Results 1 to 19 of 19

Thread: Applying Defensive Techniques in Sparring

  1. #1
    rockky is offline
    KenpoTalk
    White Belt
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    3
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts

    Default Applying Defensive Techniques in Sparring

    We have a long list of defensive techniques yet I'm wondering about its spontaenous application when sparring.

    Does anyone have any experience or suggestions with what I'm talking about.

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to rockky For This Useful Post:

    Brother John (05-10-2007)

  3. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    1,818
    Thanks
    984
    Thanked 337 Times in 234 Posts

    Default Re: Applying Defensive Techniques in Sparring

    I'm not really sure what you are talking about. Running a whole technique? Not likely. But you should see elements/parts/moves from techniques in sparring matches.

    Dan C
    There are things that are worth knowing for their own sake, worth finding for the pure joy of discovery.

  4. #3
    Sentinel is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. Orange Belt
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    At home, playing chess with a bust of Julius Caesar
    Posts
    199
    Thanks
    32
    Thanked 97 Times in 46 Posts

    Default Re: Applying Defensive Techniques in Sparring

    What type of sparring are you talking about? Point/continuous tournament-style?

    Throat chop, eye poke, groin shot, elbow base of skull, stomp kidney, cross out. I do that all the time in sparring.

  5. #4
    Dharma_Punk is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. Yellow Belt
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    87
    Thanks
    25
    Thanked 19 Times in 12 Posts

    Default Re: Applying Defensive Techniques in Sparring

    Quote Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
    Throat chop, eye poke, groin shot, elbow base of skull, stomp kidney, cross out. I do that all the time in sparring.
    Haha, good point.

    I very rarely can pull off a whole technique, although it might just be because I lack the technical skill and speed this far to pull it off. I do however often manage to get in the beginning of a technique. Parry, chop, kick, etc. Also, it's my understanding that this is how Kenpo was designed? The whole technique was never meant to be executed, it's just designed with a margin for error. If the beginning of the technique works, there is no need to go on to the rest of it.
    "Given enough time, any man may master the physical. With enough knowledge, any man may become wise. It is the true warrior who can master both....and surpass the result." - Tien T'ai
    "If you train very hard, you will be very good." - Remy Presas

  6. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Orlando, Florida
    Posts
    6,026
    Thanks
    1,199
    Thanked 1,520 Times in 909 Posts

    Default Re: Applying Defensive Techniques in Sparring

    Quote Originally Posted by rockky View Post
    We have a long list of defensive techniques yet I'm wondering about its spontaenous application when sparring.

    Does anyone have any experience or suggestions with what I'm talking about.
    I think I know what you're asking.

    Executing an entire self-defense technique is not likely when sparring; whether it be continuous, point driven, etc...

    The reason being the one you're sparring with expects you to attack! You view one another as adversaries, usually in the context of sport. You prepare and get "set" to fight.

    The application of self-defense techniques deals with an opponent being a serious threat or issueing an unprovoked attack. The attacker expects you to be a victim and submit in some way. They aren't expecting you to defend yourself and you use that to your advantage by surprising them with a blinding array of nastiness when they attempt to do you harm. You don't allow them to telegraph your intent to lay a beat-down on them by dropping back into a "fighting stance" If/when you establish your base it usually is accompanied by an offensive/defensive maneuver.

    However, as previously stated, sparring is one of many useful tools you can use to develop and sharpen certain skill sets and you can incorporate different aspects of self-defense techniques. But it isn't quite the same thing.

    IMHO
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

  7. The Following User Says Thank You to Celtic_Crippler For This Useful Post:

    Mikael151 (05-11-2007)

  8. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Springfield, Missouri
    Posts
    1,545
    Thanks
    1,573
    Thanked 1,838 Times in 907 Posts

    Default Re: Applying Defensive Techniques in Sparring

    Quote Originally Posted by rockky View Post
    We have a long list of defensive techniques yet I'm wondering about its spontaenous application when sparring.

    Does anyone have any experience or suggestions with what I'm talking about.
    I also posted this in response to this question on Martial Talk.


    The first thing to point out is that the self defense techniques are not designed to be used in sparring. Sparring is a very specific combat style activity which has very specific restrictions. Self defense techniques are designed for a different situation with different rules.

    That being said, I felt the same way while watching people spar in a Kenpo school. It does look like generic punch kick karate, and has very little to do with Kenpo. So I took some kenpo techniques and taught them in my sparring class where my students could drill them repeatedly and try to use them in combat.

    Some good examples are using Delayed Sword or the first part of Attacking Mace against a jab, and using Deflecting Hammer against a kick, but changing the elbow strike to what is commonly reffered to as a "reverse punch" or "cross."

