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Thread: Thundering Hammers (in Motion)

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    Default Thundering Hammers (in Motion)

    Sir, I am copying this and reposting from the Technique of the Month forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc
    Consider sir, that if you force his hand outside you will not control his width and expose yourself to a possible second punch. This will also take a considerable elngth of time relatively speaking and void your opportunity to 'borrow' his forwrd momentum to aid in your initial strike. Finally, placing his arm on the outside increases his offensive options with his right hand, now added to his left.

    The answer to the problem is to ACCEPT the pinning of the arm, but utilize it in your favor.
    Doc, I havn't worked this yet using your suggestion with a partner. I have been running this through in the air and in my head, and may have the opportunity to work it this evening. I want to make sure I have the dummies reactions right before then.

    Dummy steps in with right foot and punches with right hand. His momentum and the block to his right arm induce a small ccw rotation that weights his right foot.

    Strike to abdomen bends him forward, further weighting and anchoring his right foot. Natural reaction is to grab his gut & pin your right arm with both his arms. (You allow this to occur.) His right knee is checked hard by your right knee, and buckled since it was anchored. This creates a severe disruption in his ballance.

    You go to a right close kneel, and the pivot of the stance change and his pin of your arm creates a short cw body rotation, based around his anchored and buckled right leg. It should also bring his right kidney into position for the left hammerfist strike. This strike should arch his back and bring his head up and a little right. His butt should also drop, similar to a groin strike reaction. His pin of your right arm should also loosen.

    Left immediately goes to check his right arm, and can aid in freeing your right if necessary. Your right arm pulls free as you pivot into a left wide kneel and right hammerfist to his left kidney. This should drop him to his knees and over forward.

    Corrections? Suggestions? All I have invested right now is air time (on the floor and in my head). I'd appreciate corrections before I take this to work with partners.

    As allways, sir, your posts cause me to think and re-evaluate what I'm doing. It sometimes flusters my partners, but I enjoy it.

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    Default Re: Thundering Hammers (in Motion)

    Well, I did work a little on Thundering Hammers tonight. If I got the reactions right (the general consensus was that I did), the technique seemed to work as I thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan
    You go to a right close kneel, and the pivot of the stance change and his pin of your arm creates a short cw body rotation, based around his anchored and buckled right leg. It should also bring his right kidney into position for the left hammerfist strike. This strike should arch his back and bring his head up and a little right. His butt should also drop, similar to a groin strike reaction. His pin of your right arm should also loosen.
    A lot of people on this forum attack other targets than the kidneys. We were looking, and another interesting target is the Ming Min Point in the lumbar spine. What would be the effect of striking here? Should arch his back, but not turn to the side as a kidney strike would? I believe this is a cavity strike- would there be other effects?

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    Default Re: Thundering Hammers (in Motion)

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan
    Sir, I am copying this and reposting from the Technique of the Month forum.



    Doc, I havn't worked this yet using your suggestion with a partner. I have been running this through in the air and in my head, and may have the opportunity to work it this evening. I want to make sure I have the dummies reactions right before then.

    Dummy steps in with right foot and punches with right hand. His momentum and the block to his right arm induce a small ccw rotation that weights his right foot.

    Strike to abdomen bends him forward, further weighting and anchoring his right foot. Natural reaction is to grab his gut & pin your right arm with both his arms. (You allow this to occur.)
    I think we need to eamine well, and get past the initial action of blocking, striking, and recovering the arm first. I need your specific thoughts please as to why you feel your description will be/is functional.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

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    Default Re: Thundering Hammers (in Motion)

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc
    "Dummy steps in with right foot and punches with right hand. His momentum and the block to his right arm induce a small ccw rotation that weights his right foot.

    Strike to abdomen bends him forward, further weighting and anchoring his right foot. Natural reaction is to grab his gut & pin your right arm with both his arms. (You allow this to occur.)"


    I think we need to eamine well, and get past the initial action of blocking, striking, and recovering the arm first. I need your specific thoughts please as to why you feel your description will be/is functional.
    Since you only quoted the bold part of the tech discription, I assume that is the part you are asking about. I can't give you the technical description and terms, but I can tell you what I feel when I simulate the attack. I'll describe it from a street fighters/immitated boxers stance, as this is the method that the effect is most notable with.

    When the opponent steps and punches from a natural stance to a boxers stance, even without your block, there is a rebound effect felt in the right hip. The effect is felt more if the punch is a jab, but even as a thrust it can be felt. It starts with the weight transfer to the right foot as he steps in. The forward momentum of the punch adds to this transfer. The right foot, in addition to taking the weight transfer, has to arrest this momentum. Then the tendency is to adjust the weight distribution, which causes the foot to push back. Curiously, this push is not felt in line with the pelvic girdle, but rather at an angle similar to a posterior dislocation of the hip (not enough force to cause this, just similar). This induces a rotational force on the pelvic girdle which effects the entire structure.

    Now, when I tried this steping through to a good neutral bow, I felt the same effect, but not near as pronounced. If I hadn't been concentrating on finding it, I doubt I'd have noticed. I remember in the article we'd talked about previously that stomping the heel of the last foot to move was mentioned. I tried this- as the front foot landed I stomped the heel of my left. It seemed to work. I didn't feel the rebound or the torque in my hips. But I may have floated some as I steped. I have no idea if this is a proper application of the method, but as long as we're experimenting...

    At any rate, whether you block or not; and whether your block catches his arm on the way in or out, he's going to have a slight rotation and weighting of the front (right) foot. The block will enhance this effect, but he does most of the work for you.

    Next, the strike to the abdomen. He probably exhaled and tightened his abdomen when he punched. As you move and block, he is starting to relax the abs a little, maybe even breathe. Your strike comes from an obscure zone, so he probably won't pick up on it. It has your momentum and mass, and a lot of torque into it. His gut is going to spasm and the pain will bend him forward from the hips. He'll grab your striking arm, as you siad, just from the natural reflex of going to the pain.

