On 'MASTER KEYS TECHNIQUES'

[John]

In previous thread,Mr Conaster's Master Keys:


''Here is what Dennis Conatser posted once. But he only gave the full evolution for one of the 10. I wish he would list the rest sometime.

Chris

10 Master Key Techniques - From Dennis Conatser

THUNDERING HAMMERS + 32 "variations of"
FIVE SWORDS + 44
LONE KIMONO + 9
SHIELDING HAMMER + 17
REPEATING MACE + 8
LOCKED WING + 1
INTELLECTUAL DEPARTURE + 4
THRUSTING SALUTE + 2
PARTING WINGS + 24
HOOKING WINGS + 4

One example group...

LONE KIMONO:
Twin Kimono
Clutching Feathers
Locking Horns
Captured Leaves
Entangled Wing
Snapping Twig
Raking Mace
Obscure Sword
Falcons of Force''



Guys im really confused...Are these really the MKT?I have been trying to figure out which are the Master Key Techniques for some time now by searching n analising on my own plus with help from the Lampkin bros PDF of family groups.
This thread really confused me as i have groupd the techniques in at times different ways than this thread has them...Offcourse im not saying im right!!But i would love some input from you guys...
Examples would be ''leap of death",isnt that the mirror image or 'repeating mace''?So why isnt it in the same family?Isnt 'Lone Kimono' a '5 Swords variation??what makes it a MKM?Isnt 'Raking Mace' the '5 swords' technique rearanged??
Im really drowning here hahaha...Id appriciate any help and comments from you guys!!

Thanx

[Martin Seck]

Techniques can be realted by:

• Motion
• Targets
• Weapons
• Attacks
• Principals

You are on the right track, keep looking deeper this is one area that people are reluctant to "hand over". Enjoy the research

[John]

The complete list was :

''THUNDERING HAMMERS 32
Sleeper
Dance of Death
Grasping Eagles
Unwinding Pendulum
Dance of Darkness ***
Attacking Mace
Flashing Wings
Darting Mace
Crossing Talons
Desperate Falcons
Circling Fans ***
Leaping Crane
Gathering Clouds
Circling the Horizon
Piercing Lance
Taming the Mace
Shield and Mace ‑ Advanced
Back Breaker
Kneel of Compulsion
Brushing the Storm
Escape from the Storm
Flashing Mace
Glancing Salute
Clipping the Storm
Glancing Lance
Ram and the Eagle
Returning Storm
Grasp of Death
Gift of Destruction
Gift in Return
Gift of Destiny
Broken Gift

FIVE SWORDS 46
Delayed Sword
Fatal Deviation ***
Alternating Mace
Snaking Talons ***
Aggressive Twins
Entwined Maces ***
Defying the Storm
Mace of Aggression
Snapping Twigs
The Bear and the Ram
Tripping Arrow
Falling Falcon
Conquering Shield
Cross of Death
Bowing to Buddha
Raining Claw
Glancing Wing
Prance of the Tiger
Circling Fans ***
Deflecting Hammer
Hugging Pendulum
Retreating Pendulum
Dance of Darkness ***
Unwinding Pendulum
Menacing Twirl
Reversing Circles ***
Swinging Pendulum
Detour From Doom
Deceptive Panther
Charging Ram
Broken Ram
Intercepting the Ram
Spreading Branch
Reprimanding the Bears
Captured Twigs
Crushing Hammer
Obscure Wing
Calming the Storm
Securing the Storm
Triggered Salute
Twisted Twig
Bow of Compulsion
Reversing Mace
Circling Destruction
Gripping Talon
Twisted Rod

LONE KIMONO: 9
Twin Kimono
Clutching Feathers
Locking Horns
Captured Leaves
Entangled Wing
Snapping Twig
Raking Mace
Obscure Sword
Falcons of Force

INTELLECTUAL DEPARTURE: 4
Circle of Doom
Rotating Destruction
Unfolding The Dark
Encounter With Danger