    The key is to pick one technique, and then have the students spar. One student uses only the attack for that technique, over and over and over. The other student uses only the specific assigned defense. After a few minutes, switch roles. Repeat this process with two or three techniques. Then have the students do the drill, this time using any of the attacks you've practiced, but only those attacks, while the other student uses any of the prescribed defenses. Finally, let them spar unrestricted, but have them focus on using the practiced defenses whenever the specific attacks are presented.

    The key here is that the students have to drill these defenses against attacks. If they've practiced kenpo enough, these things will happen naturally, but it's easy, even for an experienced kenpo practitioner to fall into the trap of using basic sparring maneuvers when playing that game. I always insisted my students fire at least two strikes at a time, students firing single strikes were warned, and on some nights when it was our focus, we would drop for pushups whenever we fired one strike with no follow up, even me. One strike will fail 99% of the time. Two strikes have a fifty fifty chance of success, but three or more strikes will succeed 99% of the time. Combinations, practice, and repetition is how you get better at sparring, and working your kenpo into your sparring is the same.

    Ultimately, sparring is an intermediate drill. As students progress in their training, they should move past karate style sparring into continuous sparring, and eventually into fully integrated combat style activities, involving stand up and ground grappling as well as street techniques and targets, of course with control. During these activities, you will see more self defense technique material because these activities are more closely related to the arena for which that material was created.


    -Rob
    "All the time you're arguing over, is this kenpo, is that kenpo, you could be training!"

    -Senior Instructor Bobby Thomas

  9. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Thesemindz For This Useful Post:

    Blindside (05-10-2007),Doc (05-10-2007),Martin Seck (05-10-2007),nelson (01-02-2012)

  10. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    SpoVaWA
    Posts
    4,387
    Thanks
    1,765
    Thanked 1,793 Times in 1,309 Posts

    Default Re: Applying Defensive Techniques in Sparring

    This is a great time to introduce Family related attacks.
    Sean

  11. #8
    don bohrer is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. Orange Belt
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    San Antonio, TX
    Posts
    168
    Thanks
    109
    Thanked 51 Times in 40 Posts

    Default Re: Applying Defensive Techniques in Sparring

    I like to say each art fights its own best.

    don (el paso)
    Daffy, fighting with his $1.25 quarter staff : "Ho! Haha! Guard! Turn! Parry! Dodge! Spin! Ha! Thrust!" (quarter staff bounces off log, bending his beak. He straightens it back to normal, and starts speaking to himself) "Something's amiss here... hmm, let me run through it. Ho, haha, guard, turn, parry, dodge, spin, ha, thrust." (beak bends again) "Got it." (straightens beak, and starts his fighting moves again.) "Ho! Haha! Guard! Turn! Parry! Dodge! Spin!"

  12. #9
    bujuts is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Blue Belt
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    387
    Thanks
    13
    Thanked 299 Times in 164 Posts

    Default Re: Applying Defensive Techniques in Sparring

    I'm of the opinion that the techniques teach particular lessons but are too complicated to store as autonomic responses - nor would I want to. We've all been over the benefits of training techniques, no point in repeating that now. For myself, I keep the list of principles I expect to realistically perform under combat stress very simple - they are the Sets. Everything in a technique is founded in a Set (at least for us), the Sets are comprised of basics. I don't expect to execute a technique as written in response to a particular attack anymore than I expect to quote a scholarly passage in response to a particular question. The passage was written for me to learn from it, but the answer I give to a question will be in my own words, at the best of my capacity to understand. Better to say "see spot run" very well than to recite the first line of the Gettysburg address when its neither appropriate, nor fully articulate.

    Basics. Its very simple. Attack with basics. Tecniques offer specific lessons of basics, but we must learn to speak on our own. This does not mean typical kickboxing-type sparring (free form, for many, looks like kickboxing), this means developing the capacity for innovation with the same level of sophistication found in the techniques, and with the mind free to fully engage to an aggressive attacking state. I am of the opinion that development of this principled sponteneity must begin at white belt, not be an academic exercise for us once we've memorized 100+ techniques.

    Your thoughts?

    Great topic.

    cheers,

    Steven Brown
    UKF

  13. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    2,361
    Thanks
    841
    Thanked 480 Times in 291 Posts

    Default Re: Applying Defensive Techniques in Sparring

    Sparring and fighting or self defense are not the same.

    Each teach different things as stated above.

    One is a game ... one is for keeps.

    Be careful to not fall into the "going into sparring mode" on the street ... your opponent isn't.

    However spontaneous self defense practice is invaluable and can train your mind and body to react as you should on the street. Still teaching all the timing and reaction that sparring does.

