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    Default Indexing

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan
    Crossing Talons Question
    If it is a joint lock- left hand pins his right on your wrist as right cranes over his wrist, then drop your weight and push down- it is very painful, and is one of the moves that are infered or can be developed from this technique.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc
    Crossing Talons Question
    There are many reasons why you pin the hand. One of them is strike the back of the hand to reconfiguer the metacarpal bones to destroy structural integrity to prevent any resistence to subsequent actions.


    Additionally sans the pin, this technique is very very easily countered by what Mr. Parker descibed and demonstrated to me as, "Let us pray brother."

    Interestingly this is an old Chi-na Gung-fu/Taijiquan Slapping Hands trapping hands, technique

    You need to understand the shape of his wrist when it is misaligned, in conjuction with the change in shape of the metacarpals, insures your success,

    the pin functions to not allow him to let go and 'reset.' Elongating his arm, manipulating it so his baby finger is upward rotates the ulna and radial bones, controls width, and along with a change of angle, it will control his arm and set up the basic arm bar.



    Quote Originally Posted by thedan
    http://www.kenpotalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=224
    I can tell you what I feel on the first move of RC. From a neutral bow, opponent delivers a left uppercu (correction: inverted punch) to your solar plex. Right downward forearm block to his punch, left hand chambers behind right ear and , and in Docs version, should touch the top back of the head. Hand is open, palm forward, and elbow not too high- I think this is part of what the indexing action of touching the head accomplishes. This just feels right, it is a harmoniouse movement, and also gives a little torque and settling in the stance which enhances power without the time required for a foot maneuver or stance change..
    Doc, as you know, I've been comparing what I find in Kenpo to the little I know of Taiji. Also, conversations with you and others here (a small sampling quoted above) have me thinking, and I'm curiouse about your indexing mechanisms. I think I see them both in Taiji and in AK (motion version). Some things just feel right, in ballance and harmoniouse when done properly. I refer to this as internal harmony.

    As an example, take the wrist lock from Crossing Talons and the first move of Locking Horns. I would not have thought of these as sister techniques until I worked out applications for Needle at Sea Bottom (Yang Taiji). But the hand positioning suggest an identical indexing mechanism. Your right wrist turns vertical as it points down, either to position his wrist for the lock or for the ridge hand strike. Your left hand moves above the level of your right, palm down, either for the handsword to his knee or to strike and pin his hand. This just feels structurally sound. Reposition either hand and that structure breaks down.

    It seems to me that one of the major objectives of any martial arts technique is to enhance your structure and ballance while destroying the opponents. This is what I'm thinking your indexing does- it structures your movement and position for maximum strength and harmony. Not just concepts like directional harmony, though that can be a factor. This is an internal harmony. I wish I could explain it better than that it just "feels right," but I'm nowhere near that level of understanding to do more.

    My question, sir, is (as usual), am I on the right track, or off on another tangent? Is this a large part of what indexing does? I will never come close to finding the level of understanding of SL-4 practitioners, but it is interesting and (I think) worthwhile to look at Kenpo from this perspective.

    Dan C

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    Default Re: Indexing

    For those not familiar with it:

    Needle at Sea Bottom

    Shift all your weight ot your right foot, left foot posts (similar to a cat), left hand in front of body palm down, right hand circles up by right ear and hand naturally alert (no tension- fingers forward and palm slightly turned in toward ear).

    Without stoping motion or transfering weight to the right foot, right hand spears forward and down as left moves naturally in front of left thigh.
    One application of this is very similar to Locking Horns, where the left moves across and out to strike his knee and the right spear hand is delivered from the same bent posture as LH. One difference is that, since you are on a weighted right legthe body turns as the spear hand is delivered and the right shoulder becomes a major part of the weapon, moving him off and back. From there, they'd employ something like a shui-jao move (a throw).

    Another application is the joint lock (chin-na) from Crossing Tallons. The footwork is the same, and the basic motion of the hands is similar. From the grab, right hand turns down (very important) into the spear hand configuration as the left pins his hand to your wrist. It still pulls across a little to improve the angular allignment of his wrist and yours for either a counter-grab or hand wrap (every detail is important), which is the next move.

    I got the wrist lock application from a couple of books (which I'd love to reference, but they are not here right now). The similarity to Locking Horns struck me, and I tried it. It worked.

