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Thread: Attacker Issues

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    Default Attacker Issues

    I'd like to discuss what I'm seeing when students are working on Yellow Belt tecs.

    I am constantly after the U students to attack correctly - I think the ones that know better are getting lazy~!
    I would like some thoughts and perspectives .

    Delayed Sword-

    First 'problem' is with the attacker not getting close enough.
    I see the arm extended moreso than not, and this disallows the defender to be in position for the kick.
    I am also seeing the kick planting back and not checking the opponents right knee.

    The defender tends to check way to high also.

    So obviously for the tec to 'work' in the Ideal phase. We need to have Attacker Classes.


    Is Delayed Sword a -'I'm In your Face' kind of attack
    Teaching a student to be the attacker-

    I'll delve into the defender issues in another thread.

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    Default Re: Attacker Issues

    Alternating Maces

    The attacker is not at fault here for the tec to look sloppy.. the defender tends to 'whip' through this tec much to fast.. I'm always telling them to slow down and articulate their movements. Yes it's a fluid type of tec compared to some of the other yellow, so they fly through it.
    Slowing them down to an isometric speed helps formulate their articulation.. but then when they are moving in the 'jingle' line.. most again.. just zip through this.. losing the tec to speed. This is not only a beginner issue.. but for all ranks.

    So SLow Down.. when working with your attacker.. let them actually Attack- before you defend.

    Thoughts?

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    Default Re: Attacker Issues

    Sword of Destruction

    Ok.. with this tec.. we get alot of uhhh's out of the beginning student..
    The attacker is using a left roundhouse punch and that in itself is 99 % of the time done haphazardly.. Being most are right handed this punch throws the defender off guard.

    Again, I'm seeing the attacker throwing the punch from to far away.. (note to reader.. this is when the attacker is another beginner).. That will change hopefully as they gain training and experience


    I'm wondering if it's the 'stay outta my airspace' syndrome. ohhh you're to close to me...

    Showing beginners to plant the R foot forward and check
    the L leg while settling into a RNB ..to employ MOG for the handsword..is easy.. but getting them to do it~!!
    You can teach and show over and over again.. but some just don't get the concept of Marriage of Gravity until later down the road.

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    Default Re: Attacker Issues

    While I agree with some of your points about training an attack in the ideal phase correctly having an attacker class would be a bit overkill.

    Mr. Parker talked about using different points of views, the attacker, the defender, the observer or passerby (3 points of view). Sometimes training a technique in the ideal phase requires going through all 3 points of view, this can sometime help someone assess or demonstrate the ideal attack after seeing some of the logisticsand benefits of attacking properly.

    I have seen the same problem over and over, for one I think it mentally has a lot to do with most of us in training are nice people and do not want to truly attack or hurt our partners, and yes I think sometimes it can be out of fatique or laziness as well.

    I usually try to train the ideal phase from all 3 points of view, the attacker, the defender, and the observer or passer by. Usually this dictates the environment, adds to the realism and reason of the technique and attack and ganders a better understanding of the ideal phase in the student.

    I hope this helps.

    Brian Hunter
    www.hunterskarate.com

    "I believe that to have a friend, a man must be one."

    - From the Lone Ranger's Creed




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    Default Re: Attacker Issues

    Deflecting hammer

    Teaching a beginner a Front thrust kick.. getting them over that hump of awkwardness of being on 'display'.. of actually doing a pelvic thrust to extend the kick.. well it's amusing to the instructor.. but frustrating for the student.

    Until they actually Move a Human body using the thrust kick.. it's subliminal to explain it to someone.

    this tec tends to fizzle out before it even begins.
    I see the attacker throw a front ball kick.. not utilizing the thrust kick correctly.. which tends to change the balance of the attacker comparitively to a snap kick.. their body mechanics are off..
    so the defender throws the block.. the attacker spins around rather like Thrusting salute.. and the defender can't figure out why their targets are not where they are supposed to be.
    The things that make you go hmmm.

  6. #6
    CaptShady Guest

    Default Re: Attacker Issues

    Hrmm, odd. In my school the saying is that you truly know a technique when you can dummy properly. I suggest thorough explainations of the techniques, and ideal responses when the technique is taught in the first place. That would eliminate the need for "attacker's classes".

