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Thread: Entering into a Technique

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    Default Entering into a Technique

    A recent discussion got me started thinking about how we enter into self defense techniques. By entry I mean, stepping towards or away from the attack, staying on the line of attack or moving off line, parrying or blocking.

    Looking at a step though punch, how do you decide which kind of entry best fits the situation?

    For example, you have the option of staying on the line of attack, but moving away, like in Delayed Sword, or staying on line and moving in like Five Swords, or moving off the opponent's line and making your own, like thundering hammers.

    Our entry into a technique will dictate our available targets and body mechanics.

    What are your thoughts?
    Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

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    Default Re: Entering into a Technique

    Quote Originally Posted by dubljay
    A recent discussion got me started thinking about how we enter into self defense techniques. By entry I mean, stepping towards or away from the attack, staying on the line of attack or moving off line, parrying or blocking.

    Looking at a step though punch, how do you decide which kind of entry best fits the situation?

    For example, you have the option of staying on the line of attack, but moving away, like in Delayed Sword, or staying on line and moving in like Five Swords, or moving off the opponent's line and making your own, like thundering hammers.

    Our entry into a technique will dictate our available targets and body mechanics.

    What are your thoughts?
    I think right off the bat you need to know what is around you (know where you can step). From there you should know what technique you are most comfortable with for that certain attack, than react.
    "To hear is to doubt. To see is to be deceived. But to feel is to believe." -- SGM Ed Parker

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    Default Re: Entering into a Technique

    Well, in GENERAL (always exceptions), I seem to prefer to step into something to show a bit of aggressiveness...an attacker wouldn't expect it from his (or her) intended victim.

    But as already mentioned, an assesment of the environment/situation would factor into how one will react
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    Arrow Re: Entering into a Technique

    Quote Originally Posted by Miyu
    Well, in GENERAL (always exceptions), I seem to prefer to step into something to show a bit of aggressiveness...an attacker wouldn't expect it from his (or her) intended victim.

    But as already mentioned, an assesment of the environment/situation would factor into how one will react
    I agree. IMHO, awareness of one's surroundings is paramount to how you will react. Like Miyu, I would probably step forward unless there was a wall or another large object in the way...or unless the attacker drew a weapon on me, especially a knife. Because bladed weapons can inflict more damage & are more psychologically intimidating than blunt weapons (like a fist or a stick), I would definitely create distance (since distance can be my best friend ) between myself & the attacker by stepping back or off the line of attack.
    The truly educated never graduate.
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    Default Re: Entering into a Technique

    Good advice, Gin. Although Im stupid and have no fear of knives, so I would also step into that situation too. Like an open hand strike, I can take the hit/slash on a non-essential part to get in closer and do my thang

    But again, only if the situation allows If I can disarm him before that, then SCORE!
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    Default Re: Entering into a Technique

    When to step in, when to step out? <shrug> As others mentioned, environment/surrounding situation are paramount. Where you are located in proximity to the attacker will definitely determine whether to step in or out. Presence of weapons will also change the dynamics. That's what I love about Kenpo--the ability to adapt to whatever is there.

    - Ceicei
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    Thumbs up Re: Entering into a Technique

    Quote Originally Posted by Ceicei
    That's what I love about Kenpo--the ability to adapt to whatever is there.- Ceicei
    Well said.
    The truly educated never graduate.
    "To understand the heart & mind of a person, look not at what they have already achieved, but what they aspire to do." -Kahlil Gibran

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    Default Re: Entering into a Technique

    Everyone state about stepping in and out, but what about to the 45's. I absolutly agree with the knowing the surrounding area while you make your decision on advancing or retreating, I find that when you step up on a 45 against a non martial artist or someone who trains in a very linear style they have never quite seen an attack done this way. Kenpo varies its life of attack defence nicely I think by allowing us to stay focused on our attacker from various angles
    "Say hello to Susan"
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    Default Re: Entering into a Technique

    I think it was just meant in a generally speaking manner. I would consider the 45's to have forward and backward motion, myself, and would lump them together as it pertains to this conversation. After all, it still has forwand and backward momentum.

    At least in my perspective. If Ive assumed incorrectly for anyone else, let them speak up
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    Default Re: Entering into a Technique

    I agree, but forward to 12 o'clock and forward to 1:30 or 10:30 are very different concepts of foreward. stepping on a 45 foreward diverts your opponents force and uses it against them by letting them continue their motion forward. Moving directly forward interrups their motion. Both need to be used in different scenarios
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    Default Re: Entering into a Technique

    The entry talk has been very interesting. I love reading all the tech talk on forums but I have a few questions for thought.



