Results 1 to 18 of 18

Thread: 16, 24 or 32?

  1. #1
    dubljay is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. Blue Belt
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    416
    Thanks
    2
    Thanked 9 Times in 8 Posts

    Default 16, 24 or 32?

    Which curriculum do you follow? What do you think the strengths and weaknesses of each are?
    Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

  2. #2
    Bob Hubbard's Avatar
    Bob Hubbard is offline Retired


    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Buffalo, New York, United States
    Posts
    5,610
    Thanks
    1,012
    Thanked 2,160 Times in 1,156 Posts

    Default Re: 16, 24 or 32?

    What are the differences?
    For ANY and ALL KenpoTalk issues, please use theContact Us link here or at page bottom right. Do NOT PM me for site support.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    1,699
    Thanks
    7
    Thanked 1,156 Times in 654 Posts

    Default Re: 16, 24 or 32?

    Others will be able to provide a more comprehensive, and correct, discussion concerning the differences in the system.

    The studio where I study, breaks the system down in a modified 16 technique system. Mr. Hogan tells me this is how Mr. Planas wants the system presented.
    • 13 techniques to reach Yellow
    • 16 techniques to reach Orange
    • 16 techniques to reach Purple
    • 16 techniques to reach Blue
    • 16 techniques to reach Green
    • 16 techniques to reach 3rd Brown
    • 16 techniques to reach 2nd Brown
    • 20 techniques to reach 1st Brown
    • 22 techniques to reach 1st Black
    There are 8 additional techniques on the curriculum to 2nd degree Black, as well as the beginning of the extentions. I believe that the complete curriculum, with all of the extentions, brings the student to 5th degree Black.

    In addition to all of the techniques ... forms and sets are a large part of the curriculum.

  4. #4
    Gin-Gin2's Avatar
    Gin-Gin2 is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. Green Belt
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Austin, TX, USA
    Posts
    613
    Thanks
    95
    Thanked 24 Times in 17 Posts

    Default Re: 16, 24 or 32?

    Here is a comparison between the 16 & 24 tech curriculums (courtesy of Mr. Duffy's website).

    Both Kenpo schools I've attended used the 16 techs, so I don't have any personal experience with the other two curriculums.
    The truly educated never graduate.
    "To understand the heart & mind of a person, look not at what they have already achieved, but what they aspire to do." -Kahlil Gibran

  5. #5
    dubljay is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. Blue Belt
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    416
    Thanks
    2
    Thanked 9 Times in 8 Posts

    Default Re: 16, 24 or 32?

    Thanks michaeledward and Gin-Gin for the explanations, I guess it could have used a bit of background huh?


    My instructor uses the 24 technique system. I happen to like it rather well, and it fit his teaching method nicely. With 24 techniques it allowed people more flexibility with the speed at which they learned the material. I was always there (subject to rumors that I slept on the couch above the office), and picked up material quickly so 24 techniques per belt kept my hands full. On the otherside students that didn't pick up on it as easily had the option of earning a stripe when they had gotten the hang of the first 12 techniques.

    The only problem I see with the 24 technique system is that it leaves orange belt without a weapons defense. Granted there is a club defese introduced in yellow belt, but there is nothing new for weapons until purple. I feel that orange belt is a bit premature to begin adaptation of techniques to fit different attacks (i.e. modifying from a punch defense to a club defense).

    Just my opinion and experiences

    -Josh
    Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

  6. #6
    Waya X Adisi is offline
    KenpoTalk
    White Belt
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    West Virginia
    Posts
    6
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default Re: 16, 24 or 32?

    I attend a school that teaches the 16 technique cirriculum and am very pleased with it. While it may seem like there aren't as many techinques to learn, to get rank advancement we must learn to perform the technique on both the right and left sides. In this aspect, the 16 techniques are really 32. To me, this promotes both left and right limb coordination, and it keeps the actual memorization aspect of self-defense fairly simple.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Baltimore, Maryland
    Posts
    2,270
    Thanks
    237
    Thanked 113 Times in 95 Posts

    Default Re: 16, 24 or 32?

