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Thread: Chap'el Basic: Extended Outward

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    Default Chap'el Basic: Extended Outward

    When executing an extended outward are you leading with the elbow? I've been trying this out a few times and my rotator is not very happy, but perhaps I was working outside my frame.
    -Camey

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    Default Re: Chap'el Basic: Extended Outward

    grrr makign me think about mechanics...

    umm

    no apparently I don't... my elbow pretty much stays anchored

    palm is face up as it comes across my body and rotates out to the final position
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    Default Re: Chap'el Basic: Extended Outward

    I deffinetly do not lead with my elbow, it stays anchored the whole time. But I do make sure that I stay inside that imaginary box which is from should to shoulder in width and shoulder to knee in length. THis allows for more power for me at least.
    "To hear is to doubt. To see is to be deceived. But to feel is to believe." -- SGM Ed Parker

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    Default Re: Chap'el Basic: Extended Outward

    Utilizing the "conceptual box" is a good habit to have.

    Camey, could you elaborate a little more about what you mean by "leading" with the elbow. I know that usually my elbow is slightly further out (away from my body) due to the position of my palm on the extended outward block than it is on the standard vertical outward block. Is that what you mean? Or is it more like when executing an upward horizontal block where you "flare" your elbow out to generate some tourque?
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Chap'el Basic: Extended Outward

    Yes I use the conceptual box as my base for how far to go in my frame, but when trying to understand the way that Doc recommends executing the extended outward block, I thought that it included leading with the elbow and I may have been coming out side the frame which was hurting my rotator. I'm pretty positive that I do my extended outward blocks like most of you much like floppyears and parkerkarate mention, but I'm trying to understand the difference between our method and the Cha'pel method. I was working w/ Kevin Mills on this a year ago and I thought ( I could be remembering wrong ) that the elbow was leading while circling the fist over the top. He showed it as he was executing a 'custom' technique. I lovingly named it the "King Henry" - if you've met Kevin, you'd know why. I'm having a hard time trying to describe the block exactly. Lemme work on it a min and I'll post a follow-up.
    -Camey

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    Default Re: Chap'el Basic: Extended Outward

    Quote Originally Posted by cameypsaromatis
    Yes I use the conceptual box as my base for how far to go in my frame, but when trying to understand the way that Doc recommends executing the extended outward block, I thought that it included leading with the elbow and I may have been coming out side the frame which was hurting my rotator. I'm pretty positive that I do my extended outward blocks like most of you much like floppyears and parkerkarate mention, but I'm trying to understand the difference between our method and the Cha'pel method. I was working w/ Kevin Mills on this a year ago and I thought ( I could be remembering wrong ) that the elbow was leading while circling the fist over the top. He showed it as he was executing a 'custom' technique. I lovingly named it the "King Henry" - if you've met Kevin, you'd know why. I'm having a hard time trying to describe the block exactly. Lemme work on it a min and I'll post a follow-up.
    Hey Cam remember Vegas what did I show you?

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    Default Re: Chap'el Basic: Extended Outward

    I am going to post on this thread to bring it up to the front. I would like to see the rest of this conversation. Thanks.
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    Default Re: Chap'el Basic: Extended Outward

    Quote Originally Posted by Arizona Angel View Post
    I am going to post on this thread to bring it up to the front. I would like to see the rest of this conversation. Thanks.
    Is there something specific you wanted to discuss concerning this block?
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Chap'el Basic: Extended Outward

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    Is there something specific you wanted to discuss concerning this block?
    It just happens that this is something I was working on last night and was just looking for what everyone had to say in the way of tips.
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    Default Re: Chap'el Basic: Extended Outward

    Camey, the elbow does not lead in this block, as I understand Doc's method- and I will say up front that I could be wrong. But I'll have a go at explaining it a little.

    Start with your blocking hand at your side. Low index the hand, then raise straight up to a high chamber. (I won't describe these, as you were apparently shown them- but they are not the chambering of the average AK school.) From high chamber, thrust the fist forward to an inward blocking position. The fist and arm move from there to a vertical outward blocking position, at which point the fist is over the elbow and therefore the elbow is not in the lead. To do an outward block, simply continue the movement (horrors- I almost said motion) outward until you have the proper blocking configuration.

    Probably the part that is giving you problems is from the inward to the outward block. If you go through the vertical outward on the way to your outward, the elbow moves very little.

    If you get ahold of Doc or some SL-4 folk, let me know how close I am. Meanwhile, maybe this will help some.

    Dan C

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    Default Re: Chap'el Basic: Extended Outward

    Quote Originally Posted by Arizona Angel View Post
    It just happens that this is something I was working on last night and was just looking for what everyone had to say in the way of tips.
    I would be happy to give a few pointers if you like.

    Remember to keep your arm bent at 45 degrees. This is an excellent bracing angle.... just ask any engineer.

    When executing the block keep the conceptual box principle in mind as well as the principle of line of entry. Picture yourself inside a "box". As if you were inside of a refrigerator for instance. If you were in a right neutral bow stance and executing a right extended outward block, the "path" your arm would take would be on a horizontal plane traveling at about a 45 degree angle from the rear left hand corer of the "box" to the right front corner of the "box".