SHIELDING HAMMER: 20
Sword of Destruction
Evading The Storm
Protecting Fans
Shield and Mace
Leap From Danger
Dominating Circles
Circles of Protection
Raining Lance
Circling Windmills
Unfurling Crane
Reversing Circles
Leap of Death
Destructive Kneel
Destructive Fans
Glancing Spear
Desperate Falcons
Broken Rod
Fatal Deviation ***
Entwined Maces ***
Snaking Talons ***


REPEATING MACE: 8
Shield and Sword
Twirling Hammers
Checking The Storm
Twirling Wings
Entwined Lance
Parting of the Snakes
Capturing the Rod
Defying the Rod

LOCKED WING: 1
Flight to Freedom

THRUSTING SALUTE: 2
Buckling Branch
Striking Serpent's Head

PARTING WINGS: 24
Thrusting Prongs
Begging Hands
Thrusting Wedge
Blinding Sacrifice
Twist of Fate
Crashing Wings
Spiraling Twigs
Squatting Sacrifice
Scraping Hoof
Repeated Devastation
Cross of Destruction
Fallen Cross
Heavenly Ascent
Squeezing the Peach
Crossed Twigs
Circling Wing
Wings of Silk
Obstructing the Storm
Capturing the Storm
Calming the Storm
Securing the Storm
Snakes of Wisdom
Grip of Death
Escape From Death

HOOKING WINGS: 4
Fatal Cross
Twirling Sacrifice
Defensive Cross
Marriage of the Rams''

Thnk you for your responce sir!Im actually looking for those as well as related footwork.Still I dunno...those 10 still give me more questions than answers...but thats could be a good thing!

[Martin Seck]

There are relationships within relationships too at the end of this stage of discovery you may be surprised what you find.

Better not say anymore the Kenpo Ninjas may come looking for me.

[MARSHALLS KENPO]

Techniques can be realted by:

• Motion
• Targets
• Weapons
• Attacks
• Principals

You are on the right track, keep looking deeper this is one area that people are reluctant to "hand over". Enjoy the research

Brother Martin this is so true.
Let me add this to the question. The reason Master key Techinques or so confussing and not often shared is from the perception from which they are viewed. Matser Key Tech, are transitory links that allow us to bridge the gap from one tech to another.

They are techinques that are related by the examples you listed, and able to be applied in multiple attack sitituations..

They are made up of: Mater Key Basics (embroyinc basic that are sophisticated by application, and found in multiple techs)

Master Key Movement which relates to movement its-self either through, stances, foot manuvers, or path of action of the body or the strike.

I find that a persons understanding level of the material will decide what they belive to be a Master Key tech. If I take parts of the first 4 techs in Yellow belt and graft them together into a tech that can be used in multiple attacks, and against multiple zones. Then I have created a Master Key tech. The reason is I have used MASTER KEY basics, and Master Key movement.
However I dont think I will see it on any list.

Your Brother

[MARSHALLS KENPO]

On another note:

Im sure someone will have something to say about my last post.

[Celtic_Crippler]

Techniques can be realted by:

• Motion
• Targets
• Weapons
• Attacks
• Principals

You are on the right track, keep looking deeper this is one area that people are reluctant to "hand over". Enjoy the research

As Martin says.....

I wouldn't stress so much about trying to figure out "which one's go where." Instead, I would suggest spending that energy on understading why and how techniques work the way they do and the principles behind them that make them work. By doing that you may discover the answers to many of your questions.

[KenpoJuJitsu3]

The 'Master Key Technique' is a conceptual idea and not a hard list. It is basically how YOU narrow down the list of tecniques to a handful. I have for a long time narrowed the list down to 13 'master key' techniques.

Delayed Sword
Alternating Maces
Aggressive Twins
Sword of Destruction
Deflecting Hammer
Captured Twigs
Spreading Branch
Grasp of Death
Checking the Storm
Mace of Aggression
Attacking Mace
Sword and Hammer
Intellectual Departure

And even this list can be narrowed down further.