    Is the objective of learning all 16, 24, or 32 techniques in EPAK so you will be able to perform them verbatim when attacked on the street?



    Or, are we programming our bodies with responses to given attacks as well as developing a knowledge of motion?



    Does anyone really believe they are going to pull off an entire technique on the street?



    Or are defensive movements and combinations of strikes going to fly out of you unconsciously?



    Yours in Kenpo,



    Mike Guercio AKKI Westminster, MD

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    Default Re: Entering into a Technique

    None of the above.

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    Default Re: Entering into a Technique

    Well, OK. Don’t elaborate.

    Keep doing the coordination set and all will good in your lovely little world.

    Yours in Kenpo,

    Mike G


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    Default Re: Entering into a Technique

    I'd say that I think that technique in kenpo is a means to an end, not the end in itself: technique can be as much a dead end as merely repeating something like coordination sets over and over again would be, if anyone were silly enough to do such a thing. I'd also say that disdain for technique is a dead end too, as silly as training just for pure speed or pure coordination would be, if anyone were silly enough to do such a thing. And I'd even say that it might be smart for all of us--all of us!--to avoid jumping to conclusions about the training of people we've never met in our lives, let alone worked out with.

    In other words, Mr. Guercio, I meant exactly what I wrote in response to your rhetorical questions: the answer is none of the above, because I don't see any of them as the right questions to ask. To be honest and to admit that maybe I was being unfair, I thought that you weren't really asking questions at all: if that's the case and I'm just plain wrong to've read that way, my apologies.

    Better questions might include: a) to what extent do kenpo techniques, sets, forms, etc., teach some of the intangible aspects of self-defense (awareness, mind-set., etc.); b) where exactly does the idea that martial arts training simply converts us into machines that will always act in set ways come from? is it really the point of kenpo to install mechanical actions in people? c) would we be well-advised to look back and over to very traditional arts for what they can teach us about the goals of kenpo?

    I don't believe that general answers to such general questions are worth all that much, and I'd even ask, d) what limitations in the ways we think about kenpo get illustrated by the way the same old questions and the same old answers come up again and again and again?

    Sorry that you don't care for the way I write, or the way you think I think and train. Perhaps if you slowed down a little, you might even find that there are a lot of things on which we agree; but for now, I think I'll just drop out of a conversation that'll probably just turn pointless.

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    Lightbulb Re: Entering into a Technique

    Quote Originally Posted by Alleydog
    The entry talk has been very interesting. I love reading all the tech talk on forums but I have a few questions for thought.
    Is the objective of learning all 16, 24, or 32 techniques in EPAK so you will be able to perform them verbatim when attacked on the street?
    Or, are we programming our bodies with responses to given attacks as well as developing a knowledge of motion?
    Does anyone really believe they are going to pull off an entire technique on the street?
    Mike Guercio AKKI Westminster, MD
    I beleive it helps. Buying into fact that each technique will play out exactly how it will taugh will get you killed or seriously hurt. Each technique has almost what is a secret to master that will help all of your kenpo thereafter. Wheter it is how to do a certain strike from a different position, whatever. From meeting people I have seen that a lot of kenpoist are in kenpo because it works. It's analytical, and something that took a few minutes to lear will take years to understand. Want to see if a whole technique works? wait till some punk grabs you with a knife, suddenly just one technique may nto come to mind
    "Say hello to Susan"
    -SGM Ed Parker

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    Default Re: Entering into a Technique

    Robert,



    First off, I think you get it. I believe right or wrong most do not “get it”. The techniques can be a means to an end or we can be so caught up in the repetition in our training that we pigeon hole ourselves into believing in an ideal world were we can instantly pick the right technique and angle of entry for any given situation and it will work every time.

    Yes pure speed, pure coordination or pure anything in our training is stifling to our over all development. You can also be so traditional in your training that you can not open your mind and think outside of your routine.



    Yes, my question was meant to be somewhat rhetorical but I was curious how people would answer. See, I still have faith that there are some out there in kenpo land who can think logically, ask what ifs and formulate physically as well as mentally.

    It was pure curiosity on my part and maybe that is bad too.



    Please don’t jump to the conclusion that I dislike your writing, your ideas about kenpo or you.

    You write brilliantly, even if I do disagree with you at times. I wish I had a 1/8 of your writing ability and I'm sure so do many that read my posts.HEE HEE

    I certainly didn’t mean to judge yours or anyone else’s training but don’t assume you know how I train either.

