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Thread: Limitations of Body Cameras

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    Default Re: Limitations of Body Cameras

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    of all of the things I said, I think you just proved my point. Thanks for the interaction, call it a day.
    lol sorry I reread it and it made sense, guess I was tired.
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    Default Re: Limitations of Body Cameras

    Quote Originally Posted by J-squared View Post
    Now you are just being melodramatic. I assume you are referring to the North Hollywood shootout in 1997? Should we buy APC's for every metropolitan city because of this event? Should we make that expense in equipment, upkeep, storage and continual training? How many more events like this have there been since 1997?
    Is there an opportunity cost? Is there something else you could spend that money on that would save even more police and civilian lives?
    Today, more police have access to more high powered rifles, would that have made a difference in 1997?
    As with all things, mileage may vary. I just thought I would address this part. I am one of 3 of our LESO officers for our department. This is a program that allows law enforcement agencies to obtain military equipment for free. We also had a "rifle buy program" which allowed our deputies to buy their own patrol rifle for use on duty.

    Why? Two main reasons.

    First, our county deals with two main areas of jurisdiction and patrol. We have the very very rural part that is home to a large Michigan militia population and we have had run-ins with well armed "citizens" and frankly we would have been outgunned. Not to mention the large amounts of meth and meth labs we contend with.

    Second, our county literally lies on the plus sign of I-94 and I-69. We are almost the midpoint between Chicago and Detroit and at the crossroads to I-69 to the south. Needless to say, we have a large amount of drugs going through our area. Times have changed, it used to be mules would caravan and have a "set up" vehicle that would kind of stick out to attract the attention of LE and get stopped so the real vehicles could go through. Now, we have recieved intel that says they will not lose a shipment and to engage LEO's with lethal force if necessary.

    Are there departments that go overboard and use their "SWAT" and "ERT/SRT" teams for everything? Yes, there are. But, most agencies don't do this and only want to have some options in place and be prepared for WHEN the worst case happens and allow their officers to go home safely at the end of their shift and to protect as many other people as possible.

    Many things that don't get brought up in the news. I know it has been discussed in here about "pets" before and how police have had to shoot them. But, how many stories do you see that talk about how some of these "pets" are just attack dogs to protect a drug dealers house and are penned in at the entrances to the house? How many news stories do you see that talk about how cribs and babies are put into the entry ways of the drug houses to slow the police down? These are things police deal with daily across the country. The lengths that these criminals will go to in pursuit of their crimes is staggering to the "average" person. Even in talking about these things with some people, they refuse to believe that a criminal would put their own baby in harm's way just so they can flush the drugs and run out the back. Well, as one drug dealer told us when asked, "I've got 3 other kids and I can always have another".
    "For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer."

    Romans 13:4

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    Default Re: Limitations of Body Cameras

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkC View Post
    Can't remember the movie but there was a line in it delivered by an older black guy.. .

    " We all hoes , baby...."
    Don't know who said it, or when, but it was true. The only thing that changes is the price.
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    Default Re: Limitations of Body Cameras

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    Don't know who said it, or when, but it was true. The only thing that changes is the price.
    As long as you are willing to sacrifice your principles, it's true.
    A good teacher is a master of simplification and an enemy of simplism. ~ Louis A. Berman

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    Default Re: Limitations of Body Cameras

    DETROIT, MI — A Special Response Team shattered a family’s window in the middle of the night, hurled a flashbang onto a couch next to a sleeping girl, then charged in and shot her in the head. The hyper-aggressive tactics were made worse by the fact that police had taken it upon themselves to raid both sides of a duplex, when their suspect was only known to reside in one of them.

    * * * * *

    On the evening of May 16, 2010, the Detroit Police Department’s Special Response Team (SRT) prepared for a surprise raid to arrest a wanted man. A surveillance unit had been monitoring the duplex in which he lived throughout the day and a no-knock raid was scheduled for just after midnight.

    Police staged a so-called “safety briefing” shortly before the raid; undoubtedly focusing on their own safety rather than the safety of unknown innocents behind the doors they were about to kick in. Officers were briefed that they’d be entering a “possible dope den,” in which the suspect “might be armed” and might even possess “dangerous dogs.”

