Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 28

Thread: Disassociation

  1. #1
    Jonah's Avatar
    Jonah is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. White Belt
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    England
    Posts
    39
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default Disassociation

    Firstly I would like to point out I am not a Sub-level 4 student and have had no exposure to it in person. The only exposure is via discussions on these forums. Discussions I find fascinating

    Now there is a specific forum for this Linage, I would like to pose a question to the SL4 guys (Please excuse the abbreviation)

    I have found the discussion relating to Structural disassociation fascinating with regard to stepping direction. From what I understand you consider that stepping backwards when the attack is in that direction or forwards under that condition to be structurally inefficient without a ‘compensating mechanism’.

    Do you consider these movements significantly inefficient to remove their use in some of the Technique situations or are the compensating mechanisms sufficient to leave them in place.

    Does your curriculum for instance include the use of these mechanisms within the Forms.

    Also, from my understanding the traditional ‘C’ step is considered inefficient. May I ask if there is a compensating mechanism for this movement as I consider the C step an important base manoeuvre?

    Respectfully,

    Jonah
    Last edited by Jonah; 04-28-2005 at 05:32 AM. Reason: Formatting

  2. #2
    Doc's Avatar
    Doc
    Doc is offline
    AKI Contributing Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    8,261
    Thanks
    4,184
    Thanked 14,673 Times in 5,452 Posts

    Default Re: Disassociation

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    Firstly I would like to point out I am not a Sub-level 4 student and have had no exposure to it in person. The only exposure is via discussions on these forums. Discussions I find fascinating

    Now there is a specific forum for this Linage, I would like to pose a question to the SL4 guys (Please excuse the abbreviation)

    I have found the discussion relating to Structural disassociation fascinating with regard to stepping direction. From what I understand you consider that stepping backwards when the attack is in that direction or forwards under that condition to be structurally inefficient without a ‘compensating mechanism’.
    Correct.
    Do you consider these movements significantly inefficient to remove their use in some of the Technique situations or are the compensating mechanisms sufficient to leave them in place.
    Certainly everything depends on specifics. However it would not be prudent to intentionally retain inefficient movement simply because you have access to "correcting mechanisms." Basics should be trained as efficiently as possible, and "correcting mechanisms" should be used to re-enforce or correct movement as necessary for the circumstances at hand.
    Does your curriculum for instance include the use of these mechanisms within the Forms.
    How would you teach proper anatomicl movement without correcting mechanisms, when some movements by necessity are inefficient and require correction?
    Also, from my understanding the traditional ‘C’ step is considered inefficient. May I ask if there is a compensating mechanism for this movement as I consider the C step an important base manoeuvre?
    Jonah
    If you examine the above, I think you'll see my answer is to abandon the "c" step (as I understand it), as grossly inefficient and replace it with proper basics. it will absolutely breakdown your structural integirty.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

    "It's much easier to quote, than to know." - Ron Chapél


    www.MSUACF.com

  3. #3
    Jonah's Avatar
    Jonah is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. White Belt
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    England
    Posts
    39
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default Re: Disassociation

    Doc wrote:
    "If you examine the above, I think you'll see my answer is to abandon the "c" step (as I understand it), as grossly inefficient and replace it with proper basics. it will absolutely breakdown your structural integirty."

    As far as my understanding goes (limited though it might be) the 'c' step is intended as a manoeuvre to circumnavigate an obstruction such as an opponent’s leg. Admittedly I would only use this in a forward movement – cant see the use going backwards as taught by some, what’s the point of leaving an advantageous position to go round a leg when you could take it with a straight sweeping step back? Anyway, the confusion in my mind may be the difference in what I perform to the correct definition of ‘c’ step. The movement I would perform would be described as a step through via a transitional cat stance – may be this is considered more stable. What do you say!



    Thank you 'Doc' for the personal response from the ‘Top man’ at SL4

  4. #4
    Doc's Avatar
    Doc
    Doc is offline
    AKI Contributing Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    8,261
    Thanks
    4,184
    Thanked 14,673 Times in 5,452 Posts

    Default Re: Disassociation

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    Doc wrote:
    "If you examine the above, I think you'll see my answer is to abandon the "c" step (as I understand it), as grossly inefficient and replace it with proper basics. it will absolutely breakdown your structural integirty."

    As far as my understanding goes (limited though it might be) the 'c' step is intended as a manoeuvre to circumnavigate an obstruction such as an opponent’s leg. Admittedly I would only use this in a forward movement – cant see the use going backwards as taught by some, what’s the point of leaving an advantageous position to go round a leg when you could take it with a straight sweeping step back? Anyway, the confusion in my mind may be the difference in what I perform to the correct definition of ‘c’ step. The movement I would perform would be described as a step through via a transitional cat stance – may be this is considered more stable. What do you say!