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    Default Re: Attacker Issues

    Sure we don't want to hurt each other.. and yes we do get lazy. By an Attacker class, I am stressing the movements of 'How an attacker would react' If I am the attacker in Checking the storm.. the parry- block moves my arm out of line.. the kick comes in and I don't 'react' because my opponent doesn't make contact at all with my body- pulls the first kick.. then I'm not in the correct place for the 2nd kick to come in .. much less the backknuckle.. which I tend to see being thrown up high, instead of mid range in close to you where the attackers head would end up. (in the Ideal phase)

    If we could come to that happy place in the ideal phase where everything Was as it seemed.. sure it would be a great though unrealistic place.

    I'm attempting to get the student to the stage where it suddenly clicks.. such as last night an advanced orange was having issues with Glancing Salute.. as I watched him, he was not checking his opponent's arm before employing the palm heel.. I stopped him.. and told his opp. to 'struggle' .. she did.. and he ate her elbow.. he tried cupping the arm.. he ate it again.. after watching and having it done correctly on himself.. he got the picture, and exclaimed.. Oh WOW.. Now this makes sense!!

    So in essence.. if the attacker just stands there.. and doesn't employ a touch of realism.. how is the student going to process why a check is in a certain spot, why do I settle into my stance .. how do they progess?

    Maybe I'm just in a phase of my own training that these are manifesting..

    Thanks for your answers Brian~!

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    Default Re: Attacker Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoTess

    I'm attempting to get the student to the stage where it suddenly clicks.. such as last night an advanced orange was having issues with Glancing Salute.. as I watched him, he was not checking his opponent's arm before employing the palm heel.. I stopped him.. and told his opp. to 'struggle' .. she did.. and he ate her elbow.. he tried cupping the arm.. he ate it again.. after watching and having it done correctly on himself.. he got the picture, and exclaimed.. Oh WOW.. Now this makes sense!!

    Thanks for your answers Brian~!
    To me that is an example of the 3 points of view coming into play The attacker had one...the defender had another, and you a 3rd......once you were able to put all 3 into play BAM...there it was it became more "ideal" and the attacks and checks and principles all came into play.
    www.hunterskarate.com

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  9. #9
    CaptShady Guest

    Default Re: Attacker Issues

    Hrm, all of that should be explained when the technique is taught. You can tell the student learning the technique that if the defender doesn't do X, reply with Y.

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    Default Re: Attacker Issues

    We are speaking of the Ideal phase.. where things don't change.. if a student doesn't do X.. and Y isn't in the equation.. they can't randomly reply. That would be utilizing the equation formula.. and that is only something a Beginner needs to be aware of.. Not Know or understand.

  11. #11
    CaptShady Guest

    Default Re: Attacker Issues

    When doing Delayed Sword, is the check with the left hand required or not? In my school, it is. So while teaching the technique, my instructor would say "your left hand MUST check for the attacker's left hand. If you're attacking, and the defender doesn't check with that left hand, just reach up and slap him."

    How in the world would that possibly be utilizing the equation formula?

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    Default Re: Attacker Issues

    I guess that's why I'm posting in my area.. and you should be posting in your school's area.. there will be differences.

  13. #13
    CaptShady Guest

    Default Re: Attacker Issues

    Ummmmm, I AM posting in mine. The small differences in the techniques 1) can be celebrated instead of seperatist, and 2) shouldn't allow for holes or openings.

    I still maintain that by teaching the technique correctly, you won't have the need for "attacker's classes".

    Lastly, I don't think a "I don't have an answer, so get out of my yard" response was necessary, in what I thought was just a friendly discussion.

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    Default Re: Attacker Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoTess
    Deflecting hammer

    Teaching a beginner a Front thrust kick.. getting them over that hump of awkwardness of being on 'display'.. of actually doing a pelvic thrust to extend the kick.. well it's amusing to the instructor.. but frustrating for the student.