    Maybe not a popular opinion but it should be
    PARKER - HERMAN - SECK

  14. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Martin Seck For This Useful Post:

    Celtic_Crippler (05-10-2007),Doc (05-10-2007),MarkC (01-02-2012),MARSHALLS KENPO (06-07-2007),nelson (01-02-2012),parkerkarate (05-11-2007)

  15. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Wichita, Kansas, United States
    Posts
    2,467
    Thanks
    2,019
    Thanked 1,277 Times in 709 Posts

    Default Re: Applying Defensive Techniques in Sparring

    Quote Originally Posted by rockky View Post
    We have a long list of defensive techniques yet I'm wondering about its spontaenous application when sparring.

    Does anyone have any experience or suggestions with what I'm talking about.
    ABSOLUTELY!!!!!
    There's a technique in the AKKI that my best friend recomended to me a while back that he's used to great avail in sparing situations. "Avenging Pendulum". According to him he needed little else to overcome kickers!!!

    I'll contact him and let him come here to tell you more...

    Sean?

    Your Brother
    John
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    ((if you use "FaceBook", look me up there by name))
    "Striving for success without hard work is like trying to harvest where you haven't planted"
    ~ David Bly

  16. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Orlando, Florida
    Posts
    6,026
    Thanks
    1,199
    Thanked 1,520 Times in 909 Posts

    Default Re: Applying Defensive Techniques in Sparring

    Quote Originally Posted by katsudo_karate View Post
    Sparring and fighting or self defense are not the same.

    Each teach different things as stated above.

    One is a game ... one is for keeps.

    Be careful to not fall into the "going into sparring mode" on the street ... your opponent isn't.

    However spontaneous self defense practice is invaluable and can train your mind and body to react as you should on the street. Still teaching all the timing and reaction that sparring does.

    Maybe not a popular opinion but it should be
    The "Circle of Humiliation" comes to mind.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

  17. The Following User Says Thank You to Celtic_Crippler For This Useful Post:

    Martin Seck (05-10-2007)

  18. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    2,361
    Thanks
    841
    Thanked 480 Times in 291 Posts

    Default Re: Applying Defensive Techniques in Sparring

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    The "Circle of Humiliation" comes to mind.
    Exactly and also the single drill where you close your eyes the person moves around you and when you count out loud to 3 you open your eyes and here comes an attack! LOL.
    PARKER - HERMAN - SECK

  19. #14
    SifuDangeRuss is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. Green Belt
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    The Soggy Pacific Northwest
    Posts
    602
    Thanks
    28
    Thanked 152 Times in 78 Posts

    Thumbs up Re: Applying Defensive Techniques in Sparring

    One of the major systemic changes Mr Dimmick made at one point, was to append an Attack Foot Pattern to all of the traditional punch techniques, so as to be able to apply them to freestyle.

    So a basic technique like 5 swords would be executed in the following manner.

    1) From freestyle position right foot forward.

    2) Short step lead leg, Right short inward block to opponent's lead hand, right outward chop

    3) left foot crosses over, as you execute a left...(substitute punch or palm for the poke here) palm strike

    4) Continue by stepping out with the right foot as you execute a right uppercut and check opponent's lead hand.

    So effectively it's 5 Swords with a Step, cross, step foot pattern. This is essentially done in a sideways run. You should find that many techniques can be modified thusly. Think Bending Twin Kimono for example. Now if the technique calls for a greater number of strikes, you can append a 2nd Attack Foot Pattern to the sequence. This gets you to use the technique in a forward...(or if you're creative while retreating) foot pattern, usable as a competitive tournament type technique.

    Mr Dimmick chose to teach this method from the very beginning. I felt it was a bit much to try to get your average, right off the street white belt, who is just learning his basic Alphabet of Motion, to try to execute it while moving. So while I endorse utilizing the multiple Strike Kenpo attacks, I generally don't introduce this until the students are somewhat more advanced. It only makes sense, to use our core theories everywhere we can. Why respond with monosyllabic strike-counterstrike....which allows your opponent the opportunity to respond in a like manner....when you can dominate him with our superior Vocabulary of Motion. I have found a great deal of personal success using this concept.
    NEW and IMPROVED Non-Chunky Version!

    [SIGPIC]http://www.angelfire.com/wa/dangerusskenpo[/SIGPIC]

    I only know enough, to understand how much I don't know

    http://www.angelfire.com/wa/dangerusskenpo

  20. The Following User Says Thank You to SifuDangeRuss For This Useful Post:

    Martin Seck (05-10-2007)

  21. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    2,361
    Thanks
    841
    Thanked 480 Times in 291 Posts

    Default Re: Applying Defensive Techniques in Sparring

    Good to see you posting Russ ... always enjoy your input.
    PARKER - HERMAN - SECK

  22. #16
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Baltimore, Maryland
    Posts
    2,270
    Thanks
    237
    Thanked 113 Times in 95 Posts

    Default Re: Applying Defensive Techniques in Sparring

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    The "Circle of Humiliation" comes to mind.