    Police neglected to account for — or flatly disregarded — the safety of any potential children that might be present. Besides the glaring presence of toys strewn about the lawn and front porch, it is unlikely that investigators could have missed the presence of four young children and multi-generational family in the opposite unit during their surveillance of the duplex.

    The raid commenced at roughly 12:40 a.m. The Special Response Team arrived in its armored vehicle with a warrant to arrest Chauncey Owens, who was known to stay with his fiancée at 4056 Lillibridge Street.

    Armed with MP5 submachine guns, adrenaline, and an unhealthy fear for officer safety, the raiders shuffled past the toys that littered the front yard and ignored the two distinct street address signs hanging on either side of the shared porch of the multi-unit building; 4056 was on the left, 4054 was on the right.

    The exterior of 4054-4056 Lillibridge Street, where police killed Aiyana Stanley-Jones during a botched raid. Note the toys in the yard and the prominently-displayed address signs. (AP Photo/Carlos Osorio)

    A man named Mark Robinson was detained on the sidewalk while walking his dog, just before the raid. He repeatedly told officers, “There are children in the house,” yet his warnings went unheeded. He was pinned to the ground with officers’ boots on his neck and back, reported attorney Geoffrey Fieger.

    The raid team was accompanied by an embedded cable TV crew, filming for A&E’s “The First 48.” With full bravado, the SRT put on a display of maximum force for the fans of police-state-adoring reality television.

    Without warning, officers simultaneously attempted to breach entrances of two discrete living units of the duplex: the suspects’ location and the neighboring residence. What occurred at 4054 Lillibridge — where the suspect did NOT live — would be devastating.

    In mere seconds, masked police officers stormed the porch and smashed the window of the neighbors’ downstairs apartment. They immediately tossed in a concussion grenade and kicked down the door. An officer discharged his rifle, and an innocent little girl named Aiyana Stanley-Jones was dead.

    Amateur footage shot from the exterior of the building shows how quickly the raid unfolded:

    From the footage above, the following timeline can be assessed:

    0:24 — A dog detects the presence of police and begins to bark.
    0:27 — Police being shouting indiscernibly.
    0:28 — An officer uses a bludgeon to shatter the picture window of Aiyana’s residence. A flashbang grenade is thrown in immediately.
    0:29 — The flashbang explodes inside Aiyana’s residence, lighting up the porch.
    0:33 — A pop can be heard; presumably the fatal gunshot.

    When the smoke cleared, 7-year-old Aiyana Stanley-Jones was found on the couch, covered with blood, with a gunshot to the head. She had been sleeping on the couch next to her grandmother, Mertilla Jones. A mere 3 seconds passed from the time of the first shouts until officers entered the home. Aiyana was shot in six seconds.

    The grenade had fallen directly onto the couch, where it scorched Aiyana’s “Hannah Montana” blanket, and caused Ms. Jones to dive for the floor.

    The moment a flashbang grenade exploded inside Aiyana Stanley-Jones’ living room.

    The trigger man was 37-year-old Officer Joseph Weekley, who both drove the armored personnel carrier and led the team through Jones’s door. Wielding a ballistic shield and an MP5, the 14-year DPD veteran claimed that he lost control of his weapon, but not for the reason one would expect. He blamed Aiyana’s grandma.

    Officer Weekley’s novel defense was that Mertilla Jones rose up as he entered the apartment and “reached for his gun.” In his version of events, contact with grandmother caused him to pull the trigger of his submachine gun, subsequently striking the sleeping girl.

    Mertilla Jones gave a very different account. She said that she had been dozing in and out of sleep on the couch when she was startled by the shattering of glass and the deafening incendiary device hurled through the window. Ms. Jones claims she reached to protect her granddaughter and made no contact with any officer, according to the Detroit Free Press.

    “They blew my granddaughter’s brains out,” said Ms. Jones. “They killed her right before my eyes. I watched the light go out of her eyes.”