[MARSHALLS KENPO]

I think there is only one master key techinque Kenpo,

Everthing else is just interpitation, of related movement, and how to transisition thru non related movement.

[John]

The 'Master Key Technique' is a conceptual idea and not a hard list. It is basically how YOU narrow down the list of tecniques to a handful. I have for a long time narrowed the list down to 13 'master key' techniques.

Delayed Sword
Alternating Maces
Aggressive Twins
Sword of Destruction
Deflecting Hammer
Captured Twigs
Spreading Branch
Grasp of Death
Checking the Storm
Mace of Aggression
Attacking Mace
Sword and Hammer
Intellectual Departure

And even this list can be narrowed down further.

Hello Mr Hawkins,thanx for the responce,the lists i have made as very very close to the list you posted!At least i know im not looking at things from another planet lol.
Yes,the master key concept is 'open' and conseptual,what i got in mind is what was told by a master that 'Kenpo is based on a bunch (i think he actually said seven) techs in which mr,Parker built upon'.So i guess in my mind i always had that and i was trying to finde those 7 core techs as in that way my understanding of the art would be better.
As Mr.Planas says 'Kenpo is a handful of techniques n a whole buch of variations' and searching has done nothing than benefit me in many ways,so trust me ill keep looking



Btw.thanx ALOT for your videos on youtube...theyve been highly educational,i have a lot or respect for you n that work.

[John]

The 'Master Key Technique' is a conceptual idea and not a hard list. It is basically how YOU narrow down the list of tecniques to a handful. I have for a long time narrowed the list down to 13 'master key' techniques.

Delayed Sword
Alternating Maces
Aggressive Twins
Sword of Destruction
Deflecting Hammer
Captured Twigs
Spreading Branch
Grasp of Death
Checking the Storm
Mace of Aggression
Attacking Mace
Sword and Hammer
Intellectual Departure

And even this list can be narrowed down further.

Hello Mr Hawkins,thanx for the responce,the lists i have made as very very close to the list you posted!At least i know im not looking at things from another planet lol.
Yes,the master key concept is 'open' and conseptual,what i got in mind is what was told by a master that 'Kenpo is based on a bunch (i think he actually said seven) techs in which mr,Parker built upon'.So i guess in my mind i always had that and i was trying to finde those 7(?) core techs as in that way my understanding of the art would be better.
As Mr.Planas says 'Kenpo is a handful of techniques n a whole buch of variations' and searching has done nothing than benefit me in many ways,so trust me ill keep looking



Btw.thanx ALOT for your videos on youtube...theyve been highly educational,i have a lot or respect for you n that work.

[MARSHALLS KENPO]

Over my years of study within the art of Mr. Ed Parker’s American Kenpo Karate, I have had the opportunity to study with many great Kenpo practitioners. Years of study
have directed me to countless seminars and camps, covering many aspects of the art. Topics ranging from Concepts and Principles, Basics, and Techniques, along with the personal insight of those with which I have trained, greatly enhanced my comprehensive knowledge of the art. Every module of training that I have been able to attend, guided me to more questions in my pursuit of knowledge; just as Mr. Parker wished it to be. One topic however has contentiously found a way to elude my understanding, and fueled my burning quest for knowledge, that being Master Key Techniques.

Often I would ask questions along the lines of “ What are Mater Key Techniques, how do they differ from Master Key Movements, and Master Key basics, how many are there, who knows them, and who can share the information with me”. I would usually receive vague abstract answers; one person would say I don’t know (which I greatly respect their honesty) someone else may say there are six or perhaps two dozen or so. I
would ask questions such as, could you show me, or perhaps point me in the right direction. The answer usually was “ you have to discover those on your own”. I assure you that was not the answer for which I strongly desired. However I have found it to be a true statement.