    My concern is with my and my students training so questioning your methods for criticisms is not my attention. I am always curiosity about others training since you may have an idea or a method that will help me.



    Yours in Kenpo,



    Mike G. AKKI Westminster, MD

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    Default Re: Entering into a Technique

    Quote Originally Posted by Alleydog
    Robert,



    First off, I think you get it. I believe right or wrong most do not “get it”. The techniques can be a means to an end or we can be so caught up in the repetition in our training that we pigeon hole ourselves into believing in an ideal world were we can instantly pick the right technique and angle of entry for any given situation and it will work every time.
    Thanks! I agree with you as well with what you mean as being a means to an end. The fact that anyone would beleive one technique so wholly that they neglect to see that there is always another option is their own pitfall.

    I like to stir the pot as well. There are many Martial Artist who are unable to see things from the perspective of someone from aother style or even another lineage in the same style. It is nice to see that good ol' common sense still prevails.


    Cheers'
    "Say hello to Susan"
    -SGM Ed Parker

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    Default Re: Entering into a Technique

    When deciding how to enter a technicque ( I like that phraseology), there are a few things to consider. First, it is important to remember that Mr. Parker stated that the techniques are ideas, not hard and fast rules. Remember also, the eights. We have eight basic directions of movement and eight areas to the web of knowledge. The WOK, characterizes the attack. Within each of those categories we have techniques that consider the directions. Without playing the "What If" game, the next thing to consider are the zones. Which direction will most allow you to control the height, width, and depth of your attacker. Which is most likely to put you into the zone of obscurity? Which is most likely to grant you sanctuary? Absolutely, we also have to examine also the eight considerations, what is the environment? What maneuvers are available? This is just touching on two. When confronted with an attacker, we have two options, fight or flight, we have to decide which is more viable, and do we need to use one to use the other? I prefer to evade the initial assault if at all possible to determine the attacker style. Once that has been accomplished, I can determine which of the eight directions will work best for me and thus decide which is my best course of action or counter attack.
    Just because you do something one way, does not mean that everyone else does it that way, or that it is even the correct way.

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    Default Re: Entering into a Technique



    I agree the WOK is a great tool to categorize a given attack and the response to that attack.

    But if the techniques are ideas as Mr. Parker said shouldn’t there be a greater focus give to the “what if game” and formulation if we are indeed developing instinctive reactions?



    How much of your class dedicated to doing impromptu attacks from various positions?

    I have always practiced and ran my students through impromptu attacks. And, I feel it has helped them tremendously to develop spontaneity.



    Naturally, you have to practice the techniques and study the principles to program yourself to execute correctly but if you never work with impromptu attacks other than “what ifs”, then how do know how your going to react?



    Mr. Parker said that he did want robots on the mat but thinking practitioners.

    It is very easy to take what your instructor says as gospel and not question.

    So, I say study hard, workout hard, play the “what if game” and think every time you train.



    Yours in Kenpo,




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    Default Re: Entering into a Technique

    Quote Originally Posted by Alleydog

    I agree the WOK is a great tool to categorize a given attack and the response to that attack.

    But if the techniques are ideas as Mr. Parker said shouldn’t there be a greater focus give to the “what if game” and formulation if we are indeed developing instinctive reactions?

    At certain point yes, but not until the ideal phase is actually understood. Without understanding the techniques or ideas, if you will, the "what if game" is not really an efficient tool.
    How much of your class dedicated to doing impromptu attacks from various positions?
    I call that sparring class. I encourage my students to apply the techniques in their arsenal before resorting to anything else.
    I have always practiced and ran my students through impromptu attacks. And, I feel it has helped them tremendously to develop spontaneity.

    So will running the base curriculuum at speed with controlled power. I have my students use about 50% power to the body and to alter the the target when attacking the face.
    Naturally, you have to practice the techniques and study the principles to program yourself to execute correctly but if you never work with impromptu attacks other than “what ifs”, then how do know how your going to react?

    That depends entirely on what point you introduce your students to it. Examine what the techniques actually teach with the opening foot maneuver and block/strike
    Mr. Parker said that he did want robots on the mat but thinking practitioners.
    This is absolutely true, but when a skilled fighter is attacking you, how much thinking time do you have? You have to have drilled to the point of having automatic movement.
    It is very easy to take what your instructor says as gospel and not question.
    That is not learning, that is mimicing
    So, I say study hard, workout hard, play the “what if game” and think every time you train.



    Yours in Kenpo,


    A very good idea. Again, you can play the what if game too soon.....
    Just because you do something one way, does not mean that everyone else does it that way, or that it is even the correct way.

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