    Hope this helps.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Chap'el Basic: Extended Outward

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan View Post
    Camey, the elbow does not lead in this block, as I understand Doc's method- and I will say up front that I could be wrong. But I'll have a go at explaining it a little.

    Start with your blocking hand at your side. Low index the hand, then raise straight up to a high chamber. (I won't describe these, as you were apparently shown them- but they are not the chambering of the average AK school.) From high chamber, thrust the fist forward to an inward blocking position. The fist and arm move from there to a vertical outward blocking position, at which point the fist is over the elbow and therefore the elbow is not in the lead. To do an outward block, simply continue the movement (horrors- I almost said motion) outward until you have the proper blocking configuration.

    Probably the part that is giving you problems is from the inward to the outward block. If you go through the vertical outward on the way to your outward, the elbow moves very little.

    If you get ahold of Doc or some SL-4 folk, let me know how close I am. Meanwhile, maybe this will help some.

    Dan C
    Close, and I'll defer to Doc should he opt to comment, but I think the only clean-up required is the pre-indexing and "inward block" position. The first position is an upward rising index...akin to an upward block to the front of your body (as opposed to the side), but it stops at collarbone level, palm down, 90-degree angles (or darned close) at all the associated articulations. From here, the forearm rotates outward at the elbow as pivot-point, elbow staying in place. This will position you with what seems to be a very high outward block, as the humerus ought to be parallel to the ground, and the forearm perpendicular. Why so high, as compared to the lower-placed OT blocks in kenpo? Attacks to the head are on a high line, not to the chest...which is where the "traditional" version of the outward block puts you. The standard version also fails easily to pressure from the angle of incidence...you don't really want your blocks caving in on you.

    After you've attained the vertical outward block position, do your stompy thingy and slap check again as you roll the wrist to face the palm away from you...covering only the distance of about one more fist width in the course of travel. This is not a long, travelling outward-extended. It should stay tight to you, firm against strength testing of the entire complex kinematic chain against resistance from the angle of incidence, and is a strategic positioning of the bod and its weapons.

    If I get the digital vidcam I'm hoping to get, I'll try to post what I'm yapping about.

    Best Regards,

    Dave
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    Default Re: Chap'el Basic: Extended Outward

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    Close, and I'll defer to Doc should he opt to comment, but I think the only clean-up required is the pre-indexing and "inward block" position. The first position is an upward rising index...akin to an upward block to the front of your body (as opposed to the side), but it stops at collarbone level, palm down, 90-degree angles (or darned close) at all the associated articulations. From here, the forearm rotates outward at the elbow as pivot-point, elbow staying in place. This will position you with what seems to be a very high outward block, as the humerus ought to be parallel to the ground, and the forearm perpendicular. Why so high, as compared to the lower-placed OT blocks in kenpo? Attacks to the head are on a high line, not to the chest...which is where the "traditional" version of the outward block puts you. The standard version also fails easily to pressure from the angle of incidence...you don't really want your blocks caving in on you.

    After you've attained the vertical outward block position, do your stompy thingy and slap check again as you roll the wrist to face the palm away from you...covering only the distance of about one more fist width in the course of travel. This is not a long, travelling outward-extended. It should stay tight to you, firm against strength testing of the entire complex kinematic chain against resistance from the angle of incidence, and is a strategic positioning of the bod and its weapons.
    Yes, that sounds more like what I was showed. Hope you are able to get your digital camera.
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    Default Re: Chap'el Basic: Extended Outward

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    If I get the digital vidcam I'm hoping to get, I'll try to post what I'm yapping about.
    Thanks for the corrections. I hope you get the vid-cam, I'd like to see this, as I'm having a little trouble following your explanation. But I'll look again tomorrow when it's not so late.

    Dan C

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    Default Re: Chap'el Basic: Extended Outward

    I must have read through Dr Chapel's coursebook description on how to do this block 100 times and never quite got it. After about 1 minute of hands-on instruction I not only got it but I also knew why I didn't get it before 10 seconds of video will probably go a long way here...

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    Default Re: Chap'el Basic: Extended Outward

    There is a video of Doc performing two extended outwards at the same time. Mr. Angel and Mr. Perez then attempt to bend his arm with simultaneous figure fours locks. Needles to say they end up on the ground. It's a great video, let me look for a link.
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    Default Re: Chap'el Basic: Extended Outward

    Here it is. He always looks good.

    http://www.ikenpo.com/structural_integrity.mov

    ENJOY!
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    Default Re: Chap'el Basic: Extended Outward

    Oh yeah! I forgot to mention, that to really believe this you've got to feel it. The first time you correctly apply this movement, you'll feel like superman.
    Negative, I am a meat Popsicle.

    Airdawg

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    Default Re: Chap'el Basic: Extended Outward

    Quote Originally Posted by Airdawg View Post
    There is a video of Doc performing two extended outwards at the same time.
    Thanks. Pretty good.

    Dan C

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    Default Re: Chap'el Basic: Extended Outward

    that clip looked like something out of aikido.

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