    Quote Originally Posted by Waya X Adisi
    I attend a school that teaches the 16 technique cirriculum and am very pleased with it. While it may seem like there aren't as many techinques to learn, to get rank advancement we must learn to perform the technique on both the right and left sides. In this aspect, the 16 techniques are really 32. To me, this promotes both left and right limb coordination, and it keeps the actual memorization aspect of self-defense fairly simple.
    Where is this school in West Virginia?
    "To hear is to doubt. To see is to be deceived. But to feel is to believe." -- SGM Ed Parker

    "Sic vis pacem parabellum - If you want peace, prepare for war." -- "The Punisher"


    "Praying Mantis, very good. . . For catching bugs." --Jackie Chan

    "A horse stance is great for taking a dump" --Jet Li

  8. #8
    Waya X Adisi is offline
    KenpoTalk
    White Belt
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    West Virginia
    Posts
    6
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default Re: 16, 24 or 32?

    You can find out all you wish to know here http://www.seigelkenpo.com/ . Enjoy!

  9. #9
    dubljay is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. Blue Belt
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    416
    Thanks
    2
    Thanked 9 Times in 8 Posts

    Default Re: 16, 24 or 32?

    Quote Originally Posted by Waya X Adisi
    I attend a school that teaches the 16 technique cirriculum and am very pleased with it. While it may seem like there aren't as many techinques to learn, to get rank advancement we must learn to perform the technique on both the right and left sides. In this aspect, the 16 techniques are really 32. To me, this promotes both left and right limb coordination, and it keeps the actual memorization aspect of self-defense fairly simple.
    I would agree that fewer techniques would in general allow for more time per belt to develop those 16 techniques. Dexterity is a very good trait to develop, one that can give an edge.

    While it's not required to deomstrate the left side of the techniques for me, I am always reminded to get comfortable with them, and frequently encountered them in technique lines.
    Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    London, ON
    Posts
    1,601
    Thanks
    64
    Thanked 209 Times in 134 Posts

    Default Re: 16, 24 or 32?

    Quote Originally Posted by Waya X Adisi
    I attend a school that teaches the 16 technique cirriculum and am very pleased with it. While it may seem like there aren't as many techinques to learn, to get rank advancement we must learn to perform the technique on both the right and left sides. In this aspect, the 16 techniques are really 32. To me, this promotes both left and right limb coordination, and it keeps the actual memorization aspect of self-defense fairly simple.
    Interesting, but I really think it's a lot of unneccessary work. The aim should not be ambidexterity but rather to be efficient with both sides.

    Kenpo is a right-handed system for a reason - most people are righties. I truly believe that requiring all techniques on both sides wastes time that could be devoted to practising the system as it was created.

    I have a number of lefties in my school and all have picked up on the material as efficiently as anyone else.

    Just my opinion.


    Jamie Seabrook
    www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

  11. #11
    ackks10 is offline
    KenpoTalk
    1st. Brown Belt
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Laurel springs New jersey
    Posts
    859
    Thanks
    119
    Thanked 165 Times in 134 Posts

    Default Re: 16, 24 or 32?

    kenpo can be used on both sides, the beginner can't do it right away, but i'll tell you i know alot of people who can, as far as the 16,24, or 32 i have them all, Mr Parker did what he did for a reason,i'll leave it at that.

    ps whats up Mr Seabrook.
    " Resolve to be tender with the young,compassionate with the aged,sympathetic with the striving,tolerant with the weak and wrong..... Because sometime in your life you will have been all of these"

  12. #12
    Waya X Adisi is offline
    KenpoTalk
    White Belt
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    West Virginia
    Posts
    6
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default Re: 16, 24 or 32?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook
    Interesting, but I really think it's a lot of unneccessary work. The aim should not be ambidexterity but rather to be efficient with both sides.

    Kenpo is a right-handed system for a reason - most people are righties. I truly believe that requiring all techniques on both sides wastes time that could be devoted to practising the system as it was created.

    I have a number of lefties in my school and all have picked up on the material as efficiently as anyone else.

    Just my opinion.
    I myself and left handed and have no problem learning the material, in which you made a very good point. When it comes to being hand specific with the art though, I am always reminded of the example given in Infinite Insights vol. 1 of the man who is missing an arm. Not that this is the point trying to be made in the book, but what if through some circumstances the right side becomes unusuable? Through learning both sides, one can the same repitoire of techniques even under less than ideal circumstances i.e. broken limbs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook
    I truly believe that requiring all techniques on both sides wastes time that could be devoted to practising the system as it was created.
    If the Kenpo were always practiced as it were created it would ultimately defeat itself. The whole idea behind Ed Parker's Kenpo is that it is an ever evolving art and that no one way is ever absolutely right or absolutely wrong. This allows for certain degrees of freedom within the system to do things such as practice techniques on both right and left sides as well as to simply learn the base technique. Neither way is truly right, wrong, better, or worse. That is the beauty of Kenpo.