    O my I was watching the Homecoming DVD a month ago or so and it had that on there. That looked awsome....hmmmmmmm....tuesday nights class.....hmmmmm.
    "To hear is to doubt. To see is to be deceived. But to feel is to believe." -- SGM Ed Parker

    "Sic vis pacem parabellum - If you want peace, prepare for war." -- "The Punisher"


    "Praying Mantis, very good. . . For catching bugs." --Jackie Chan

    "A horse stance is great for taking a dump" --Jet Li

  23. #17
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Las Vegas
    Posts
    1,383
    Thanks
    1,964
    Thanked 473 Times in 341 Posts

    Default Re: Applying Defensive Techniques in Sparring

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    I think I know what you're asking.

    Executing an entire self-defense technique is not likely when sparring; whether it be continuous, point driven, etc...

    The reason being the one you're sparring with expects you to attack! You view one another as adversaries, usually in the context of sport. You prepare and get "set" to fight.

    The application of self-defense techniques deals with an opponent being a serious threat or issueing an unprovoked attack. The attacker expects you to be a victim and submit in some way. They aren't expecting you to defend yourself and you use that to your advantage by surprising them with a blinding array of nastiness when they attempt to do you harm. You don't allow them to telegraph your intent to lay a beat-down on them by dropping back into a "fighting stance" If/when you establish your base it usually is accompanied by an offensive/defensive maneuver.

    However, as previously stated, sparring is one of many useful tools you can use to develop and sharpen certain skill sets and you can incorporate different aspects of self-defense techniques. But it isn't quite the same thing.

    IMHO
    Exactly. In sparring, the element of surprise is gone. Now, there are ways to bring your sparring into a self-defense situation. That's where grafting helps.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Michael Huffman
    1st Black, AKKI
    www.akki.com

  24. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Long Beach Ca
    Posts
    3,204
    Thanks
    1,121
    Thanked 1,131 Times in 850 Posts

    Default Re: Applying Defensive Techniques in Sparring

    Quote Originally Posted by rockky View Post
    We have a long list of defensive techniques yet I'm wondering about its spontaenous application when sparring.

    Does anyone have any experience or suggestions with what I'm talking about.

    I use any/all of my defensive techs all the time when sparring.So do my students and clients.I have aspects of my training classes where running the whole arsenal of techs they have against whatever attacks is a featured and accented lesson for the whole week.Lotsa fun.Lotsa sweat.Losta amazement.However,all of my techs have been functionalized in THE ATACX GYM way...meaning that there is literally no part of any and all of my Kenpo that hasn't been tested against live resistance FOR YEARS in the following primary ranges and instances of motion: rolls,falls,standing range,clinch,seated,kneeling,ground,armed (including firearms),multifight,escape,rescue,escape and rescue,rolls into and out of the above,and infinite permutations of all of the above.The results are very empirical,very fast,very safe,very fun.

    I note that you used the phrase "defensive techniques" in your post.For us? We drop the term "defensive"...as there are good and solid and plenty reasons to strike preemptively,depending upon the circumstances.If a group of rowdies confront you and make it clear and plain that they mean you harm? Striking first is a purrty good idea.If you come upon a conflict and some innocent is being stomped out and beaten on by one or more BGs and one of them grabs a bat or weapon or whatever with clear intent on harming their downed prey,the BG doesn't see you,you don't have time to call the cops or the cops won't arrive prior to say the BG puttin boot to KO'd head of prone innocent? Coming up behind the BG and puntin those nads might be a pretty good idea.If somebody is menacing your daughter verbally then moves to grab her hair or maybe some fool is literally in motion prepping to kidnap some kid or some innocent? Preemptive annihilation may be the order of the day here.

    There are many maaany instances that swinging FIRST is not only important but vital right and necessary.So we teach this lesson and the attendant mindset.

    If you want to take a look-see at my videos? Click the link to my YT Channel in my sig.Hope I've been helpful.Thanks.

  25. #19
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Long Beach Ca
    Posts
    3,204
    Thanks
    1,121
    Thanked 1,131 Times in 850 Posts

    Default Re: Applying Defensive Techniques in Sparring

    Quote Originally Posted by nelson View Post
    I like the phrase "preemptive annihilation"! LOL!! My late Sensei, Mike Sanders, put it this way, "When in doubt, strike out."
    I really would have liked Mr. Sanders, man...he will be missed!

Remove Ads

Sponsored Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Follow Up
    By parkerkarate in forum Parkers Kenpo (EPAK) - General
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: 07-08-2012, 12:52 PM
  2. Sparring techniques
    By parkerkarate in forum EPAK Technical Studies
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 12-11-2006, 11:36 AM
  3. Sparring techniques
    By mord_sith_14 in forum Kenpo General
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 09-01-2006, 01:52 PM
  4. Replies: 3
    Last Post: 03-22-2006, 05:21 PM