    Thank you 'Doc' for the personal response from the ‘Top man’ at SL4
    No.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

    "It's much easier to quote, than to know." - Ron Chapél


    www.MSUACF.com

  5. #5
    execkenpo is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. Green Belt
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    London, Ontario
    Posts
    601
    Thanks
    85
    Thanked 103 Times in 69 Posts

    Default Re: Disassociation

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    No.
    Doc can you elaborate on this one. What type of stepping motion do you take when moving forward or back in this case? What do you consider to be proper basics?

    A little more on the issue of steping backwards from and advancing technique. In general how would you deal with this situation? I know we don't teach students to step back to 6:00 but to move back on a 45 angle.

    I look forward to hearing what you have to say.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Dana Point, CA
    Posts
    2,332
    Thanks
    2,257
    Thanked 4,344 Times in 1,415 Posts

    Default Re: Disassociation

    Quote Originally Posted by execkenpo View Post
    Doc can you elaborate on this one. What type of stepping motion do you take when moving forward or back in this case? What do you consider to be proper basics?

    A little more on the issue of steping backwards from and advancing technique. In general how would you deal with this situation? I know we don't teach students to step back to 6:00 but to move back on a 45 angle.

    I look forward to hearing what you have to say.
    1. How many years old are you?

    2. Assuming you started walking at an average age, how many years have you been walking?

    3. When you walk, do you C-step, or ambulate straight forward?

    The adductor muscles of the legs -- the muscles in the inside of your thighs -- are meant to stabilize the legs during walking. We have X number of years of them doing just that (X = the number of years you have been hoofing about). A C-step fires too many of the wrong fibers, and sends conflicting messages through the neuromuscular network of your body. In other words, the body is left to say, "Now, which way did you want me to go? Against what direction did you want me to have maximum resistance?"

    In your foot maneuvers (i.e., step-throguh forward), just do the movement. If you're moving forwards, move forward. The medial and lateral deviation that takes place in a C-step, in addition to the forward or back part, just confuses the body, and breaks down the integrity of signals within the body that help/cause it to maintain structural integrity.

    In this particular instance, step the rear foot forward or lead foot back like they are over straight rails on the floor. Transitional forward bows included.

    D.
    Clear mind, clear movement. Mastery of the Arts is mastery over the Self. That in this moment, this motion, the thoughts, memories, impulses and passions that cloud the mind must yield to the clarity of purpose, and purity of motion.

  7. #7
    execkenpo is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. Green Belt
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    London, Ontario
    Posts
    601
    Thanks
    85
    Thanked 103 Times in 69 Posts

    Default Re: Disassociation

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    1. How many years old are you?

    2. Assuming you started walking at an average age, how many years have you been walking?

    3. When you walk, do you C-step, or ambulate straight forward?

    The adductor muscles of the legs -- the muscles in the inside of your thighs -- are meant to stabilize the legs during walking. We have X number of years of them doing just that (X = the number of years you have been hoofing about). A C-step fires too many of the wrong fibers, and sends conflicting messages through the neuromuscular network of your body. In other words, the body is left to say, "Now, which way did you want me to go? Against what direction did you want me to have maximum resistance?"

    In your foot maneuvers (i.e., step-throguh forward), just do the movement. If you're moving forwards, move forward. The medial and lateral deviation that takes place in a C-step, in addition to the forward or back part, just confuses the body, and breaks down the integrity of signals within the body that help/cause it to maintain structural integrity.

    In this particular instance, step the rear foot forward or lead foot back like they are over straight rails on the floor. Transitional forward bows included.

    D.
    Thanks for clearing that up! This is what we are already doing and teaching at our school when going through self defences and maneuvers and it makes perfect sense. The only time we do the c-step is when doing the basic forms, short/long 1 and 2. I will have to look at this further in our forms practise. So I guess the question is...why do we do the c-step in some forms? Is this a holdover from the more 'traditional' days of training or do we do it to teach something?

    Thanks again. It's nice to know I'm on the right track some of the time

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Elk Grove, CA
    Posts
    4,018
    Thanks
    1,163
    Thanked 913 Times in 561 Posts

    Default Re: Disassociation

    Wouldn't crashing wings involve a c-step?

    Mind you, I don't do c-steps for much (not in my katas either), but wouldn't that be considered one?