    Officer Weekley was no stranger to controversy. Previously during his six years on the Special Response Team, he had been named among several officers in a federal lawsuit regarding no-knock raid in which officers aimed rifles at small children and shot two family pets in 2007
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    Default Re: Limitations of Body Cameras

    You can always find an example of misconduct in any field. Posting one example brings nothing to the discussion. We all agree it happens. The disagreement is on frequency and whether or not it is the "norm." Doctors, lawyers, priests, politicians, airline pilots, firefighters, etc. Who hasn't gotten busted doing something they shouldn't?

    Matching examples is a complete and utter waste of time. We can find them all day long in any profession. So I guess my question to you is, what's your point? Who is a greater threat to your day-to-day well being, your doctor or the police? If you say "police," then when is the last time the police kicked in your door, or beat you up, or stole your property? The statistics say for the vast majority of people in this country who have police contact, the answer is "never." This is not a Police Problem, this is a human problem. If I were you, I'd be far more concerned about the quality of my health care from my doctor, than the police - unless you're a criminal who always finds himself in the wrong place, at the wrong time, doing the wrong thing, but is never responsible for anything. Than the odds go up that you will have a bad experience. The anecdotal stories of, "I was just walking down the street minding my own business when the police came by and beat me up." never seems to hold up under scrutiny. Fortunately, (or unfortunately) most peoples bad experience and disagreement with police, revolves around, and is usually limited to a traffic ticket at worse.

    Posting or citing extreme examples does not represent the true extent of the admitted problem, nor does it give any movement toward a solution. It's just emotional foreplay for a hot button issue that easy to pile on. Hey, how about media misconduct? You know when the media only gives partial information and shapes a story to their own views to drive ratings. How about when they actually alter images, and audio for the same reasons? How about the stuff they don't report? Are the doctors reported below, the "norm," or extreme examples of a system run by people doing the best they can with the resources at their disposal? Could they do better? yeah, we all could. I here I thought we were through with this, especially since everyone already knows "it happens."


    A USA TODAY investigation shows that thousands of doctors who have been banned by hospitals or other medical facilities aren't punished by the state medical boards that license doctors.

    Dr. Greggory Phillips was a familiar figure when he appeared before the Texas Medical Board in 2011 on charges that he'd wrongly prescribed the painkillers that killed Jennifer Chaney.

    The family practitioner already had faced an array of sanctions for mismanaging medications — and for abusing drugs himself. Over a decade, board members had fined him thousands of dollars, restricted his prescription powers, and placed his medical license on probation with special monitoring of his practice. They also let him keep practicing medicine.


    In 2008, a woman in Phillips' care had died from a toxic mix of pain and psychiatric medications he had prescribed. Eleven months later, Chaney died. Yet it took four more years of investigations and negotiations before the board finally barred Phillips from seeing patients, citing medication errors in those cases and "multiple" others.
    "If the board had moved faster, my daughter would still be alive," says Chaney's mother, Bette King, 72. "They knew this doctor had all these problems … (and) they did nothing to stop him." Mari Robinson, executive director of the Texas medical board, says the Phillips case took "longer than normal, but we followed what we needed to do (by law)." Phillips could not be reached for comment.

    Despite years of criticism, the nation's state medical boards continue to allow thousands of physicians to keep practicing medicine after findings of serious misconduct that puts patients at risk, a USA TODAY investigation shows. Many of the doctors have been barred by hospitals or other medical facilities; hundreds have paid millions of dollars to resolve malpractice claims. Yet their medical licenses — and their ability to inflict harm — remain intact. But state and federal records still paint a grim picture of a physician oversight system that often is slow to act, quick to excuse problems, and struggling to manage workloads in an era of tight state budgets.

    USA TODAY reviewed records from multiple sources, including the public file of the National Practitioner Data Bank, a federal repository set up to help medical boards track physicians' license records, malpractice payments, and disciplinary actions imposed by hospitals, HMOs and other institutions that manage doctors. By law, reports must be filed with the Data Bank when any of the nation's 878,000 licensed doctors face "adverse actions" — and the reports are intended to be monitored closely by medical boards.