While I appreciate the personal search for knowledge, I also believe it is the responsibility for senior members of the art, to share their knowledge and experiences they have attained over the years for the benefit of all, in order to accelerate a students learning process. Mr. Parker chose to share the material with all who honestly desired to share it with the world. However he limited sharing small details within the art to
different people, ensuring that we would have to come together without bias, political affiliation, or egos, in the continuous exchange of information, thus providing a channel for the evolution of the art of Kenpo.

I will attempt to try and answer a few of these questions to the best of my understanding by drawing upon past training, resources, and personal experience. Hopefully allowing me to explain the topics with a simple answer, followed by a detailed and complex analytical analysis within the study of motion. Please understand that I am a beginner, and do not claim to have the answers for which I am exploring within this paper. Nor do I wish to offend any person who may read the words I place within this document. I do have hope that some of the concepts for which I search will manifest themselves to me during my study.

Two questions arise when discussing Master Keys, (1) what is the Master Key, and (2), what is the single most relevant issue facing us today as instructors? Perhaps it is the diversified styles and association of the Kenpo world itself, or the retaining of the students, maybe the method of our teaching, or even the overwhelming effort it takes to maintain the wealth of knowledge we have gained over the years. The obligations and
responsibilities of providing our students with the best material we have, must relate to the understanding and teaching methods of the instructors. Many instructors and practitioners of the art are able to execute the material with great skill. However, many of those able to execute the material don’t fully understand the material well enough to teach. They often make modifications to a technique, based on personal preferences at a level within their understanding, which defy the underlying principles, allowing the result to become a watered down version of Kenpo. What some fail to understand is that when we change the material we deprive the students of the volutionary process of the art itself. When we look at the amount of material within the art, we make decisions in teaching based on the skill level of the students and the comfort
level of the instructor. There is no doubt that we all teach yellow belt material very well; often its not until we teach advanced material do we see the personality of the instructor revealed.

Master Key Techniques, Movements, and Basics are advanced concepts, however they are not advanced in theory or application. They consist of a combination of embryonic basics, which in turn become sophisticated by nature of their application. One must understand the difference between Complex Simplicity, and Simplified Complexity, in-order to maintain a student /instructor balance. An example of Complex Simplicity in
regards to a Right step through would be as follows.

From a left neutral bow facing 12:00, step forward with your right foot in the direction of 12:00 as you transition into a right neutral bow. While ensuring your head remains constant on a horizontal plane, and your right foot travels through the point of no return, focusing on the relationship of the position of your hips and shoulders to the centerline of your body. Allowing your hips and shoulders to synchronize their timing to
maximize the rotational torque, accelerating the horizontal momentum through travel. Ensuring the timing, which regulates the settling of your step, is within the directional harmony of gravitational marriage. Keeping in mind the proper Height, width, and depth relationships of the neutral bow, along with the foot alignment and the positional check properties of the stance itself.

An example of Simplified Complexity in regards to a right step through would be
as follows.

From a left neutral bow facing 12:00, step forward with your right foot in the direction of 12:00 into a right neutral bow. Oh how easy it is to impress beginners with terminology and theory. I strongly recommend caution as not to overwhelm your students.

Master Keys are common factors or similar applications, which can be used in multiple scenarios. They are classified into family groupings, of techniques, foot maneuvers, free style techniques, and basics.

Master Key Techniques are not secrets reserved for only upper ranking Kenpo stylist. They are simply a combination of basics, which are transitory by application. Providing us with a link to freely pass from one technique to another while in motion. They are a series of basics that follow a sequential flow of motion within multiple techniques.

Master Key Movement follows a similar concept. They generally refer to actual movement, which are common in multiple techniques. Foot maneuvers would be a family grouping of basics used for this purpose. Step through, cross over, Traveling twist etc; allow for the (Master Key) transitory movement along one of the 8 angles of attack or defense, in reference to a horizontal plane of the Universal pattern.

Master Key Basics break down to their simplest form, the embryonic basic. They are common basics, found in multiple family groupings of techniques. For example a Forward Bow is a Master Key Basic. The stance its self is transitory, not meant to be a fighting position, but one, which allows us to employ all the sophisticated applications of the basic stance. However, it also qualifies as a Master Key Movement, due to the
rotational properties transitioning from, back, or through to another stance.

