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Thread: Forward Bow

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    Default Forward Bow

    This is something that I've been thinking about for a couple of weeks now, ever since I saw someone post a question on the Kenponet; at what point do you begin to teach a modified forward bow stance for striking? When you do begin to teach this how do you address major concerns like structural alignment, power displacement (i.e. generation, loss, splitting forces, etc.), and finally actual striking. Obviously this is one of those subjects that people feel strongly one way or the other about, while others may think that this is a simple subject that requires no detailed discussion.

    The reason I bring this up is because lately we, as in AKKI practitioners, have been catching a lot of flak for not explaining IN DETAIL why or how we do certain things. I thought this would at least be an interesting discussion, since most of us probably use the modified FB more often than the rigid forward bow.

    Basically the argument for using the Forward bow is that it allows for greater extension of the back hand (i.e. if in a RNB, it would be your left hand), as well as greater stability (structural brace off of the back leg). These would be the concerns that should be addressed, among others, when examining this situation. I'll certainly be happy to post my limited understanding on the subject when I have a little more time, but for now I would be interested in knowing how others approach this.

    p.s. I believe this question was initially brought up by Karateminister on kenponet about 2 weeks ago, so if you don't like the question..... blame it on him

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    Default Re: Forward Bow

    We begin a forward bow at white belt.. the 2nd EPAK tec of Alternating Maces utilizes the forward bow when delivering the rear arm punch.. showing how much more extension there is when utilizing the FB to a beginning student starts them on a good solid base as they progress through the ranks. If they lean into the bow, their alignment gets thrown off, and the tec may fail them etc.. Proper body mechanics, alignment and basic terminology must be shown for the beginning student to know of. As they progress, more sophisticated information is given regarding the same stance or tec..until it they know it.. continuing so they actually understand it.

    Just my thoughts

    ~Tess

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    Default Re: Forward Bow

    Thread moved to Parker's Kenpo General

    ~Tess
    - KT Admin

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    Lightbulb Re: Forward Bow

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpo Yahoo
    At what point do you begin to teach a modified forward bow stance for striking?

    When you do begin to teach this how do you address major concerns like structural alignment, power displacement (i.e. generation, loss, splitting forces, etc.), and finally actual striking?

    Basically the argument for using the Forward bow is that it allows for greater extension of the back hand (i.e. if in a RNB, it would be your left hand), as well as greater stability (structural brace off of the back leg).

    p.s. I believe this question was initially brought up by Karateminister on kenponet about 2 weeks ago, so if you don't like the question..... blame it on him
    Hey Yahoo,

    I feel that the student must grasp the concepts and obtain a working knowledge of the forward bow before the modified stances are taught. Some will learn sooner; however I do not know if I would actually teach this concept until the student has earned his Orange belt(I may let them know that it is coming, however). I guess this attitude coinsides with my thought that begining students get begining concepts. Officially, the concepts of modified stances are not brought up in the AKKI until the Blue reference book, but it does allude that the student may be using these stances already.

    At the other forum, it has been stated that the forward bow(FB) is nothing more than a Platonic archetype that really doesn't come up in reality. Although, there may be exceptions to the rule, I would have to agree.

    For example, I have coached several teams in baseball through out my life. In a drill called Soft-Toss, I teach hitters to exagerate their swing in a downward angle. Why? Because a hitter naturally wants to swing upward. This drill is a tool used to counter-act a natural, unwanted tendency, and to level out the swing. In a game situation, would I want a hitter to actually swing down? Maybe if I wanted to bounce the ball over a fielder after drawing him in by showing a bunt. But again, in most situations, I would not want the hitter to exagerate his swing in a game.

    Likewise, I feel that the full FB can be used as a tool to teach the beginner how to engage their hips. However, in reality, a full FB may not be needed as the student learns to chisel out the unnecessary motion(unnecessary motion being defined as extra motion used but not necessary to get the job done). "You don't need a sledge hammer to drive in a tac" or a nail for that matter. However, if a sledge hammer is needed, use it!

    As far as losing power, I believe one can compensate any substantial power loss through proper body alignment, forward projection, acceleration and the use of marriage of gravity.

    If I need greater extension, I would include a push-drag to get the desired penetration or damage or go ahead and use the FB in this case.

    Concerning a bracing angle, if I need it, again, I'll use it. Isn't part of mastering kenpo knowing what tools you need to get the job done? Otherwise, I feel that we would look more like traditional Shotokan fighters - burying and grounding everything to it's maximum capacity.

    Just an opinion that works for me,
    Joseph

    p.s. Yahoo, I may have started this discussion on another forum, but this sin here is all yours. Ok, "Adam?" Signed, "Eve."
    Last edited by karateminister; 08-23-2005 at 11:40 AM.

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    Default Re: Forward Bow

    Wow, I think I can actually hear the crickets chirping..... forums been kinda dead lately.