    The research shows:

    • Doctors disciplined or banned by hospitals often keep clean licenses: From 2001 to 2011, nearly 6,000 doctors had their clinical privileges restricted or taken away by hospitals and other medical institutions for misconduct involving patient care. But 52% — more than 3,000 doctors — never were fined or hit with a license restriction, suspension or revocation by a state medical board.

    • Even the most severe misconduct goes unpunished: Nearly 250 of the doctors sanctioned by health care institutions were cited as an "immediate threat to health and safety," yet their licenses still were not restricted or taken away. About 900 were cited for substandard care, negligence, incompetence or malpractice — and kept practicing with no licensure action.

    • Doctors with the worst malpractice records keep treating patients: Among the nearly 100,000 doctors who made payments to resolve malpractice claims from 2001 to 2011, roughly 800 were responsible for 10% of all the dollars paid and their total payouts averaged about $5.2 million per doctor. Yet fewer than one in five faced any sort of licensure action by their state medical boards.

    The numbers raise red flags for several experts in physician oversight, including David Swankin, head of the Citizen Advocacy Center, which works to make state medical boards more effective. Not all doctors who lose clinical privileges or pay multiple malpractice claims necessarily should lose their licenses. In some malpractice cases, doctors or insurers may settle without admitting fault to avoid potentially expensive litigation.

    DECADES OF CONCERN

    Concerns about medical boards' accountability date to 1986. That year, the Inspector General at the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services reported that the boards, typically comprising doctors and a lesser number of laypeople, imposed "strikingly few disciplinary actions" for physician misconduct. Several follow-up studies suggested improvements, but the reviews ended in the early 1990s after the Justice Department declared that an Inspector General would have no jurisdiction over state boards that are not funded or regulated by the federal government.

    "If (medical boards) don't have proper oversight, patients will get hurt and taxpayers will get hurt," says Iowa Sen. Chuck Grassley, senior Republican on the Senate Finance Committee, which handles Medicare and Medicaid.(Photo: Cliff Owen, AP)

    Early last year, Grassley and a bipartisan group of senators asked the Inspector General for a "comprehensive evaluation" of state medical boards' performance. But there's been no report, and the IG's 2013 work plan doesn't mention it.

    Concerns about the boards resurfaced in a 2011 study by consumer watchdog group Public Citizen. The report was based on the same National Practitioner Data Bank records reviewed by USA TODAY, and it reached a similar conclusion: Medical boards "are not properly acting on (clinical privilege) reports after becoming aware of them."
    Yet little has changed since Public Citizen's assessment — and the congressional concern it created. Physicians with records of serious misconduct are clearly still practicing:

    • A California doctor made eight payments totaling about $2.1 million to resolve malpractice claims from 1991 to 2008. The doctor's hospital privileges were restricted twice in 2007, once for misconduct that posed an "immediate threat to health or safety" of patients, and surrendered for good in 2008. No action has been taken against the doctor's license.


    • A Florida doctor made six payments totaling about $1.1 million to resolve malpractice claims from 1993 to 2009. In 2004, the doctor was hit with an emergency suspension of hospital privileges for misconduct that posed an "immediate threat to health or safety" of patients, and a managed care organization took similar action in 2005. He also kept a clean license.


    • A Louisiana doctor made nine payments totaling about $2.7 million to resolve malpractice claims from 1992 to 2007, and at least five payments involved patient deaths, including two young girls. In 2008, a managed care organization indefinitely denied the doctor's clinical privileges. But the doctor's license remains unrestricted.


    The doctors' names are a mystery: identifying information is stripped from the Data Bank's public file. Full access is limited to medical boards, hospitals and other institutions that are supposed to weed out bad doctors.

    But the tracking system doesn't always work.





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    Default Re: Limitations of Body Cameras

    "You can always find an example of misconduct in any field. Posting one example brings nothing to the discussion. We all agree it happens. The disagreement is on frequency and whether or not it is the "norm." Doctors, lawyers, priests, politicians, airline pilots, firefighters, etc. Who hasn't gotten busted doing something they shouldn't?