Earlier I posed the question of how many Master Key Techniques are there, who knows them, and who could help me discover what they are. The origins of the Master Keys are found within the earliest stages of learning, evolving from isolated basics to complex techniques. Our instructors aid in the development of the student in execution of
the material and the technological study of the analytical analyst of the movement. They describe this process through the use of geometrical shapes, mathematical symbols, analogies and terminology.

In order to come up with a number of Master Key Techniques one must break down the material by family related groupings of techniques.Although we can break them down to outside or inside techniques, Grabs, Pushes, Punches, Kicks, Holds, Chokes, Weapons and so on. I have found that ones perceptual latitude dictates what is and is not considered to be a Master Key. Their perception is based on one of the three points of reference, either the 1st person, 2nd person, or 3rd person point of view. Along
with this one must also consider if they are inside looking out, or outside looking in. When combined with the Equation Formula, it is clear that there isn’t a right or wrong way to execute the material, as long as it doesn’t defy the principles that are found within the material.

While I started this article with a specific questions, I have come to realize that I already new the answers. They were supplied to me through many people over the years, hours of study, bumps and bruises, and Mr. Parkers infinite insights into Kenpo. The search for information and the study of material is what Mr. Parker wished for his art. The hardest thing for an instructor to accept is the day they realize that they now are the
teachers of the art, and not just a student. The responsibility to share the art with those that someday will replace us remains our primary obligation.

Over the time I have been studying Kenpo I have watched many Great Authorities of the art pass on, so is the nature of life. They have given so much to us, and so much passed on with them, they are dearly
missed. I have a student who not long ago shared his goal within the martial arts with me.

One statement he made really took me by surprise. His comment was “I hope to be an authority of the art like you someday”. I don’t think of myself in that manner, however my students do. I realized that every comment I make about the art, the material I teach, and the insight I provide to them is taken to heart. Even though I have been teaching for years, I consider that to be the day I became a teacher of the art and no longer an
instructor.

I have been very lucky to have been in Mr. Parkers Kenpo since 1984, and have had the privilege of learning the system in what I consider its latest form while Mr. Parker was still with us, even if it is considered commercial. While I ever look to increase my comprehensive knowledge of the Martial Arts, one thing remains constant. I chose to teach Mr. Parkers American Kenpo as outlined by his manuals, those who have stayed true to the art, and my own personal loyalty to the Parker system. I have had many opportunities to join other associations over the years by those who have gone their own way. I wish them well and great success.

I only regret that those who have left while following their beliefs, have
managed to distrupt the system, and failed in what I belive to be their obligations and responsibilities in trusted to them. It is sad to me to realize how many younger practitioners of Kenpo don’t even know who Mr. Parker was.

Now that both Mr. & Mrs. Parker have passed on it is my hope that someday the Flame that burned so brightly will again shine bright in the night. It will take a truly honest person who has only the best interest of the students and the art in mind to lead the Kenpo world and re unite us. Unfortunately there is so much bitterness in the Kenpo world today; that I believe this will have to happen with a new generation of leaders of
the art.

Until that time I pledge an unwavering loyalty to my Instructor, my students, my association, and the family group whose umbrella I am proud to be a part of. I just wish others would remember the pledges they spoke with such strong conviction at one time, and stand behind those words.

I know that their are a lot of people who may disagree with my statements.
But before you rip me apart for my belief,please post your own.
I look forward to open anyalisis.
My Deepest Respect

[Brother John]

EXCELLENT post, Brother Brad, excellent!

Thanks
Lots to chew on there!

Your Brother
John

[jjpregler]

I have a question: What makes a master key technique the master? For instance 5 Swords has a relation to delayed sword. Why is 5 Swords the master and delayed sword not?