    --Amy
    The New Kenpo Continuum Book is now accepting submissions for volume 2. Our fabulous, ever-changing website is Sacramento Kenpo Karate.
    I'm a member of the Universal Life Church and the ULC Seminary. I'm also a Sacramento Wedding Minister and Disc Jockey
    New Cool (free) kenpo tool bar: http://KenpoKarate.OurToolbar.com/


  9. #9
    execkenpo is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. Green Belt
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    London, Ontario
    Posts
    601
    Thanks
    85
    Thanked 103 Times in 69 Posts

    Default Re: Disassociation

    Quote Originally Posted by amylong View Post
    Wouldn't crashing wings involve a c-step?

    Mind you, I don't do c-steps for much (not in my katas either), but wouldn't that be considered one?

    --Amy
    It does when we do it too. In this case the c-step is used to get around the foot and I can't see any other way to do it. You don't c-step in short/long 1/2? That's where we stop. Maybe it's just a bad habit we have....

  10. #10
    Chris M is offline
    KenpoTalk
    White Belt
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    6
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default Re: Disassociation

    Quote Originally Posted by amylong View Post
    Wouldn't crashing wings involve a c-step?

    Mind you, I don't do c-steps for much (not in my katas either), but wouldn't that be considered one?

    --Amy

    Hello Amy, I think the original poster is talking about a different type of c-stepping, called half-mooning, in Shaolin Kempo, my first style. I, too, find that type of c-stepping impractical because they c-step every time they advance or retreat. So, for example, if they were to perform Delayed Sword, as they stepped back to 6, instead of stepping straight back with their left foot as they hammer the attacker's arm, their foot would c-step back to 6.

    In Crashing Wings, we c-step backwards around a leg to get behind the attacker. In Circling the Horizon, we c-step forward around the attacker's leg.

    Shaolin kempo, tends to do the c-stepping instead of just stepping forward, even when they just advance forward as they punch. They do not have neutral bows nor forward bows. Instead of the neutral bow with the feet and toes angled as we do, at 45 degree angles either to the left or right, they just have both feet pointing straight ahead from their fighting stance. So if they want to throw a right punch, and their left foot is forward, right is back, as they throw a right punch they would c-step forward with their rear leg as they punch with the right. They have no concept of the neutral to forward bow as they punch.

    I prefer to only c-step in the techniques in which you need to step around a leg. I feel it is wasted energy to c-step with every step as my former art did,and it detracts from the concept of where the feet go, the hands follow because they are not attacking the center line with their feet. Instead of attacking from a left neutral bow, stepping through with their right foot to 12 o'clock, they are c-stepping with that right foot to about 2 o'clock as they are supposedly attack forward.

    Forgive my rambling on about my old style.

    Chris

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Dana Point, CA
    Posts
    2,332
    Thanks
    2,257
    Thanked 4,344 Times in 1,415 Posts

    Default Re: Disassociation

    Quote Originally Posted by execkenpo View Post
    Thanks for clearing that up! This is what we are already doing and teaching at our school when going through self defences and maneuvers and it makes perfect sense. The only time we do the c-step is when doing the basic forms, short/long 1 and 2. I will have to look at this further in our forms practise. So I guess the question is...why do we do the c-step in some forms? Is this a holdover from the more 'traditional' days of training or do we do it to teach something?

    Thanks again. It's nice to know I'm on the right track some of the time
    I would suggest re-writing your forms to exclude the C-step, and replace it with stepping. The ideal aspect of iit is that it covers the groin while you're in transition. I mentioned this to Doc one night, and his reply was to look at me like I was being an idiot, and say, "Are you tellin' me that if someone takes a shot at your groin, you're too dumb to turn your body or put your hand there, because you're too busy walking?". Sometimes simple is deep.

    I have since given up that line of reasoning.

    Dave
    Clear mind, clear movement. Mastery of the Arts is mastery over the Self. That in this moment, this motion, the thoughts, memories, impulses and passions that cloud the mind must yield to the clarity of purpose, and purity of motion.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Orlando, Florida
    Posts
    6,026
    Thanks
    1,199
    Thanked 1,517 Times in 909 Posts

    Default Re: Disassociation

    I was always taught that a C-Step was used as a take down method or sweep. It served two functions: 1) It positions your leg behind the opponents leg you wish to sweep and 2) as you complete the step it positions your hip next to your opponent so you can use it as a fulcrum mechanism to assist in the throw.

    Per some old notes of mine: The C-Step is a takedown, a sweep more specifically, designed to allow you to circumvent the opponents leg and position your leg behind it in preparation for the take down. As you complete the step your hip comes into contact with that of the opponents allowing you to bump them disrupting their balance and also allowing you to use it as a fulcrum to aid in the throw. As you bump the opponent, drive your "stepping" leg back through your opponent's leg sweeping it out from under them. The point of contact should be just at the calf or below so that the opponent can not escape the sweep by bending their leg.