    Matching examples is a complete and utter waste of time. We can find them all day long in any profession. So I guess my question to you is, what's your point? Who is a greater threat to your day-to-day well being, your doctor or the police? If you say "police," then when is the last time the police kicked in your door, or beat you up, or stole your property? The statistics say for the vast majority of people in this country who have police contact, the answer is "never." This is not a Police Problem, this is a human problem. If I were you, I'd be far more concerned about the quality of my health care from my doctor, than the police - unless you're a criminal who always finds himself in the wrong place, at the wrong time, doing the wrong thing, but is never responsible for anything. Than the odds go up that you will have a bad experience. The anecdotal stories of, "I was just walking down the street minding my own business when the police came by and beat me up." never seems to hold up under scrutiny. Fortunately, (or unfortunately) most peoples bad experience and disagreement with police, revolves around, and is usually limited to a traffic ticket at worse."



    ------------------------------------------------------

    I think the point is that a body cam would be useful in ascertaining if the grandma really touched the officer at all or simply reached for her grandchild before the cop executed the child.
    ~Sami Ibrahim

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    Default Re: Limitations of Body Cameras

    Lets try to avoid thread drift the subject is cops and and body cams not doctors
    ~Sami Ibrahim

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    Default Re: Limitations of Body Cameras

    Can't Even Walk The Streets Anymore: Pedestrian Attacked By Police, Framed & Then Sent To Jail For 15 Months! (Wins $1 Million Lawsuit) | New Video


    As for the story about walking down the street minding your own business and I quote "The anecdotal stories of, "I was just walking down the street minding my own business when the police came by and beat me up." never seems to hold up under scrutiny. "
    may not be so anecdotal...
    ~Sami Ibrahim

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    Default Limitations of Body Cameras

    We're far adrift from discussing Kenpo here, folks. There's a lot of leeway given to hosted forums, but we are still far beyond the focus of KenpoTalk. Politics has been traditionally been avoided on this forum. If we can't tie this discussion back to martial arts, then it's time to let it go.
    Be careful what you say, some may take it the wrong way.

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    Default Re: Limitations of Body Cameras

    Quote Originally Posted by jdinca View Post
    We're far adrift from discussing Kenpo here, folks. There's a lot of leeway given to hosted forums, but we are still far beyond the focus of KenpoTalk. Politics has been traditionally been avoided on this forum. If we can't tie this discussion back to martial arts, then it's time to let it go.
    It is Kenpo. It is the attitude of an organization. The physical and psychological arrangement of its parts in relation to governing itself.

    To be more constructive, what organization would you all say has the lowest amount of fraud? Or the least harmful fraud?

    I have read stories of firefighters claiming disability and then entering bodybuilding contests, while on disability. Costs money and harms the image, but pretty low on the Richter scale.
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    Default Re: Limitations of Body Cameras

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    You can always find an example of misconduct in any field. Posting one example brings nothing to the discussion. We all agree it happens. The disagreement is on frequency and whether or not it is the "norm." Doctors, lawyers, priests, politicians, airline pilots, firefighters, etc. Who hasn't gotten busted doing something they shouldn't?
    Well, you provided one example in your previous post from the North Hollywood shootout which happened in 1997, so I thought one counter example would be OK.

    Since the 1997 shootout, and since 9/11 many individual officers have become better armed, and swat teams have become better armed, I really have no problem with that. Police agencies learned from that event, reacted to it, and invested in equipment and training since that event. However, has the pendulum started to swing too far that way?

    Fast forward to 2010, 13 years, and this one event happens. What have the police departments learned form it? What investments and changes have they made to keep it from reoccurring?
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    Default Re: Limitations of Body Cameras

    Maybe we should put body cameras on doctors? Oh wait, I think they call that a colonoscopy
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    Default Re: Limitations of Body Cameras

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenposoldier01 View Post
    I think the point is that a body cam would be useful in ascertaining if the grandma really touched the officer at all or simply reached for her grandchild before the cop executed the child.
    Not conclusive depending on placement, but it would probably help.