[MARSHALLS KENPO]

I have a question: What makes a master key technique the master? For instance 5 Swords has a relation to delayed sword. Why is 5 Swords the master and delayed sword not?

A master key technique is one that can be found within multiple techs, and can be applied within multiple sitituations. The master key bacics and master key moves or what relates the techniques. As you have noticed the master key basics and moves found in the technique of delayed sword, or in five swords, and other techs in the system. Perhaps delayed sword is a master key technique, it can be against different attacks. So the possibilty of it being a master key tech depends on the perceptual laditude in which you veiw it.

[jjpregler]

A master key technique is one that can be found within multiple techs, and can be applied within multiple sitituations. The master key bacics and master key moves or what relates the techniques. As you have noticed the master key basics and moves found in the technique of delayed sword, or in five swords, and other techs in the system. Perhaps delayed sword is a master key technique, it can be against different attacks. So the possibilty of it being a master key tech depends on the perceptual laditude in which you veiw it.

So the master keys can be different for each individual based on the wya that they customize their own Kenpo?

[michaeledward]

So the master keys can be different for each individual based on the wya that they customize their own Kenpo?

I wouldn't describe it in this way, at all.

In fact, I get really kind of prickly when I see words like 'customize their own kenpo'.

It is my understanding that our system of American Kenpo was created with design and intent. It is not a haphazard assembly of blocks and chops and kicks and punches.

Just as a musician will spend many hours in the woodshed running scales and modes, in order to be fluent with melody when called upon for improvisation, so too, must the martial artist spend time running through the mechanics of movement. Eventually, the student of the art will learn to improvise with motion, spontaneous action and reaction.

As a student, we need to learn our scales. The scales of Five Swords / Delayed Sword are presented to us in the system.

Short Form 1 - Neutral Bow / Inward Block
Delayed Sword - Neutral Bow / Inward Block / Handsword
Short Form 2 - Neutral Bow / Inward Block / Handsword
Long Form 2 - Neutral Bow / Inward Block / Handsword / Heel Palm / Punch
Five Swords - Neutral Bow / Inward Block / Handsword / Heel Palm / Punch ...
Form 4 - Low Block / Inward Block / Handsword / Heel Palm / Punch ....
Detour from Doom - Low Block / Heel Palm (as a punch) / Punch (as a backknuckle) ...
etc etc etc

As we progress through the system, (continuing with the music methaphore) we learn new notes to add to our scales. It seems to me that a student who wishes to 'customize their own kenpo', before he has the curriculum's full catalogue of information jeapordizes his understanding of the art.

So, while the idea of a 'Master Key' is seductive, I have for several years now, put it aside in my training. I am concentrating on 'what is the weapon? what is the target?'. And I am looking to recognize body position, which will allow me to graft techniques together. This will allow me to be more spontaneous; at which time, I believe, the Master Key's will become apparent.

I don't think intellectual awareness of a 'Master Key' will speed my ability to use it, nor will it increase its effectiveness without the time in the woodshed.

[jjpregler]

I wouldn't describe it in this way, at all.

In fact, I get really kind of prickly when I see words like 'customize their own kenpo'.

It is my understanding that our system of American Kenpo was created with design and intent. It is not a haphazard assembly of blocks and chops and kicks and punches.

Just as a musician will spend many hours in the woodshed running scales and modes, in order to be fluent with melody when called upon for improvisation, so too, must the martial artist spend time running through the mechanics of movement. Eventually, the student of the art will learn to improvise with motion, spontaneous action and reaction.

As a student, we need to learn our scales. The scales of Five Swords / Delayed Sword are presented to us in the system.

Short Form 1 - Neutral Bow / Inward Block
Delayed Sword - Neutral Bow / Inward Block / Handsword
Short Form 2 - Neutral Bow / Inward Block / Handsword
Long Form 2 - Neutral Bow / Inward Block / Handsword / Heel Palm / Punch
Five Swords - Neutral Bow / Inward Block / Handsword / Heel Palm / Punch ...
Form 4 - Low Block / Inward Block / Handsword / Heel Palm / Punch ....
Detour from Doom - Low Block / Heel Palm (as a punch) / Punch (as a backknuckle) ...
etc etc etc

As we progress through the system, (continuing with the music methaphore) we learn new notes to add to our scales. It seems to me that a student who wishes to 'customize their own kenpo', before he has the curriculum's full catalogue of information jeapordizes his understanding of the art.