  13. #13
    Gin-Gin2's Avatar
    Gin-Gin2 is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. Green Belt
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Austin, TX, USA
    Posts
    613
    Thanks
    95
    Thanked 24 Times in 17 Posts

    Thumbs up Re: 16, 24 or 32?

    Quote Originally Posted by Waya X Adisi
    The whole idea behind Ed Parker's Kenpo is that it is an ever evolving art and that no one way is ever absolutely right or absolutely wrong. This allows for certain degrees of freedom within the system to do things such as practice techniques on both right and left sides as well as to simply learn the base technique. Neither way is truly right, wrong, better, or worse. That is the beauty of Kenpo.
    The truly educated never graduate.
    "To understand the heart & mind of a person, look not at what they have already achieved, but what they aspire to do." -Kahlil Gibran

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    119
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post

    Default Re: 16, 24 or 32?

    First off, the goal of kenpo isn't, "ambidexterity," or, "coordination," or any such thing. It's self-defense, and it's quite possible that pushing for, "being equal on both sides," gets in the way of that goal, becoming an end in itself, substituting for more important things like accuracy, power, maneuverability.

    Now I do know people who train techniques, and taught their students, both sides: it doesn't seem to've hurt them.Quite the contrary. But as mentioned, kenpo--like a lot of the Chinese arts--is right-sided (which isn't quite the same as, "right-handed"), biased towards the right side at all levels and in all sorts of ways, right from the moment a beginner learns to step left into a horse stance because the right side is considered the, "strong," side.

    In other words, there's a reason that the techniques are taught, "right-side," first and foremost. It isn't just that the right side is considered stronger, and a natural bias, and, "more masculine," in some aspects of the Chinese arts--it's also that the left side tends to get associated with a lot of the, "hidden," and, "sneaky," aspects of these arts, which shows up in American kenpo all the way from a student's first meeting with the checks in Delayed Sword through to the higher-level forms.

    I don't see anything inherently wrong with running the techniques on both sides; it's just that from my point of view, it isn't really necessary. Serious study takes you through the whole issue of, "balancing," sides (something that'll never be finished anyway) slowly, and especially ought to be part of going from brown to black belt, so what's the rush? I mean, the forms and sets, "get done on both sides," as it is, either because a) the two sides are taught separately then integrated, as in Short 1, or b) the two sides are intergated into the form right away, as in Short 2.

    Come to think of it, it's been my experience that this sort of thing isn't accidental, when it appears in kenpo--I wonder if the difference in sidedness between Short 1 and Short 2 isn't a big hint about the way it 'spozed to be.

    Again, I guess at this point I don't see anything inherently wrong with it, provided that this ambidexterity business doesn't become an end in itself, even though it does seem to be out of line with the basic philosohpy and practice of kenpo. Of course, if the argument is only that one should practice both sides to get beyond the, "basics," faster, I do have real doubts about THAT notion...

    And not that I'm sure about this, but I have to add (me being me) that there ARE right ways and wrong ways to do things in the martial arts, as in the rest of life. Everybody's entitled to their opinion, no matter how boneheaded--but that's democracy, a political issue, NOT reality. (For instance, one is absolutely entitled to believe that, "intelligent design," is good science and to act on that belief, but it's still lousy science.) There're lots of areas in which we can by all means disagree, but somebody's right and somebody's wrong...it's just not clear to me that this is fer sure one of them.

  15. #15
    Seig is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. Blue Belt
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Martinsburg, WV
    Posts
    453
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts

    Default Re: 16, 24 or 32?

    A far larger issue is ignored in the right/left debate, yes learning various aspects of coordination are a large part of it, as is self-defense; but, the larger aspect is being able to think in a fluid and dynamic situation and being able to translate that thought into movement. For example, a right brain dominant person will be wont to respond with the left side of his body, and vice versa. In my own experience, I tend to react with the left side. The bottom line, everyone thinks their own way the best or the most correct, based on the way they themselves believe or are taught. ALL three systems have value, and were designed with specific purposes. Anyone locked into a "This is the only correct way" thought pattern is doomed to stagnate at a certain level. That level will vary.

    Your own mileage may vary.
    Just because you do something one way, does not mean that everyone else does it that way, or that it is even the correct way.

  16. #16
    kenpochad's Avatar
    kenpochad is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Yellow Belt
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Mesa AZ
    Posts
    57
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default Re: 16, 24 or 32?