    That is one thing I like about our tasers. They have a built in audio/video camera when you activate them. When you are pointing the taser at the subject, it shows what they are doing.
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    Default Re: Limitations of Body Cameras

    Since I live in Metro Detroit I followed the Weekly trials. So far he has had two hung juries. His claim is the grandmother made him do it and not accidental discharge.
    I have regularly trained with two of the officer from Detroit's SRT team, one took a leave of absence a little before this incident, the other is now retired. Both will tell you accidental discharges don't happen at that level, which many say is why he has to vilify the grandmother. As Wayne County decides whether to try him for a third time or not, he'll collect his pension while the little girl's family places flowers on her grave.

    and since Doc complained I only had one example...

    High School Student, Forced to the Ground at Gun Point for Not Wearing Seat Belt


    Waycross, GA — High school senior and community role model, Montre` Merritt’s life was forever changed the night he was thrown to the ground and held at gun point in his own driveway by an overzealous police officer.
    On January 18, Merritt was pulling into his driveway when a Waycross police officer pulled up behind him and jumped out of his cruiser, pistol drawn.
    Merritt was then forced to the ground with the gun pointed at his head, and handcuffed.
    Hearing the commotion in the front yard, Merritt’s mother came outside. She asked the officer why her son was lying on the ground in cuffs with a gun pointed at him, and the officer told her that Merritt was driving without his seat belt on.
    Immediately following this ridiculous excessive force and violation of rights, Merritt filed a complaint with the Waycross police department.
    According to the chief of the department, Officer Cory Gay was found guilty of using excessive force, and he was suspended for five days without pay. Gay was then ordered to take Judgmental Use of Force Training. But Merritt’s family said that’s not enough and Thursday they filed a multi-million dollar lawsuit against the department.
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    Default Re: Limitations of Body Cameras

    and since Doc complained I only had one example...
    The disingenuous sentence above, (or at the least an example of poor reading comprehension) distorts my position on the discussion. In a media world that promotes and focuses on these things, finding examples has never been a problem. But, then I've already said that and made my position known and I put up the stats to support my position. I only put up the piece about doctors to illustrate you can find examples about ANY profession if you want to. But then, that doesn't further the discussion or help solve the problem, neither of which seems to be the goal here. Your position is known, and you're entitled to it no matter how wrong it may be. Posting examples doesn't prove your point, only that on some level it exists. But then, everyone already knew that. What's that old say; "Facts to some people are like kryptonite to Superman." So, they ignore them, and just keep ranting while mischaracterizing what you said. I know what comes next.
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    Default Re: Limitations of Body Cameras

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoMD View Post
    Maybe we should put body cameras on doctors? Oh wait, I think they call that a colonoscopy
    Doctors have it just as bad. When people don't get the outcome they seek, it must be the doctors fault. Sometimes bad things happen, but when you look at doctor patient contact numbers, and the number of complaints and "mistakes," it is within human tolerance levels. Doctors don't have all the answers, they have some of the answers. They just have more answers than the rest of us. And if some think otherwise, than they can seek out some of the quacks when they need to be treated. Oh wait, they already do.
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    Default Re: Limitations of Body Cameras

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenposoldier01 View Post
    Lets try to avoid thread drift the subject is cops and and body cams not doctors
    Its not thread drift. Stay on point.
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    Default Re: Limitations of Body Cameras

    A Chief Speaks his mind.

    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

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    Default Re: Limitations of Body Cameras

    Quote Originally Posted by J-squared View Post

    My perception, is that support from socio-economic and socio-geographic groups that traditionally supported the police unconditionally has decreased. That there have been too many incidents that have taken withdrawals from the public goodwill bank. I know a lot of this is because people only post or report the bad things, and not the good things, but the perception is there.

    The way I see it, if we stay on this course, we could be in for a real mess. It won't be immediate, it may take a couple more decades, but I can see it. With less pent up goodwill, there will be less support for the police. People will be quicker to riot or engage. The police will naturally do what their procedures say and what they are trained to do, which will escalate the crowd and in turn escalate the police, until all the goodwill is gone, and no one trusts the other. That's not what I want to see happen.
    So many police killed in the line of duty recently, it makes me both sad and angry. I did not think we would have cowardly ambushing of peace officers like what happened in Texas.
    I still think it'll get worse yet before it gets better.
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