So, while the idea of a 'Master Key' is seductive, I have for several years now, put it aside in my training. I am concentrating on 'what is the weapon? what is the target?'. And I am looking to recognize body position, which will allow me to graft techniques together. This will allow me to be more spontaneous; at which time, I believe, the Master Key's will become apparent.

I don't think intellectual awareness of a 'Master Key' will speed my ability to use it, nor will it increase its effectiveness without the time in the woodshed.

My choice of the wording "costumize your own kenpo" was a poor choice of words. What I meant is to tailor the Kenpo to the individual. I cannot throw kicks as well as my sensei, nor do I imagine that I ever will. He is half my size and has much greater flexibility. It would be foolish for me to attempt to do what he does. Kenpo is not a one size fits all art. That is what I love about it.

My pursuit in understanding master keys right now I have no idea how it will help me in skill areas. It will help my intellectual understanding of the art, which is why I chose Kenpo to begin with. To me it is the most scientifically sound and most well thought out art around. I am a very analytical person. My intellect must be stimulated. It is my personality.

What you are seeming to be saying is that if I play blues, I don't need to study classical music theory as it will not help me play the blues any better.

I really appreciate you analogy of the techniquies as scales, that really hit home for me being a musician, however, in music I also studied how the scales developed. It never made me a better musician, but it did pique my interest to learn more, which did make me a better musician. so indirectly, me knowing the fluff on the outside helps me with the substance on the inside.

[michaeledward]

What you are seeming to be saying is that if I play blues, I don't need to study classical music theory as it will not help me play the blues any better.

Not my intent at all.

Whether one is playing a 12 bar blues tune or a scherzo in a Beethoven symphony, the notes and scales can be the same. A pentatonic scale can be used in either situation. A dorian mode can be used in either situation. What I am saying is that understanding the fundamentals of the system is critical to application. One doesn't start with the intricacies of the symphony.

First we need to know the notes, then we need to know the structure and form, then we can obtain a deeper appreciation of the art. Listening to Jupiter without such knowlege is one thing. But a different level of appreciation is apparent with knowlege of the underlying theory and application.

[jjpregler]

Not my intent at all.

Whether one is playing a 12 bar blues tune or a scherzo in a Beethoven symphony, the notes and scales can be the same. A pentatonic scale can be used in either situation. A dorian mode can be used in either situation. What I am saying is that understanding the fundamentals of the system is critical to application. One doesn't start with the intricacies of the symphony.

First we need to know the notes, then we need to know the structure and form, then we can obtain a deeper appreciation of the art. Listening to Jupiter without such knowlege is one thing. But a different level of appreciation is apparent with knowlege of the underlying theory and application.

I fully agree that we need to learn the fundamentals of the system first. However, to me the master key techniques are like the circle of 4ths or circle of 5ths. Knowing the circle does not make one better at the skill of their instrument, but it does help them understand the relationship between the scales. I would teach a novice (not a complete novice) a circle of fifths. They will not completely understand it at first, but with application and repeated lessons touching on the circle at a point the circle and relationship of the notes and scales to each other become crystal clear. I remember that day for me. It was a major lightbubl moment when it happened and it just clicked on. Since then my musicianship has been much better due to my understanding.

I am a novice and not in any way deluding myself that I will understand this concept by the end of today, but in a year, two years or however many years, this lighbubl moment will hapen if I continue to contemplate what it means and I feel at that time a whole new wolrd of understanding of the art will be opned up to me. For me, this is like my fist contact with the circle of fifths. I am trying to learn what it is right now. Eventually I'll learn the why and then look out!