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Thread: Kenpo Ground Fighting System

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    Default Kenpo Ground Fighting System

    I seem to recall in about 2001 or 2002 I was reading a martial arts magazine with an interview with Ed Parker Jr where he was talking about the different protoge students of his father and he mentioned that this father had develpoed a ground fighting system and that this individual (don't recall the name or if it was mentioned) was teaching it in So Cal somewhere. Anyone out there that can shed some light on this. As a Shodan in Judo, and a Shodan of what was originally kenpo jujitsu I imagine Parker would have a good understaning of this range and could have easly have developed one.
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    Default Re: Kenpo Ground Fighting System

    Quote Originally Posted by journey View Post
    I seem to recall in about 2001 or 2002 I was reading a martial arts magazine with an interview with Ed Parker Jr where he was talking about the different protoge students of his father and he mentioned that this father had develpoed a ground fighting system and that this individual (don't recall the name or if it was mentioned) was teaching it in So Cal somewhere. Anyone out there that can shed some light on this. As a Shodan in Judo, and a Shodan of what was originally kenpo jujitsu I imagine Parker would have a good understaning of this range and could have easly have developed one.
    Edmund was referring to me, however it was not about a "ground fighting system" in Kenpo. It was about 'manipulation options and implications in kenpo.' Ed Parker came from a Judo then Jiujitsu background, and it is very much a part of his more sophisticated teachings. However, although it is 'hinted' at in his commercial system, it is not specifically a part of the system, except for those teachers who already had it in their background, or have sought to infuse external information.

    Parker expressed that ground fighting was actually fairly simplistic when the rules of modern sport applications are removed in favor of street viability. What changes is when all of the rules of the ring are removed, and then grappling horizontally becomes least likely than some might think.

    Parker felt that the sophistication aspect of manipulations was to be learned on the vertical plane, over the horizontal.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

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    Default Re: Kenpo Ground Fighting System

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    Ed Parker came from a Judo then Jiujitsu background, and it is very much a part of his more sophisticated teachings.
    Where do we find these more sophisticated teachings? Who were taught them? What do they consist of?

    Kenpo Gary
    "The heart of the Kenpo System has always been practical-effective- Self Defense Techniques." Al Tracy

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    Default Re: Kenpo Ground Fighting System

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    ...it is 'hinted' at in his commercial system
    For those of us only familiar with his commercial system, where specifically is it hinted at. Thanks

    Kenpo Gary
    "The heart of the Kenpo System has always been practical-effective- Self Defense Techniques." Al Tracy

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    Default Re: Kenpo Ground Fighting System

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpo Gary View Post
    For those of us only familiar with his commercial system, where specifically is it hinted at. Thanks

    Kenpo Gary
    Try every technique where you are pushed, pulled, seized, hugged, held, and locked. No where in the commercial system are the attacks or the defenses actually taught or even discussed.

    Big Hint:

    A simple technique like "Twisted Twig" is a flank wrist-flex takedown throw. The attacker seizes the wrist and hand, manipulates and throws to a takedown. Defensively you must Survive this action first, and then counter manipulate it to a successful conclusion.

    Of course in motion kenpo, most teach, "move first" because they don't have the knowledge. They also don't teach the attack, and students end up "handing their hand" to the attacker to simulate the approximate position. Well that's actually a good idea, unless you really want to develop skills to counter manipulations, as well as be able to defend yourself in the instances where you can't or don't "move first" and an attacker actually knows how to attack you with the manipulations.

    We spend as much time on the attack as the defense on all techniques, but especially these type to insure realistic attacks and workable counters.

    If you count all of the techniques in the commercial system that are pushes, grabs, hugs, holds, and locks, you'll find they are about 70% of the "system." This reflects the heavy jiujitsu/judo influence the motion system was derived from, and the information that cannot be addressed in a motion based concept.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

    "It's much easier to quote, than to know." - Ron Chapél


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    Default Re: Kenpo Ground Fighting System

    excellent answer...

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    Default Re: Kenpo Ground Fighting System

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    Parker expressed that ground fighting was actually fairly simplistic when the rules of modern sport applications are removed in favor of street viability. What changes is when all of the rules of the ring are removed, and then grappling horizontally becomes least likely than some might think.
    Beautifully articulated!!!
    As much sense as this makes, this is one of the most difficult concepts to get across when addressing a jiu-jitsu crowd.
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    Default Re: Kenpo Ground Fighting System

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    If you count all of the techniques in the commercial system that are pushes, grabs, hugs, holds, and locks, you'll find they are about 70% of the "system." This reflects the heavy jiujitsu/judo influence the motion system was derived from, and the information that cannot be addressed in a motion based concept.
    Would it therefore be productive for Kenpo folks to study more jujitsu, to help and glean it from the commercial base?