    That's the only way I use it.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

  13. #13
    warrior-scholar's Avatar
    warrior-scholar is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Yellow Belt
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    65
    Thanks
    3
    Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts

    Default Re: Disassociation

    Having just a brief stint in the Shaolin Kempo camp, I cannot comment on their complete usage of the C-step. However, I do find the maneuver as an effective tool in helping students learn footwork in Short 1, for example. Many students have a hard time with stepping into Neutral Bows. Most find the C-Step maneuver helpful in finding the right spot for the step. After they feel comfortable I make them change to a straight step. This has also worked well for the 3rd transition in Long 1. They usually don't need it by then, but I have done it before.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    Kenpo dreams are the sweetest.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    1,818
    Thanks
    984
    Thanked 337 Times in 234 Posts

    Default Re: Disassociation

    I had an interesting experience with disassociation today. Doc has often said that moving any small muscle in your body can have a profound effect on other parts of your body. I went to the doctor today for more tests. One of the things I had to do was lie on my back with one arm held vertically and hold it into place as she tried to move it. Then I was instructed to do the same thing but, moving only my eyes, to look to the left, then right. The difference in the ammount of force it took to move that arm was incredable! She moved it easily when I looked to the side, where looking straight up she had to really push and pull hard to move it, even with the leverage she had. And the only difference is that I had moved my eyes!

    Dan C
    There are things that are worth knowing for their own sake, worth finding for the pure joy of discovery.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Dana Point, CA
    Posts
    2,332
    Thanks
    2,257
    Thanked 4,344 Times in 1,415 Posts

    Default Re: Disassociation

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan View Post
    I had an interesting experience with disassociation today. Doc has often said that moving any small muscle in your body can have a profound effect on other parts of your body. I went to the doctor today for more tests. One of the things I had to do was lie on my back with one arm held vertically and hold it into place as she tried to move it. Then I was instructed to do the same thing but, moving only my eyes, to look to the left, then right. The difference in the ammount of force it took to move that arm was incredable! She moved it easily when I looked to the side, where looking straight up she had to really push and pull hard to move it, even with the leverage she had. And the only difference is that I had moved my eyes!

    Dan C
    "Everything matters."
    -- Doc Chapel
    Clear mind, clear movement. Mastery of the Arts is mastery over the Self. That in this moment, this motion, the thoughts, memories, impulses and passions that cloud the mind must yield to the clarity of purpose, and purity of motion.

  16. #16
    SifuDangeRuss is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. Green Belt
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    The Soggy Pacific Northwest
    Posts
    602
    Thanks
    28
    Thanked 152 Times in 78 Posts

    Default Re: Disassociation

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    1. How many years old are you?

    2. Assuming you started walking at an average age, how many years have you been walking?

    3. When you walk, do you C-step, or ambulate straight forward?

    The adductor muscles of the legs -- the muscles in the inside of your thighs -- are meant to stabilize the legs during walking. We have X number of years of them doing just that (X = the number of years you have been hoofing about). A C-step fires too many of the wrong fibers, and sends conflicting messages through the neuromuscular network of your body. In other words, the body is left to say, "Now, which way did you want me to go? Against what direction did you want me to have maximum resistance?"

    In your foot maneuvers (i.e., step-throguh forward), just do the movement. If you're moving forwards, move forward. The medial and lateral deviation that takes place in a C-step, in addition to the forward or back part, just confuses the body, and breaks down the integrity of signals within the body that help/cause it to maintain structural integrity.

    In this particular instance, step the rear foot forward or lead foot back like they are over straight rails on the floor. Transitional forward bows included.

    D.
    Ummm...try skating in this Straight forward/backward manner. You'll find you seem to stay in one fixed location. Also, I seem to be able to move rather smoothly and naturally while skating, and this seems to be utilizing essentially a C-step manuever...and I don't find any inherant dis-coordination happening during this process. I don't think I have any drastic differences in my physiology? I have the standard issue opposable thumbs, 2 legs located fairly geometrically on either side of my hips, knees bend backward, (not like some birds) and a matching pair of feet below. So I don't think I have any obvious mutations. This movement feels pretty natural to me. Or at least has become so, through practice and repetition. Just like bows, which now feel second nature, didn't initially, but only through time and repition.

