm from over or under rotating.

    If I do this punch from a neutral bow (and moreso from a horse) but with the fist chambered, I can feel slight tension and pressure at the lower back of my shoulder and in my lower neck. Starting with the hands down at my side, I don't feel this pressure or the tension. On my right side, where I have some physical problems, I can really feel the difference.

    Try it and let me know what you think.

    Dan C

    edit: start to bring your fist up to chamber as soon as you start to step back with your right foot. Also, the elbow will be in contact with your ghi through delivery- not really your side. Just to clarify a couple of points. Thx.
    Last edited by thedan; 10-08-2006 at 04:29 PM.

  4. #4
    kenposikh's Avatar
    kenposikh is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Orange Belt
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Seaton, Devon. United Kingdom
    Posts
    134
    Thanks
    16
    Thanked 26 Times in 17 Posts

    Default Re: punch from chamber

    Quote Originally Posted by amylong View Post
    I'm not an SL4 person, so I can't answer that, but I am interested in seeing you do a clip of the kind of punches you're talking about.

    Would you see if you could do that?

    I'd appreciate it.

    --Amy
    Hi Amy if you're referring to the diamond shape punch then please do the following test and see for yourself.

    1. Take up a goo right neutral stance, make sure you heels are pushed out and your knees are bent. (this may feel awkward at first but bear with me)

    2. next throw out a right leading thrust punch and hold it in place. Using torque etc so that the knuckles are all pointing upwards.

    3. Now get someone to hold onto your fist and steadily start applying pressure towards you and through your arm and see how long you can hold out.

    4. Repeat the above process but this time with the punch do not go past 45 degrees with the punch from vertical in other words your thumb joint should be poiting rough tards 9 o clock forming what I would say is the diamond shape.

    Which one seems to offer most resistance.

  5. #5
    Richard Finn's Avatar
    Richard Finn is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. Blue Belt
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Pittsburgh
    Posts
    401
    Thanks
    234
    Thanked 149 Times in 103 Posts

    Default Re: punch from chamber

    [quote=thedan;30945]
    If I do this punch from a neutral bow (and moreso from a horse) but with the fist chambered, I can feel slight tension and pressure at the lower back of my shoulder and in my lower neck. Starting with the hands down at my side, I don't feel this pressure or the tension. On my right side, where I have some physical problems, I can really feel the difference.


    I can't rule out a technique problem but this sounds like it has muscular implications. When I tried the technique as you described it, I too felt the tightness in the chambered position and much less so just coming into the punch from my point of origin.

    I have a chronic left shoulder injury. Two muscles that cause the exact pain you desribe sound like you took my pain! The muscles are the lats and the serratus anterior.

    To test the lats flexibility stand at attention and bring your arm in an arc from in front to along the side of your head. It should go behind your head.

    To test the serratus anterior sit straddling a chair facing its back with your finger tips resting on the top of your pelvis. Have someone bring your bent elbow toward your spine. If it fails to reach the spine your serratus anterior is probably tight.

    If these test show shortened mucles let me know and I can describe a self treatment and stretch that might help. It won't fix a technique problem but if it is not technique...
    Hands on Healer

    "If you can not be King be a healer."

    "The hands of the King are the hands of a healer"

  6. #6
    warrior-scholar's Avatar
    warrior-scholar is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Yellow Belt
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    65
    Thanks
    3
    Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts

    Default Re: punch from chamber

    Interesting thoughts...
    Punching from the "hanging" position perhaps draws on the same principle as the rising punch. The punch actually travels a greater distance, even if not a straight line. Since most techs are done from a natural stance, it seems normal for us to work punches this way. I don't know about you, but I don't want to walk around like a dork with my hands chambered!
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    Kenpo dreams are the sweetest.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    1,818
    Thanks
    984
    Thanked 337 Times in 234 Posts

    Default Re: punch from chamber

    Quote Originally Posted by kenposikh View Post
    ...do the following test... Take up a goo right neutral stance,...throw out a right leading thrust punch and hold it in place. Using torque etc so that the knuckles are all pointing upwards. Now get someone to hold onto your fist and steadily start applying pressure ... Repeat the above process but this time with the punch do not go past 45 degrees with the punch from vertical... Which one seems to offer most resistance.
    Good test! Thanks for the input! To really get the concept down, you'd need to give her a target to get the angle correct, as it changes with height, posture, angle of delivery, and distance the punch travels outward. I usually have the person point their finger, finger tip touching the target, and hold it in a relaxed state. The angle of the hand is about the angle they will strike with the fist, so it gives them some idea.