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    Default Re: Indexing

    hi dan,

    i've not learned sl4, but do practice tai chi. two things i've learned from it is (1) the movements and postures have more to do with the whole body moving from the inside to position the hands and feet on the outside, and (2) it is most definitely complimentary to kenpo (not sure if i'd classify what i do as motion since balance leverage and position are usually more important to me than the resulting series of motions)

    i do not practice yang style, but we have a form called search the needle from deep of the sea, where the outward movements are somewhat similar to what you've described. however, the deep of the sea (or sea bottom) refers to the perineum, which is your extreme yin point which must feel a receiving connection from the earth in order for the form to be successful.

    as for applications, i've been shown many that correspond with basic sd techniques used within the ed parker's american kenpo techniques i've learned. for instance, the set up just before the right knee strike in Defying the Storm uses the 'left sided' version of this form, and the extension to Fatal Deviation uses it from the 'right side'. (i use left and right half heartedly to get my point across, for as you know tai chi is about becoming a sphere, which has no right and left side... only an inside and outside!).

    come to think of it, your attacker may have used search the needle from deep of the sea to get you to respond with Locking Horns!

    good stuff!

    pete

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    Default Re: Indexing

    Quote Originally Posted by pete
    hi dan,

    i've not learned sl4, but do practice tai chi. two things i've learned from it is (1) the movements and postures have more to do with the whole body moving from the inside to position the hands and feet on the outside, and (2) it is most definitely complimentary to kenpo (not sure if i'd classify what i do as motion since balance leverage and position are usually more important to me than the resulting series of motions)

    i do not practice yang style, but we have a form called search the needle from deep of the sea, where the outward movements are somewhat similar to what you've described. however, the deep of the sea (or sea bottom) refers to the perineum, which is your extreme yin point which must feel a receiving connection from the earth in order for the form to be successful.

    as for applications, i've been shown many that correspond with basic sd techniques used within the ed parker's american kenpo techniques i've learned. for instance, the set up just before the right knee strike in Defying the Storm uses the 'left sided' version of this form, and the extension to Fatal Deviation uses it from the 'right side'. (i use left and right half heartedly to get my point across, for as you know tai chi is about becoming a sphere, which has no right and left side... only an inside and outside!).

    come to think of it, your attacker may have used search the needle from deep of the sea to get you to respond with Locking Horns!

    good stuff!

    pete
    Thank you, sir. I appreciate your insights.

    Dan C

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    Default Re: Indexing

    One other quote from a previouse post/thread that I waslooking for:

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan
    Who Influenced Your Journey?
    ...Anise Sensei showed me why what I was doing wouldn't work, then how to do it right. ... The main thrust of the seminar was to show us that what we see or do externally is not the entire picture. It is what happens internally, both with you and your opponent, that sets a martial artist apart from a brawler. ... we were told that the primary objective was to get us to look for the internal in what we do. To analyze it in what others do. ... In four hours I went ouutside my comfort zone, learned to look at martial arts from a whole new perspective, then was returned to my base. ... Since then, I've looked for the "internal" element in what I do.
    I've been intrigued by the "total picture" since this seminar, several years ago. Unfortunately, without a good guide, the "internal" aspects of the arts can be very elusive. As Pete pointed out above (and I bet he only scratched the surface), there is so much more to even this one move than what I can figure out reading books and feeling my way through it. But it is there, I'm convinced, in Kenpo as well.

    Sorry for the digression. But I'm allways a little amazed that more people aren't interested in this aspect of the arts.

    Dan C

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    Default Re: Indexing

    Pete, I have a question for you. I understand that in Taiji, your motion never stops.This refersto the movement in the small muscles in the back, just posterior to the tantien, mostly. But from what I've seen all motion seems to be continuous. However, Chen Taiji has a couple of places in their form (I believe) where they stop motion momentarily.

    Are there instances where, in actual application, you might stop your motion? Does Taiji ever solidify a posture, as we do, where there is a momentary halting of motion- at least externally? Is there anything in Taiji that would correspond to the Kenpo concept of major and minor moves?

    Dan C

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    Default Re: Indexing

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan








    Doc, as you know, I've been comparing what I find in Kenpo to the little I know of Taiji. Also, conversations with you and others here (a small sampling quoted above) have me thinking, and I'm curiouse about your indexing mechanisms. I think I see them both in Taiji and in AK (motion version). Some things just feel right, in ballance and harmoniouse when done properly. I refer to this as internal harmony.