    Perhaps if I were to put this into some context it would be helpful. Let's take a look at Five Swords. During the transition from the initial block through the first 2-3 strikes, depending on which variation you execute, do you stress a proper neutral bow to forward bow transitition? How do you alter this transition from what you would teach a Yellow belt learning the orange curriculum, to maybe the way YOU, personally, would execute or teach this move?

    My concern about moving into a solid forward bow is two fold. First, at least to me, the transition seems slower than using the modified stance, and second it seems that the transition from forward bow back to neutral bow, as in the uppercut in Five swords, would have you transferring weight away from your strike which means you are splitting your forces (i.e. losing power) I'm just curious how others address this particular situation.

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    Default Re: Forward Bow

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpo Yahoo
    ...My concern about moving into a solid forward bow is two fold. First, at least to me, the transition seems slower than using the modified stance, and second it seems that the transition from forward bow back to neutral bow, as in the uppercut in Five swords, would have you transferring weight away from your strike which means you are splitting your forces (i.e. losing power) I'm just curious how others address this particular situation.
    Sir,
    I might be reading into your statement in=correctly, but I can't grasp something here.
    Are you saying you don't transfer from forward back to neutral for the uppercut?
    If that is the case I disagree with you - if there is no transfer of stance there is a serious lack of power with the uppercut because of lack of rotation and torque. Please explain as I may have misunderstood your point.

    Respectfully,

    jonah

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    Default Re: Forward Bow

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpo Yahoo
    Wow, I think I can actually hear the crickets chirping..... forums been kinda dead lately.

    Perhaps if I were to put this into some context it would be helpful. Let's take a look at Five Swords. During the transition from the initial block through the first 2-3 strikes, depending on which variation you execute, do you stress a proper neutral bow to forward bow transitition? How do you alter this transition from what you would teach a Yellow belt learning the orange curriculum, to maybe the way YOU, personally, would execute or teach this move?

    My concern about moving into a solid forward bow is two fold. First, at least to me, the transition seems slower than using the modified stance, and second it seems that the transition from forward bow back to neutral bow, as in the uppercut in Five swords, would have you transferring weight away from your strike which means you are splitting your forces (i.e. losing power) I'm just curious how others address this particular situation.
    Speaking of Forward bows in Five Swords, After the upper cutt, I like to Cheat back with my left leg into a a left forward bow thrusting left chop instead of just flapping the left for clearing and positioning were the opponent comming forward a cheat back onto the ball of the foot is required. With the modified short stance you can plant launch (bennefit of shallow foward bow) or just push of the ball of your foot for timming reasons. Its all good.
    Sean
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    Default Re: Forward Bow

    Just FYI:

    1. The proper sequence for stances in Five Swords is: a) neutral bow (with double block); b) modified neutral bow (settling with hand-sword); c) forward bow (with heel palm-claw); d) neutral bow that's more or less a horse stance (with uppercut); e) left foot steps to 4:30 into a R. forward bow; f) pivot to neutral bow (with hand-sword); g) forward bow (with left heel-palm; h) right reverse bow.

    2. If you look at that sequence carefully, you'll see that the modifications of neutral bow, forward bow, as well as cheat steps, etc., are already there.

    3. Students should be taught the sequence exactly so that later they have a sort of "Platonic ideal," to refer back to, one that acts as a base for all their modifications. Nor should advanced people simply throw out the plain vanilla forward bow.

    4. All stance work involves trade-offs among power, mobility, reaching targets, protecting one's own targets, range control, etc. While these trade-offs should be made, students who don't learn forward bows don't learn power, just as students who don't learn a horse stance don't learn stances and also don't learn power.

    5. ALL good martial arts teach settling, and a kind of, "immobility," from which real power is generated. They just do it in different ways.

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    Question Re: Forward Bow

    good topic....
    Just wanting everyones opinion, when generating power would you guys think that power generates from inches and movement within the feet?

    Or is the footwork and stances used to faciliate motion and power generated from the hips?

    If the power and energy generation is properly enforced from the hips are the feet as important to an advanced practitioner?

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    Default Re: Forward Bow

    hello????? man have I been blacklisted??
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    Default Re: Forward Bow

    Quote Originally Posted by rmcr
    3. Students should be taught the sequence exactly so that later they have a sort of "Platonic ideal," to refer back to, one that acts as a base for all their modifications. Nor should advanced people simply throw out the plain vanilla forward bow.

    4. All stance work involves trade-offs among power, mobility, reaching targets, protecting one's own targets, range control, etc. While these trade-offs should be made, students who don't learn forward bows don't learn power, just as students who don't learn a horse stance don't learn stances and also don't learn power.
    In #4 you make a good point. I think that we should always be studying what you are trying to accomplish w/a certain segment of motion from each technique and look at what you are trading and what you are getting from your stancework to make certain your methods are suited to meet your aims.

    in #3: Exactly, on all points. Though I don't think that a person can't gain "power" w/out the horse stance... I do agree that it's a valuable learning/training tool. Also a good point: the "by the book" techniques from w/in the curriculum shouldn't be "messed with" by students. They are standards and landmarks: points of reference. If your points of reference shift with whims....then there is no 'art' to be studied. Those who set up the techniques and systems we use knew what they were doing. As the student gets 'advanced' (and lots of people differ on just what constitutes 'advanced') they'll formulate and tweek to their hearts content...but that standard needs to be kept firmly intact so that the lessons it imparts can continue.

