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Thread: Teach the Master Key Techniques first???

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    Default Teach the Master Key Techniques first???

    Ok I just had a thought and wanted to ask it here more geared in the direction of the instructors of the forums but anyone can chime in with their .02.

    I wanted to ask if it makes sense to maybe teach the Master Key Techniques first. Once the student has the basics like stances, blocks, strikes and such rather than follow a per belt plan. Would it maybe benefit the student to learn the master key techs first, not the entire family grouping but just the master keys then go back and work the family groups of each? Seems like a good foundation to build off of but what do you think?
    A black belt covers 2" of your butt. Covering the rest is soley up to you

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    Default Re: Teach the Master Key Techniques first???

    Quote Originally Posted by hemi View Post
    Ok I just had a thought and wanted to ask it here more geared in the direction of the instructors of the forums but anyone can chime in with their .02.

    I wanted to ask if it makes sense to maybe teach the Master Key Techniques first. Once the student has the basics like stances, blocks, strikes and such rather than follow a per belt plan. Would it maybe benefit the student to learn the master key techs first, not the entire family grouping but just the master keys then go back and work the family groups of each? Seems like a good foundation to build off of but what do you think?
    I'm not yet saying I agree or disagree with the idea, but I would like to maybe challenge your thinking on it..

    Why? What would be the benefit of changing it to this format of teaching?
    How would this build the students knowledge, skills and experiences of Kenpo BETTER than the way it's done now?


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    Default Re: Teach the Master Key Techniques first???

    Quote Originally Posted by hemi View Post
    Ok I just had a thought and wanted to ask it here more geared in the direction of the instructors of the forums but anyone can chime in with their .02.

    I wanted to ask if it makes sense to maybe teach the Master Key Techniques first. Once the student has the basics like stances, blocks, strikes and such rather than follow a per belt plan. Would it maybe benefit the student to learn the master key techs first, not the entire family grouping but just the master keys then go back and work the family groups of each? Seems like a good foundation to build off of but what do you think?
    What defines a Master Key Tech?
    Which Master Key Basics Should come first?
    Can There be Master Key Basics without Master Key Movement?
    Brad Marshall SP
    KKFI

    trgodbm@yahoo.com

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    Default Re: Teach the Master Key Techniques first???

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother John View Post
    I'm not yet saying I agree or disagree with the idea, but I would like to maybe challenge your thinking on it..

    Why? What would be the benefit of changing it to this format of teaching?
    How would this build the students knowledge, skills and experiences of Kenpo BETTER than the way it's done now?


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    John

    Ok I think I may have opened a can, or should I say wrote a check my rear can’t cash. But with that said I am just coming back to Kenpo, I am working on getting myself ready to test for Green. Right now I feel like I see with new eyes, as I rework that what I learned oh 8 months ago and since I have been attending the beginner’s class as well as my normal class. I think some days I learn more in the beginner’s class than I do in my phase 2 classes. I find that I may have developed a bad habit in the way I perform a tech that I learned a while back in training. And after being shown again slowly with the beginner’s class I am able to correct that and try to work on changing in myself.

    But one thing that got me to wondering about master key techs. Like five swords, when I learned this I had already learned, Delayed Sword, Defying the Storm, Raining Claw, Captured Twigs, Glancing Wing, Gripping Talon, and some more I don’t have my book with me here at work to list them all.

    But I took this post here On 'MASTER KEYS TECHNIQUES'

    This lists the “MASTER KEYS TECHNIQUES”. That got me to thinking well if I had learned Five Swords first, and was given time to work this and ingrain the moves. Then given another of the “MK” techs that set up another family of techs say I had 3 master keys down. The primary moves were no longer foreign to me and I was comfortable with them. Wouldn’t it make it easy to learn the moves in the family group of that MK tech? Since each stems from the MK and all the moves are going to be very similar in nature.

    Let me just stop for a second, I am not downing my instructor, he has his reasons and ways he teaches. He also has more than 20 years experience doing so; this was just more of a curiosity on my part. And I’m asking those with way more experience than me.
    A black belt covers 2" of your butt. Covering the rest is soley up to you

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    Default Re: Teach the Master Key Techniques first???

    Some of the Master Key techniques are too difficult for the beginner to learn. You need the lessons of the other techniques to build upon to understand a some of the more complex techniques.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Teach the Master Key Techniques first???

    Quote Originally Posted by hemi View Post
    Ok Right now I feel like I see with new eyes, as I rework that what I learned oh 8 months ago and since I have been attending the beginner’s class as well as my normal class. I think some days I learn more in the beginner’s class than I do in my phase 2 classes. I find that I may have developed a bad habit in the way I perform a tech that I learned a while back in training. And after being shown again slowly with the beginner’s class I am able to correct that and try to work on changing in myself.


    So thru your advance study you had refrence to draw apon and look at the lower belt material. Here is a little something for you. To this day I still learn something from Delayed Sword every time I work it.

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    Default Re: Teach the Master Key Techniques first???

    The learning process never ends; this is true.

    I think the curriculum is set up the way it is in most cases to accomplish the teaching of Master Keys as you go. For instance, you learn Five Swords and it "clicks" ...hey...this is kinda like Delayed Sword...cept diff'rent....hmmm...makes ya think.

    With the complexity of the moves increasing as you go up in rank, you wouldn't necessarily teach a beginner Five Swords until they had a good grasp of Delayed Sword. By then...they've developed some muscle memory, coordination, and skill. So, by the time they reach Five Swords in the curriculm they learn it better, partly because they've already been introduced to a master key.

    Without getting long-winded, I think the technques are great tools for teaching us a great many things; Principles, Master Keys, everything we need to know....It's like the Chunky Soup motto, "It's in there!"

    There are certain things we need to learn to build upon in our martial training. You don't start writing words without first learning your ABC's....know what I mean? I do think it's a good idea to address master keys within techniques as the student learns them though.

    Good question and post!
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    Default Re: Teach the Master Key Techniques first???

    I think it is good to learn a little bit along the way progressively, so that when it all starts coming together the big picture is much clearer and easier to see.
    "Seek not to follow in the footsteps of men of old; seek what they sought." ~Matsu Basho

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    Default Re: Teach the Master Key Techniques first???

    I would say from a performace based perception, that yes it would make sense to learn the "master key techniques" first since they share commonalities with so many other physical movements. But, from a self protection stand point, I don't think so because the attacks and defenses are set up so the most common and easiest to defend against are taught first and then more advanced attacks follow. It would not help the student to teach them to try and defend against a more sophisticated and difficult attack without first being able to defend against a more common and simple attack (at least in my opinion).
    "For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer."

    Romans 13:4

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    Default Re: Teach the Master Key Techniques first???

    I really dont like the term master key techniques.
    Not a fan of it at all.
    my mind is changing on how I think things should be taught all the time. So my answers atm probably are a mess..

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    Default Re: Teach the Master Key Techniques first???

    Quote Originally Posted by LuckyKBoxer View Post
    I really dont like the term master key techniques.
    Not a fan of it at all.
    my mind is changing on how I think things should be taught all the time. So my answers atm probably are a mess..


    I agree David, although I do teach most beginners our set curriculum , basics, Blocking Set, Delayed Sword, etc, I do at times tailor my lessons. Example, I do have some security guards and nurses that work at the Psychiatric Hospital so I tailor their lessons to meet the needs. Recently there has been nurses seriously hurt so I focus immediately on environment awareness, blocks, strikes, some good old pain compliance holds, etc. It was similar when I taught a blind student, we had a set curriculum for her, I truly believe this is what we were meant to do by tailoring the art to the individual.

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