    Take a left neutral bow and strike an immaginary person standing naturally in front of you:

    *to his nose, the fist is turned slightly, thumb to 1:00-1:30
    *to his right ribs, thumb up to 10:30
    *to his solar plex, thumb up to 1:30

    As I said, the main thing is that there is no unatural tension, which misaligns the structural components of the arm. Misalignment sets up tension, which robs speed and power, destroys structure in the arm and throughout the body, and blocks the flow of internal energy (qi). You will also find that the natural (or diamond) fist fits most targets better, and keeps the first two knucles in the lead better when striking- for better penetration and protection of the hand. It also better distributes the load of a punch throughout the structure of the arm, which includes the entire shoulder to the neck, thus lessening injury over time.

    My understanding, and what seems to work best for me. Try it and see for yourself. Comments and corrections welcome, as I'm still trying to improve my own understanding of this.

    Dan C
    Last edited by thedan; 10-09-2006 at 01:44 PM.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    1,818
    Thanks
    984
    Thanked 337 Times in 234 Posts

    Default Re: punch from chamber

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Finn View Post
    ...this sounds like it has muscular implications. When I tried the technique as you described it, I too felt the tightness in the chambered position and much less so just coming into the punch from my point of origin. -I have a chronic left shoulder injury. Two muscles that cause the exact pain you desribe sound like you took my pain! The muscles are the lats and the serratus anterior...If these test show shortened mucles let me know and I can describe a self treatment and stretch that might help. It won't fix a technique problem but if it is not technique...
    Big time! Thats one reason I spend a lot of time in traction or laying around with dowels stuck into my back, shoulders and arm pits! By the way, I ordered that book you recomended. I havn't heard back from them, so there is a chance the order didn't go through (computers and me don't work well together). But, I digress- yes, my muscles are continually in a bound up state of guarding from neurological impengement problems at C-7, 6 & 5. This is felt throughout the neck and shoulder girdle, especially on the right side. If left untreated, it manifests itself throughout my body very quickly. So you are right on with your assesment.

    Due to these problems, I can really feel when I do something wrong, or something that is just wrong from its' inception. The classic reverse punch is about as wrong as anything in the martial arts in both my experience and from what I've been able to uncover in my reading and talking to other, more senior practitioners of internal arts- including Doc.

    What I'm trying to do here is to refine my punching so that it is more effective, does less dammage to me under load, and so that I can continue to practice without doing more dammage to already compromised body structures and inflaming or dammaging nerves.

    Thanks for your input. You seem to be pretty knowlegable.

    Dan C

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    1,818
    Thanks
    984
    Thanked 337 Times in 234 Posts

    Default Re: punch from chamber

    [quote=warrior-scholar;30988]Punching from the "hanging" position perhaps draws on the same principle as the rising punch. The punch actually travels a greater distance, even if not a straight line.[\quote]
    Interesting analogy. Could you elaborate on how you see these principles at work?

    Since most techs are done from a natural stance, it seems normal for us to work punches this way. I don't know about you, but I don't want to walk around like a dork with my hands chambered!
    lol. Good point!

    My main focus is to develope proper punches that I can train more without aggrivating existing injuries, and possibly to develope internal indexing mechanisms that will still be there from point of origin. But not looking like a dork is important too!

    Dan C

  10. #10
    JamesB is offline
    KenpoTalk
    1st. Brown Belt
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Cheltenham, UK
    Posts
    844
    Thanks
    566
    Thanked 545 Times in 314 Posts

    Default Re: punch from chamber

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan View Post
    Due to these problems, I can really feel when I do something wrong, or something that is just wrong from its' inception. The classic reverse punch is about as wrong as anything in the martial arts in both my experience and from what I've been able to uncover in my reading and talking to other, more senior practitioners of internal arts- including Doc.
    I'm confused by what you refer to as the 'classic' reverse punch. I think you mean the orientation of the arm, where the fist is 'palm down', arm fully extended at shoulder height. In other words, what you see in many Japanese karate styles. Is this correct?

    I have been taught to punch with the 'diamond' formation you describe, so thats what I do now. But I still call it a 'reverse punch', and the only thing that's changed in my view is how the arm + shoulder is aligned. The way the hips + torso are aligned is still the same (square-on and to the front), with one leg behind you acting as a brace. We're still on the same page here, right?

    What you are saying regarding relaxation of the body (i.e. no unnatural tension) is consistant with what I am being taught. I'm still not sure what you are describing with the 'chambering' thing though - are you saying chambering the punch gives you problems? It was my understanding that the 'chamber' acted as an 'index' as you describe. But the fist can be chambered at the chest as well as at the hip. Have you tried chambering from this elevated position, so that the forearm is parallel to the floor?

    Case in point, Attacking Mace:
    Step back, pivot to left-neutral with the inward-block, chambering the right fist at the side of the chest, palm facing up. The chambered arm, in that position, lends stablity to the upper body so that the block is stronger (you should still be relaxed though I guess). But it's also chambered ready for the followup reverse punch which strikes the ribs in as a 'vertical' punch. Neat technique.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    1,818
    Thanks
    984
    Thanked 337 Times in 234 Posts

    Default Re: punch from chamber

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
    I'm confused by what you refer to as the 'classic' reverse punch. I think you mean the orientation of the arm, where the fist is 'palm down', arm fully extended at shoulder height. In other words, what you see in many Japanese karate styles. Is this correct?
    Exactly, though I see this a lot in AK and other contemporary schools as well.