    Most of the rest of the technique is simple body mechanics and targeting. Which is probably why you didn't ask about them, I'm guessing.

    I hope this is what you were looking for, sir. I also hope I'm right, but it's all learnin' either way. Thank you for taking the time and effort.

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    Default Re: Thundering Hammers (in Motion)

    (I don't see an edit function on this new format, so I'll have to post again.)

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan
    When the opponent steps and punches from a natural stance to a boxers stance, even without your block, there is a rebound effect felt in the right hip. The effect is felt more if the punch is a jab, but even as a thrust it can be felt. It starts with the weight transfer to the right foot as he steps in. The forward momentum of the punch adds to this transfer. The right foot, in addition to taking the weight transfer, has to arrest this momentum. Then the tendency is to adjust the weight distribution, which causes the foot to push back. Curiously, this push is not felt in line with the pelvic girdle, but rather at an angle similar to a posterior dislocation of the hip (not enough force to cause this, just similar). This induces a rotational force on the pelvic girdle which effects the entire structure.
    I should add that this break in structure is crucial in allowing you to dominate his centerline. Your block on a well structured striking arm and torsoe would just turn his centerline ccw. He could react to that any number of ways. But if his hips are trying to rotate cw and you are turning his torsoe ccw, he is confused internally. The body will react to counter any force directed at its' center (a point, not a line), no matter how small the force, especially if acted on through the center line. Even a percieved force can unballance and confuse him enough to topple the opponent without touching him.

    Now, when I tried this steping through to a good neutral bow, I felt the same effect, but not near as pronounced.
    A note here- this only applies when steping forward from a natural stance. I didn't feel this disconnect when steping through forward from a left neutral bow to a right neutral bow.

    Doc, I have to warn you, sir, that I'm an ex Emergency Medical Technician, and worse- a volunteer! Every EMT holds somewhere close to his heart a burning ambition to be a doctor! We have a tendency to drive the hospital staff nutts with questions and diagnoses (which we never do in the field. But when the run is done, all betts are off). Point is, if this gets to be a waste of your time, let me know. Wouldn't be the first time I went overboard.

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    Default Re: Thundering Hammers (in Motion)

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan
    I should add that this break in structure is crucial in allowing you to dominate his centerline. Your block on a well structured striking arm and torsoe would just turn his centerline ccw.
    You're over thinking a relatively simple problem sir. But I like it. The attack should be essentially a staight punch for this scenario. The right foot will indeed be 'loaded' but your initial block controlling the width, will open nerve cavities on the centerline for your initial strike.

    Your problem as I see it, is your understnding of the reaxtion of your attacker. Being struck across the midline of the body and impacting floating ribs and the strenum, will not yield an initial 'bending over reaction.' The body tends to collapse upon itself and any 'bending over' action is at best secondary. Keep in mind that 'bending over' and achieving the 'bent over positon' are not the same thing.

    After the strike and inconjunction with the reaction, the armas will retreat to the thorax to instinctively protect the torso. Once the arm are in this postion it is near impossible one on one to remove the arms from this postion.

    I suggest you carry out the experiment I outlined before we go any further, but we are on track sir.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

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    Default Re: Thundering Hammers (in Motion)

    "You're over thinking a relatively simple problem sir."

    That sounds like me, alright.

    "The attack should be essentially a staight punch for this scenario. The right foot will indeed be 'loaded' but your initial block controlling the width, will open nerve cavities on the centerline for your initial strike."

    Here is where my knowlege falls short. I'm probably missing something in his reaction, as you've outlined here.

    "Your problem as I see it, is your understnding of the reaxtion of your attacker. Being struck across the midline of the body and impacting floating ribs and the strenum, will not yield an initial 'bending over reaction.' The body tends to collapse upon itself and any 'bending over' action is at best secondary. Keep in mind that 'bending over' and achieving the 'bent over positon' are not the same thing. After the strike and inconjunction with the reaction, the armas will retreat to the thorax to instinctively protect the torso. Once the arm are in this postion it is near impossible one on one to remove the arms from this postion."

    We strike the abdomen, and I've always been taught that he will bend. But if he caves and drops his butt instead it definately changes everything. As you rotate your stance and change the knee check, the pull that your pined arm has on him would be even more enhanced because you are his ballance- that pined arm would be helping him stay up.

    "I suggest you carry out the experiment I outlined before we go any further, but we are on track sir."

    Actually, I did, but with the wrong reaction as discussed here. One of my partners (I discovered) is a forum member here, so I'll get him to read this and then we'll try it again.

    And again, sir, thank you for your time.

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    Default Re: Thundering Hammers (in Motion)

    Just got back from trying this. Green_blur dummied and I hit him a few different ways, but hard enough to see what his reaction would be.

    Across the lower thoracic region, fist targeting the left floating rib, he rocked back on his heels and droped his butt. He thought that with a harder strike and knee check he'd have went over backwards.

    Across the abdomen he did tend to bend over.

    Power was best when I targeted higher and did the push drag forward, block and strike as one move. The lower strike didn't seem to be as efficient, but did get me out of the way of the punch better.

    Having him drop and hold onto my arm instead of bending over and holding didn't work as good as I thought. I was able to move him with my stance change, but really no better than bending. And, his weight was dragging my arm down more from the cave and squat, so my structure had to be good or I was pulled off ballance a little.

    Having him squat and then striking a kidney and arching his back, the neck or collar bone are better targets than another kidney strike.

    That's what we got out of the experiment. Anything else we should try or look for sir? It may take a while though- the greenie has a few interesting welts that he may want to heal up first!

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