    While I understand what you are trying to say, and agree to some degree, what I want to point out is there is a time and place for everything. I use the C-step as some others here, primarily as one tool for takedowns. By stepping in and behind my opponent, it facillitates locking his base, so that I may over ballance him. We all are familiar with this principal, as we have all been a part of it at some point in our lives. It was probably initially in the sandbox at school. When one buddy, stealthily crawls on his hands and knees behind Buddy #2, as Buddy #3 suddenly and unexpectedly (at least to buddy #2) shoves buddy#2 backwards. Buddy #2 instinctively tries to counter the push, by stepping back, to keep his feet underneath his body. Buddy #2 encounters Buddy#1 and finds his feet cannot step back, his momentum carries his upper half over croutching Buddy #1 and he topples to the ground. (aka Lock Base & Over Ballance) This is a tried (in the sand box) and true method of taking someone down.

    NEW and IMPROVED Non-Chunky Version!

    [SIGPIC]http://www.angelfire.com/wa/dangerusskenpo[/SIGPIC]

    I only know enough, to understand how much I don't know

    http://www.angelfire.com/wa/dangerusskenpo

  17. #17
    SifuDangeRuss is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. Green Belt
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    The Soggy Pacific Northwest
    Posts
    602
    Thanks
    28
    Thanked 152 Times in 78 Posts

    Question Re: Disassociation

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan View Post
    I had an interesting experience with disassociation today. Doc has often said that moving any small muscle in your body can have a profound effect on other parts of your body. I went to the doctor today for more tests. One of the things I had to do was lie on my back with one arm held vertically and hold it into place as she tried to move it. Then I was instructed to do the same thing but, moving only my eyes, to look to the left, then right. The difference in the ammount of force it took to move that arm was incredable! She moved it easily when I looked to the side, where looking straight up she had to really push and pull hard to move it, even with the leverage she had. And the only difference is that I had moved my eyes!

    Dan C
    Alright...now that was just plain weird. We did that to everyone in class tonight and the results were pretty universal. I admit that I cannot begin to explain this phenomenon. I want to say it has something to do with focus, as the eyes are directly wired to the brain and seem to play a big role in focusing. However, we also tried this experiement eyes closed. While I cannot rationally explain this away, it does seem to work. So I guess next time someone's trying to apply an armbar on me....I'll be looking straight ahead.
    NEW and IMPROVED Non-Chunky Version!

    [SIGPIC]http://www.angelfire.com/wa/dangerusskenpo[/SIGPIC]

    I only know enough, to understand how much I don't know

    http://www.angelfire.com/wa/dangerusskenpo

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    1,818
    Thanks
    984
    Thanked 337 Times in 234 Posts

    Default Re: Disassociation

    Quote Originally Posted by SifuDangeRuss View Post
    I admit that I cannot begin to explain this phenomenon.
    SDR, there have been several posts and threads about this here on KT. Doc, and some others have commented on the fact that anything you do- even moving one tiny muscle, can have a profound effect on the structure of any part of, or on your entire body.

    Get in a neutral bow, guard up. Now, extend the little finger of your lead hand. If you are at all awake, you can feel the structure in that arm break down. But pay close attention to your hip and you'll feel things go wrong there, too. I tried this the first time I read Doc's suggestion that moving a finger could have a profound effect on structure, and that's what I felt.

    I think the big point is that, in basics, "everything matters" (Dr. Dave quoting Doc).

    Dan C
    There are things that are worth knowing for their own sake, worth finding for the pure joy of discovery.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Elk Grove, CA
    Posts
    4,018
    Thanks
    1,163
    Thanked 913 Times in 561 Posts

    Default Re: Disassociation

    I imagine it's similar to kinesiology.

    Try this: Hold your arm out at shoulder height. Have someone use two fingers to try and push your arm down. Resist.

    Then pick up a packet of sugar and have them push.


    Try the same thing by saying a truth, then a lie. Try saying, "I love kenpo" and your arm will stay strong. Then say, 'I hate kenpo' and watch your arm fling down to your side.

    It's important that your arm be a shoulder height.

    Report back.

    --Amy
    The New Kenpo Continuum Book is now accepting submissions for volume 2. Our fabulous, ever-changing website is Sacramento Kenpo Karate.
    I'm a member of the Universal Life Church and the ULC Seminary. I'm also a Sacramento Wedding Minister and Disc Jockey
    New Cool (free) kenpo tool bar: http://KenpoKarate.OurToolbar.com/


  20. #20
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Orlando, Florida
    Posts
    6,026
    Thanks
    1,199
    Thanked 1,517 Times in 909 Posts

    Default Re: Disassociation

    The toe bone's connected to the foot bone,
    The foot bone's connected to the ankle bone,
    The ankle bone's connected to the leg bone,
    The leg bone's connected to the knee bone,
    The knee bone's connected to the thigh bone......etc, etc, etc
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Remove Ads

Sponsored Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)