    Kenpo Gary
    "The heart of the Kenpo System has always been practical-effective- Self Defense Techniques." Al Tracy

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    Default Re: Kenpo Ground Fighting System

    Quote Originally Posted by toejoe2k View Post
    Beautifully articulated!!!
    As much sense as this makes, this is one of the most difficult concepts to get across when addressing a jiu-jitsu crowd.
    I have a associate sir, who has rank in jiujitsu, and he is quite good. In fact he is very good, but his whole life has been dedicated to a jiujitsu perspective. While he hasn't gone completely off the deep end because he comes from 'real jiujitsu,' (Dan Zan Ryu) not sport (Brazilian judo/jiujitsu), he still only works from their perspective. When I attack a problem, I look at it open minded as I was taught, with a desire to utilize whatever tool in my toolbox fits the situation. He however, sees everything as a twist, lock, throw submit, solution with an emphasis on pain compliance and joint destruction.

    My teacher always said, "If the only tool you have in your toolbox is a hammer, than every problem will always look like a nail."

    So-called modern jiujitsu and grapplers (aka sport) are very good at what they do, and they should be. They bring a measure of reality to their art that demands physical function first. Takedowns are not hypothetical. Submissions are not hypothetical. I commend them for this reality and it would not hurt to have a healthy dose in other martial areas. But if you want to see real grappling, look at Gene LeBell.

    As you already know, to allow the training of most judo/jiujitsu, they remove all of the things that are not conducive to their goal of training whether it be in-school or open competition. The exclusion of other 'illegal' maneuvers at cross purpose to 'training' significantly clouds reality of street combat. Would you 'shoot' for someone's legs on the street IF you knew that if you were unsuccessful, he could stomp you on the back on your neck until he gets tired? What locks would you attempt if you knew that the guy was free to put his fingers deep in your eye sockets, or gnash and bite the crap out of whatever was near his mouth. Would you do it if there was a crowd waiting for you to tie yourself up so they could stomp you?

    Let's see;

    No hair pulling
    No biting,
    No slashing or scratching
    No eye attacks
    No throat attacks
    No kicking against the joints
    No small joint manipulations
    No spitting
    No groin attacks
    No spine attacks
    etc.

    I watched Gracie win? a match over Kimo because they ignored a rule and allowed him to pull his hair.

    When you train from a perspective that removes a huge chunk of physical attacks you are likely to see in a street encounter, so that you can train the other things you like, then you are fooling yourself. As Mr. Parker said, "That list sounds to me like where the real fight is." Or as Gene LeBell said to me, "Ron, those are all my favorite things."
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

    "It's much easier to quote, than to know." - Ron Chapél


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    Default Re: Kenpo Ground Fighting System

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpo Gary View Post
    Would it therefore be productive for Kenpo folks to study more jujitsu, to help and glean it from the commercial base?

    Kenpo Gary
    It wouldn't hurt, as long as it's not the competition variety.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

    "It's much easier to quote, than to know." - Ron Chapél


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    Default Re: Kenpo Ground Fighting System

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpo Gary View Post
    Would it therefore be productive for Kenpo folks to study more jujitsu, to help and glean it from the commercial base?

    Kenpo Gary
    I found it useful to take some BJJ lessons. Which were a heck of a lot of fun, some very hard work, and almost no help at all while on my feet. However, should I be taken down (by an attacker, the environment, or my own ineptitude) I will then have some options that my study of Shaolin Kempo did not provide.

    Japanese JJ may do more for your stand-up grappling than BJJ did for me.

    Also, "sport grappling" is a LOT of fun, and makes for an exciting new arena for your sparring if you do that kind of thing.
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    Default Re: Kenpo Ground Fighting System

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    I I watched Gracie win? a match over Kimo because they ignored a rule and allowed him to pull his hair.
    Actually in that UFC, that there was no rule against hair pulling.

    There was also no rule against groin shots, see Keith Hackney win in UFC 4 with repeated punches to the groin. He lost his next match to Royce Gracie. Guess the magic groin shots didn't help him against a better competitor.

    Stomping was allowed, watch Zane Frazier (kenpo) at the end of the first match of UFC 1 getting stomped by Kevin Rosier. Stomping is still allowed in Pride.

    Actually the only thing outlawed in the early UFCs was eye shots and biting.

    When the wrestlers keyed into the UFC, they were the ones on top elbowing and headbutting. Somehow their shoots worked despite the threat of "stomps."

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    Default Re: Kenpo Ground Fighting System

    Quote Originally Posted by Blindside View Post
    Actually in that UFC, that there was no rule against hair pulling.

    There was also no rule against groin shots, see Keith Hackney win in UFC 4 with repeated punches to the groin. He lost his next match to Royce Gracie. Guess the magic groin shots didn't help him against a better competitor.

    Stomping was allowed, watch Zane Frazier (kenpo) at the end of the first match of UFC 1 getting stomped by Kevin Rosier. Stomping is still allowed in Pride.

    Actually the only thing outlawed in the early UFCs was eye shots and biting.

    When the wrestlers keyed into the UFC, they were the ones on top elbowing and headbutting. Somehow their shoots worked despite the threat of "stomps."

    Lamont
    I quoted the rules as I saw them when they were passed out by the Gracie's, who at the time owned the UFC. I stand by the fact they ignored some of their own rules. Either way the tone of the discussion was specific relative to rules and competition versus the exclusion of the same in the street, and how it affects ones choices.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

    "It's much easier to quote, than to know." - Ron Chapél


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