    I have been taught to punch with the 'diamond' formation you describe, ...I still call it a 'reverse punch', and the only thing that's changed in my view is how the arm + shoulder is aligned. The way the hips + torso are aligned is still the same...
    Correct. However, as Doc has said here, anything you do with any part of your body can have a profound effect on the rest of your body. Hold your fist out in most any punching configuration, but relaxed. Now, turn it so that the palm is down, knuckles up, in the "classic" reverse punch configuration. As you said, the tension and misalignment is readily felt in the shoulder. I can really feel it in my neck as well. However, turn it back and forth and concentrate on what is happening in your side and hips, and I think you'll notice an effect there as well.

    I'm still not sure what you are describing with the 'chambering' thing though - are you saying chambering the punch gives you problems? It was my understanding that the 'chamber' acted as an 'index' as you describe. But the fist can be chambered at the chest as well as at the hip. Have you tried chambering from this elevated position, so that the forearm is parallel to the floor?
    Yes, I have. And it is better that way. What I'm doing right now is working on basics, without the "classic" chamber at the hip, palm up, punch and return to chamber. This very common, especially from a horse, method of drilling basics does cause me a lot of problems. It is also my contention that it teaches some very bad habbits and probably (I'm not knowlegable enough to make a definative statement here) ingrains some counterproductive indexing sequences and methods.

    Appreciate your input. If you have any other thoughts, please, feel free...

    Dan C

  12. #12
    JamesB is offline
    KenpoTalk
    1st. Brown Belt
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Cheltenham, UK
    Posts
    844
    Thanks
    566
    Thanked 545 Times in 314 Posts

    Default Re: punch from chamber

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan View Post
    Exactly, though I see this a lot in AK and other contemporary schools as well.
    yup. I always find it interesting to see the effect of 'cross pollination' between styles. Maybe another example of the 'motion kenpo' system, where instead of the basics being well-defined from the start, it is the instructors bringing prior knowledge which helps to grow the system. So the horizontal punch + training horse is imported from karate just because it looks good to the prospective students...

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan View Post
    Yes, I have. And it is better that way. What I'm doing right now is working on basics, without the "classic" chamber at the hip, palm up, punch and return to chamber. This very common, especially from a horse, method of drilling basics does cause me a lot of problems. It is also my contention that it teaches some very bad habbits and probably (I'm not knowlegable enough to make a definative statement here) ingrains some counterproductive indexing sequences and methods.
    I'm wondering if this is the point that Doc was alluding to in the 'striking set 1' thread where he says there is little of value in that set. I'd also be willing to entertain the idea that the 'static punching' from horse ingrains bad habits. Actually I'd say it definitely does - when would you *ever* punch like that in real life? But I couldn't say for certain if it actually harms one's body - instead would punching from horse build muscle and stamina to some extent? Certainly one can get a sweat going punching from horse, but perhaps this is wrongly understood by many as being a good thing - getting a good work-out does not necessarily mean you've been doing things efficiently and 'correctly'.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    1,818
    Thanks
    984
    Thanked 337 Times in 234 Posts

    Default Re: punch from chamber

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
    yup. I always find it interesting to see the effect of 'cross pollination' between styles. Maybe another example of the 'motion kenpo' system, ...
    :lol: Ironic, but being a motion type of kenpoist myself, and not currently training with a regular school, I feel free to discard some of the things I find counterproductive or harmful. I also feel free to experiment with some of Doc's methods, even though I don't know what the heck I'm doing!

    I'm wondering if this is the point that Doc was alluding to in the 'striking set 1' thread where he says there is little of value in that set.
    As I understand him, he meant that and more! Anatomically weak and downright harmful is what I think he said.

    - when would you *ever* punch like that in real life?
    I've seen systems that actually train to punch like that, from a horse with both fists chambered, in their fighting techniques. I worked out with one a little while ago that parried my right punch, steped around to my right side so the defender was perpendicular to me and in a horse, and threw two classical reverse punches from a hip chamber to my floating rib. It took a lot of self control not to turn into a close kneel and heel hook his groin. Amazing.

    Dan C

Remove Ads

Sponsored Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 6
    Last Post: 03-04-2011, 03:06 PM
  2. Parkers Kenpo Technique Listing - 24 Technique Curriculum
    By Bob Hubbard in forum Ed Parker Kenpo
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-27-2006, 06:07 PM
  3. Long Form 4
    By Rob Broad in forum Ed Parker Kenpo
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-23-2006, 03:43 PM

Search tags for this page (caching method: memcache)

kenpo chamber position

Click on a term to search our site for related topics.