    As an example, take the wrist lock from Crossing Talons and the first move of Locking Horns. I would not have thought of these as sister techniques until I worked out applications for Needle at Sea Bottom (Yang Taiji). But the hand positioning suggest an identical indexing mechanism. Your right wrist turns vertical as it points down, either to position his wrist for the lock or for the ridge hand strike. Your left hand moves above the level of your right, palm down, either for the handsword to his knee or to strike and pin his hand. This just feels structurally sound. Reposition either hand and that structure breaks down.

    It seems to me that one of the major objectives of any martial arts technique is to enhance your structure and ballance while destroying the opponents. This is what I'm thinking your indexing does- it structures your movement and position for maximum strength and harmony. Not just concepts like directional harmony, though that can be a factor. This is an internal harmony. I wish I could explain it better than that it just "feels right," but I'm nowhere near that level of understanding to do more.

    My question, sir, is (as usual), am I on the right track, or off on another tangent? Is this a large part of what indexing does? I will never come close to finding the level of understanding of SL-4 practitioners, but it is interesting and (I think) worthwhile to look at Kenpo from this perspective.

    Dan C
    You're thinking in the right direction. Consider "Anatomical Congruency."
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

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    Default Re: Indexing

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan
    For those not familiar with it:



    One application of this is very similar to Locking Horns, where the left moves across and out to strike his knee and the right spear hand is delivered from the same bent posture as LH. One difference is that, since you are on a weighted right legthe body turns as the spear hand is delivered and the right shoulder becomes a major part of the weapon, moving him off and back. From there, they'd employ something like a shui-jao move (a throw).

    Another application is the joint lock (chin-na) from Crossing Tallons. The footwork is the same, and the basic motion of the hands is similar. From the grab, right hand turns down (very important) into the spear hand configuration as the left pins his hand to your wrist. It still pulls across a little to improve the angular allignment of his wrist and yours for either a counter-grab or hand wrap (every detail is important), which is the next move.

    I got the wrist lock application from a couple of books (which I'd love to reference, but they are not here right now). The similarity to Locking Horns struck me, and I tried it. It worked.
    Yes the hands "Index" as well.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

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    Default Re: Indexing

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan
    One other quote from a previouse post/thread that I waslooking for:



    I've been intrigued by the "total picture" since this seminar, several years ago. Unfortunately, without a good guide, the "internal" aspects of the arts can be very elusive. As Pete pointed out above (and I bet he only scratched the surface), there is so much more to even this one move than what I can figure out reading books and feeling my way through it. But it is there, I'm convinced, in Kenpo as well.

    Sorry for the digression. But I'm allways a little amazed that more people aren't interested in this aspect of the arts.

    Dan C
    I used to be amazed. Not anymore.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

    "It's much easier to quote, than to know." - Ron Chapél


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    Default Re: Indexing

    Ed Parker stressed a major difference in what I come to call SubLevel Four Kenpo. Culturally, some Chinese train from the inside out. Parker taught me to train from the outside in. It's easier to learn and train the body, but it requires a more knowlegeable teacher to make it happen. That was Parker's goal, To creat an "American" style of Chinese Kenpo that could get you to a level of proficiency faster than the traditional.
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    Default Re: Indexing

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc
    You're thinking in the right direction. Consider "Anatomical Congruency." ... Yes the hands "Index" as well.
    Anatomical Congruency would suggest both harmony in movement and position, and possibly similar (congruent) angles and circles. I can see how the harmony I've talked about could be related to congruent angular motion I think.

    Take Alternating Maces (since it is one tech. of the mo.). A couple of ways the hands might use congruent angles to improve anatomical harmony. First, as you step back under force, the right block comes up in a vertical plane into the block, the left more horizontally to check in a zone of obscurity. Both are forward, countering the rearward momentum of the push, both at 45'- which is a state of simultaneouse congruency.

    Next, the right collapses onto his arms as the left punches over. As the right arm adducts, the left abducts in a coordinated move that counterballances itself. The angles of the arms would be complimentary at any given moment in the evolution of this move, right up to the point that the strike whips forward. At that point, you get a reversing effect- a 90' and a 45'. This seems to counterballance as well as adding torque. The process then repeats itself with the left check and right back knuckle.

    I've limmited this to hand/arm positioning, and only a part of that, for simplicities sake. Those relationships probably manifest in almost infinite ways throughout the body in every move. I'd guess that is why you say moving a finger out of place can destroy structure in the entire body.

    If this is what you mean by Anatomical Congruency, sir, it could give a whole new perspective on the Universal Pattern. This one, if I'm on track, could require some thought and meditation.