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    Default Re: Forward Bow

    Quote Originally Posted by Hunter
    hello????? man have I been blacklisted??
    Wha???


    huh?????????


    ..........who said that?
    I don't hear anything, do you guys????




    HA!!!


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    Default Re: Forward Bow

    Quote Originally Posted by Hunter
    good topic....
    Just wanting everyones opinion, when generating power would you guys think that power generates from inches and movement within the feet?

    Or is the footwork and stances used to faciliate motion and power generated from the hips?

    If the power and energy generation is properly enforced from the hips are the feet as important to an advanced practitioner?

    I think that real power comes from a confluence of forces.... all of the parts of the body working in harmony to produce the greatest effect and get the most bang for your buck. Feet, knees, hips, waist, shoulder, elbow, wrist.....POW!!! I don't think we can ever say that we can take out even one link in the chain, no matter how skilled one becomes; especially the feet.

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    Default Re: Forward Bow

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpo Yahoo
    This is something that I've been thinking about for a couple of weeks now, ever since I saw someone post a question on the Kenponet; at what point do you begin to teach a modified forward bow stance for striking? When you do begin to teach this how do you address major concerns like structural alignment, power displacement (i.e. generation, loss, splitting forces, etc.), and finally actual striking.

    The reason I bring this up is because lately we, as in AKKI practitioners, have been catching a lot of flak for not explaining IN DETAIL why or how we do certain things. I thought this would at least be an interesting discussion, since most of us probably use the modified FB more often than the rigid forward bow.

    p.s. I believe this question was initially brought up by Karateminister on kenponet about 2 weeks ago, so if you don't like the question..... blame it on him
    I blame Karateminister for anything I can!!!!

    hahaha....

    But no, really... I'd say that it might be a good generalized rule to begin a student on forming a good Modified F-B....probably early in their Orange Belt material. No doubt before then they'd see me and/or Brian executing the Modified prior to that...but we'll definitely emphasize a progression in learning them: Standard Forward Bow first, and once that's down pat and they understand how to use it and what it gives them... then we can begin to help them learn to aquire a Modified F-B and learn what THAT gives them. One guy that just started up with us is in his 50's and was a pro-boxer years ago. We have to emphasize "HEEL DOWN" as much as possible so that he gains an understanding for the important structure of the stance. We've told him that later we will get into the modified version and make good use of it.

    See I think that it's important to work with the standard first and really be able to form it well First: because it teaches you the important structure alignment that you can then take with you later when you begin to modify it. If someone were to just go Straight to the modified.... then why call it "Modified"... it'd just be the standard then. I think that the standard forward bow helps the body emphasize those alignments...and this gets carried over later to the modified version.

    Good topic!

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    Default Re: Forward Bow

    Quote Originally Posted by Hunter
    hello????? man have I been blacklisted??
    Its a mass consiracy. The entire board is now just pointing and laughing at you

    "look at him, posting away while no one is gonna respond. We're making him talk to himself, HA HA"

    Just kidding Couldn't resist
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    Default Re: Forward Bow

    Quote Originally Posted by Miyu
    Just kidding Couldn't resist
    You're a bad Bad girl!

    Thank you



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    Default Re: Forward Bow

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother John
    You're a bad Bad girl!

    Thank you



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    Default Re: Forward Bow

    In addition to the usefulness of the forward bow in giving us greater power and reach when hitting an opponent, forward bow's work as effective bracing angles and buckles, leg checks, and even breaks.


    Jamie Seabrook
    www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

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    Default Re: Forward Bow

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook
    In addition to the usefulness of the forward bow in giving us greater power and reach when hitting an opponent, forward bow's work as effective bracing angles and buckles, leg checks, and even breaks.


    Jamie Seabrook
    www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com
    I must be having a a brain fart. Can you name any techniques that teach this bracing angle?
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    Default Re: Forward Bow

    At yellow belt: Alt. Maces, Attacking Mace, Grasp of Death.

    At orange: Clutching Feathers, Dance of Death, Triggered Salute's extension...

    At purple: Twirling Wings, Leaping Crane, Snapping Twig, Shield and Sword...

    At blue: Thrusting Wedge, Flashing Wings, Shield and Mace...

    At green: Obscure Claws, Circling Destruction...

    And those are from the first few techniques on each card, and without looking at the extensions: the forward-bow-as-bracing-angle seems pretty much ubiquituous in kenpo, even if I can;t remember how to spell, "ubi...whatever it is."

    I'd also suggest that Short 2, Long 1, Long 2, explicitly teach these bracing angles in their employments of forward bows.

    Personally, I'd leave the modifications to the student's own discoveries and to the careful teaching of the system as it pretty much more or less is. But then, I've been having a running discussion of very much this point with Clyde for four months, and he thinks I'm thick on the matter.

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