    Until they actually Move a Human body using the thrust kick.. it's subliminal to explain it to someone.

    this tec tends to fizzle out before it even begins.
    I see the attacker throw a front ball kick.. not utilizing the thrust kick correctly.. which tends to change the balance of the attacker comparitively to a snap kick.. their body mechanics are off..
    so the defender throws the block.. the attacker spins around rather like Thrusting salute.. and the defender can't figure out why their targets are not where they are supposed to be.
    The things that make you go hmmm.
    I have seen the same thing occur....also I notice people kick "away" from the target not wanting to hit the person and not teaching them to "get out of the way" of the thrust kick. I think this one stems from "being nice" and not wanting to hurt your partner. I have really noticed this tech with the kids at my school, they don't want to really kick each other so instead of creating space and getting out of the way the defender tends to stay in place while the attacker kicks "around" them. Good points!
    www.hunterskarate.com

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    - From the Lone Ranger's Creed




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    Default Re: Attacker Issues

    ok.. If I came across harshly.. I apologize.. I was posting this for some feedback .. and I'm seeing.. well basically if you're not teaching it correctly.. you're going to have the attack done incorrectly..

    I'm not saying go to your own yard.. I don't know you.. (though I have an idea) and though I tend to type something that may come across as 'innane' to other's.. Mr. Conatser knows me and can understand what I'm trying to say.. and these questions and comments I would like his input on also.

    As I teach.. I learn.. it's not all cut and dried.. there's variables to each tec.. and I'm just attempting to get a handle on some things I'm seeing lately with brand new white belts that I may have not paid attention to the way I should of .. on now purple belts.

  16. #16
    CaptShady Guest

    Default Re: Attacker Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoTess
    and I'm seeing.. well basically if you're not teaching it correctly.. you're going to have the attack done incorrectly..
    I didn't mean it that way, I was just trying to say that attacker issues are taught (in my school) when the technique is being taught. Students get corrected on proper attack and proper response just the same as they get corrected while doing a technique on someone. Sometimes worse, like during a belt test.

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    Default Re: Attacker Issues

    Ok.. I misconstrued.. sorry
    We also teach the attacker how to react when we teach the tec.. it's getting them to consistantly do so.. it's getting the defender to actually make contact (light and easy) so the attacker can react accordingly.
    We have a new white belt who's an ex marine.. ( age 26)he's very powerful.. very rigid.. we have a white belt who's a gentle souled female.. (age 19).. Teaching him to relax and flow..is a tough one.. having his background.. teaching her to actually make contact with a punch.. yet another issue..
    so taking these aspects of each.. this is what has made me aware .

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    Default Re: Attacker Issues

    If you analyze the techniques in terms of sequential flow, compare Five Swords to Delayed Sword in that each strike could potentially end a fight, even with Borrowed Force, my opponent may not be available for the 2nd strike. My thought is that even in the ideal, if the kick is effective, the opponent may not be there for the handsword.

    Go figure?

    -Michael

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    Default Re: Attacker Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoTess
    Alternating Maces

    The attacker is not at fault here for the tec to look sloppy.. the defender tends to 'whip' through this tec much to fast.. I'm always telling them to slow down and articulate their movements. Yes it's a fluid type of tec compared to some of the other yellow, so they fly through it.
    Slowing them down to an isometric speed helps formulate their articulation.. but then when they are moving in the 'jingle' line.. most again.. just zip through this.. losing the tec to speed. This is not only a beginner issue.. but for all ranks.

    So SLow Down.. when working with your attacker.. let them actually Attack- before you defend.

    Thoughts?
    Sorry I don't have a section so I'll troll this one. I believe the backnuckle is the most sluffed move on the average and a good way to "slow" the studends down is to insure that they line up their body perpendicular to the target so that they pull the shot. If this is acheived it can eventualy be thrusted on the second half of the strike with proper anchoring and relaxation.
    Sean

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    Default Re: Attacker Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptShady
    Hrmm, odd. In my school the saying is that you truly know a technique when you can dummy properly. I suggest thorough explainations of the techniques, and ideal responses when the technique is taught in the first place. That would eliminate the need for "attacker's classes".
    That saying suggests that all the answers are in the techs, but attacker classes aren't a bad idea because not everyone gleams these answers so easily. Its a lot easier to teach people how to attack with commitment than to indirectly assume what it might take to make a tech work.
    KC

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