    Allways appreciate your info, Doc.

    Dan C

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    Default Re: Indexing

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan
    Pete, I have a question for you. I understand that in Taiji, your motion never stops.This refersto the movement in the small muscles in the back, just posterior to the tantien, mostly. But from what I've seen all motion seems to be continuous. However, Chen Taiji has a couple of places in their form (I believe) where they stop motion momentarily.

    Are there instances where, in actual application, you might stop your motion? Does Taiji ever solidify a posture, as we do, where there is a momentary halting of motion- at least externally? Is there anything in Taiji that would correspond to the Kenpo concept of major and minor moves?

    Dan C
    the style of tai chi that i practice originated from the chen family style and was changed to include other elements, including a strong dose of bagua. the hard pounding and seemingly stop and start movements were eliminated, while the coiling and spiraling techniques were accentuated.

    my understanding of tai chi, from my teacher and the style i practice, is the there is no halting of motion, that every part of your body is always in constant motion, like water flowing... one piece of water cannot remain still in a river.

    that beign said, the posture is always solidified while in motion, we do not stop for the kodak moment, but if we did at any point there would be strength in posture and balance.

    when using the forms for self defense applications, there is a subtle point where you learn to feel the opponents loss of center. that is typically the point where you'd change, ending one 'posture' to begin another, but it is done continuously as not to be obvious and feed more information to the opponent than is necessary.

    pete

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    Default Re: Indexing

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan
    Anatomical Congruency would suggest both harmony in movement and position, and possibly similar (congruent) angles and circles. I can see how the harmony I've talked about could be related to congruent angular motion I think.
    Good thinking, but expressing it in physical terms is not as easy as it seems because sometime the movements are counterintuitive.
    I've limmited this to hand/arm positioning, and only a part of that, for simplicities sake. Those relationships probably manifest in almost infinite ways throughout the body in every move. I'd guess that is why you say moving a finger out of place can destroy structure in the entire body.
    correct, and everything is significant, positive or negative.
    If this is what you mean by Anatomical Congruency, sir, it could give a whole new perspective on the Universal Pattern. This one, if I'm on track, could require some thought and meditation.
    "When you begin to think 3 dimensionally, the universal pattern no longer exists, and is replaced by the "Universal Sphere." - Ed Parker

    Although the Universal Pattern/Sphere is a unique teaching aid, human movement relative to its infinite abstract nature becomes less complex and more restrictive.

    "The infinite nature of abstract external movement, pales in comparison to the infinite relationship the human body's many parts have with each other." - Ron Chapél

    This was what, and where Infinite Insights was heading for those willing to make the trip.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

    "It's much easier to quote, than to know." - Ron Chapél


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    Default Re: Indexing

    Quote Originally Posted by pete
    my understanding of tai chi, from my teacher and the style i practice, is the there is no halting of motion, that every part of your body is always in constant motion, like water flowing... one piece of water cannot remain still in a river.

    that beign said, the posture is always solidified while in motion, we do not stop for the kodak moment, but if we did at any point there would be strength in posture and balance.

    when using the forms for self defense applications, there is a subtle point where you learn to feel the opponents loss of center. that is typically the point where you'd change, ending one 'posture' to begin another, but it is done continuously as not to be obvious and feed more information to the opponent than is necessary.
    Thank you, sir. Very interesting and informative.

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    Default Re: Indexing

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc
    Good thinking, but expressing it in physical terms is not as easy as it seems because sometime the movements are counterintuitive.
    Yes, sir. Again, you need a good guide for most of this. And it is difficult to express something you are struggling to figure out.

    "When you begin to think 3 dimensionally, the universal pattern no longer exists, and is replaced by the "Universal Sphere." - Ed Parker

    Although the Universal Pattern/Sphere is a unique teaching aid, human movement relative to its infinite abstract nature becomes less complex and more restrictive.

    "The infinite nature of abstract external movement, pales in comparison to the infinite relationship the human body's many parts have with each other." - Ron Chapél

    This was what, and where Infinite Insights was heading for those willing to make the trip.
    That is sort of what I was getting at. I've contemplated the UP in terms of rotating, and superimposing parts on others. I've looked at both patterns of motion and external structure. Your comments, however, have caused me to think about the minute internal relationships of not only structure- but when you dissect and seperate or distort the pattern to account for missproprioception, my mind is in overload just knowing this relationship exists! Much to digest, sir.

    Dan C

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