    25 per belt 3 brown belt 2 forms per belt up to brown 3,2, and 1
    3 open hand forms 2nd and 1st 3 open hand andone weapon per belt

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    No. CAlifornia
    Posts
    140
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts

    Smile Re: 16, 24 or 32?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook
    Interesting, but I really think it's a lot of unneccessary work. The aim should not be ambidexterity but rather to be efficient with both sides.

    Kenpo is a right-handed system for a reason - most people are righties. I truly believe that requiring all techniques on both sides wastes time that could be devoted to practising the system as it was created.

    I have a number of lefties in my school and all have picked up on the material as efficiently as anyone else.

    Just my opinion.


    Jamie Seabrook
    www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com
    Hi all,

    In Japan no one was a lefty. The country was so strict and disciplined you did it that way and that was it. No questions, no nada. Similar today.

    For hundreds of years it was that way, about a bakers dozen. This really is the funny thing about our culture, the way it evolved and how theirs did.

    Shinto and Greek Gods, India and their culture of numerous gods. It wasn't till General MacArthur changed their whole world that they complied and that was because they were/are compliant. (how long)???

    Not so in our Independent culture, everyone has rights. So more rights less lefts. Simple Huh? <(*-)...Seriously check it out.

    Now in my opinion the extra work is not something that goes to waste, you become a better practioner, better and much more capable person in the fact that you can do many things with either side.

    I go to a dental office where most of the people who work in there are lefties.
    I commented on it and the person I was talking to said yes, they try to hire lefties because they have learned to use both hands better.

    All kidding aside it is the truth. Opened versus Closed, hit with either hand as easily, or foot. Makes sense to me.

    Left handedness is not a compliment. Mono or poly which do you believe?

    Regards, Gary
    Last edited by Gary A Brewer; 10-04-2005 at 07:27 AM.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    London, ON
    Posts
    1,601
    Thanks
    64
    Thanked 209 Times in 134 Posts

    Default Re: 16, 24 or 32?

    Quote Originally Posted by rmcr
    First off, the goal of kenpo isn't, "ambidexterity," or, "coordination," or any such thing. It's self-defense, and it's quite possible that pushing for, "being equal on both sides," gets in the way of that goal, becoming an end in itself, substituting for more important things like accuracy, power, maneuverability.

    Now I do know people who train techniques, and taught their students, both sides: it doesn't seem to've hurt them.Quite the contrary. But as mentioned, kenpo--like a lot of the Chinese arts--is right-sided (which isn't quite the same as, "right-handed"), biased towards the right side at all levels and in all sorts of ways, right from the moment a beginner learns to step left into a horse stance because the right side is considered the, "strong," side.

    In other words, there's a reason that the techniques are taught, "right-side," first and foremost. It isn't just that the right side is considered stronger, and a natural bias, and, "more masculine," in some aspects of the Chinese arts--it's also that the left side tends to get associated with a lot of the, "hidden," and, "sneaky," aspects of these arts, which shows up in American kenpo all the way from a student's first meeting with the checks in Delayed Sword through to the higher-level forms.

    I don't see anything inherently wrong with running the techniques on both sides; it's just that from my point of view, it isn't really necessary. Serious study takes you through the whole issue of, "balancing," sides (something that'll never be finished anyway) slowly, and especially ought to be part of going from brown to black belt, so what's the rush? I mean, the forms and sets, "get done on both sides," as it is, either because a) the two sides are taught separately then integrated, as in Short 1, or b) the two sides are intergated into the form right away, as in Short 2.

    Come to think of it, it's been my experience that this sort of thing isn't accidental, when it appears in kenpo--I wonder if the difference in sidedness between Short 1 and Short 2 isn't a big hint about the way it 'spozed to be.

    Again, I guess at this point I don't see anything inherently wrong with it, provided that this ambidexterity business doesn't become an end in itself, even though it does seem to be out of line with the basic philosohpy and practice of kenpo. Of course, if the argument is only that one should practice both sides to get beyond the, "basics," faster, I do have real doubts about THAT notion...

    And not that I'm sure about this, but I have to add (me being me) that there ARE right ways and wrong ways to do things in the martial arts, as in the rest of life. Everybody's entitled to their opinion, no matter how boneheaded--but that's democracy, a political issue, NOT reality. (For instance, one is absolutely entitled to believe that, "intelligent design," is good science and to act on that belief, but it's still lousy science.) There're lots of areas in which we can by all means disagree, but somebody's right and somebody's wrong...it's just not clear to me that this is fer sure one of them.
    Well put, and I agree 100%.


    Jamie Seabrook
    www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

Remove Ads

Sponsored Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)