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Thread: Web of Knowledge

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    Question Web of Knowledge

    This topic was originally suggested by Kenpo Yahoo:

    Does the "Web of Knowledge" actually teach anything, or is it more of an organizational concept? How are category completion and the WOK related? Is the WOK necessary to the learning process, or does it become a self-serving tool that hinders change?

    Let's keep it civil, please.

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    Gin-Gin
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    Default Re: Web of Knowledge

    I'm not an EPAK practitioner so I had to look this up. Sounds like a way to organize techniques. Americans like structure so I'm sure it is a beneficial teaching tool. I learned without.

    Does it hinder change? I don't think a tool can hinder change. Does anyone have the authority to change it? Are senior students encouraged to explore on their own?

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    Default Re: Web of Knowledge

    I think it helps more clearly establish links between techniques, to see how things are related. It's a tool for organization, but also a tool to help analyze too.
    Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

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    Default Re: Web of Knowledge

    In addition to helping us retain and more thoroughly comprehend our self-defense techniques through categorizing the techniques into methods of attack, the Web of Knowledge helps us see how a technique for a punch could also work for say, a grab, or push.

    You will also notice that the order of the Web is such that it represents a greater likelihood of being attacked by that method. For example, grabs, pushes, and punches are very common attacks, and therefore these types of attacks are greatly emphasized in the lower ranks. Conversely, techniques designed for specific kick attacks are somewhat less common, particularly more advanced kicking techniques. That is why we have moves like Deceptive Panther (for a double roundhouse kick combo), and Rotating Destruction (front kick, followed by a spinning rear kick) at higher belt levels, not to mention the greater complexity of these movements relative to beginner-intermediate techniques.

    Hope that helps.

    Jamie Seabrook
    www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

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    Question Re: Web of Knowledge

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook
    the Web of Knowledge helps us see how a technique for a punch could also work for say, a grab, or push
    Would you please elaborate more on this, Sir?
    The truly educated never graduate.
    "To understand the heart & mind of a person, look not at what they have already achieved, but what they aspire to do." -Kahlil Gibran

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    Default Re: Web of Knowledge

    Quote Originally Posted by Gin-Gin2
    Would you please elaborate more on this, Sir?
    Sure.

    Take the very first technique for Yellow belt for instance - Delayed Sword. The technique is taught for a grab and as the opponent leans forward, we take an angle of least resistance as we pin the grab and step back (thereby controlling the opponent's height, width, and depth). We then clear the arm, front kick the groin, and handsword the neck as we employ marriage of gravity.

    This same technique, however, always works great for say, a right punch. In this case, we omit the grab, and just step back to block the punch, then continue on with the front kick and handsword. We could do the same as well for a push.

    In my school, I teach the technique first for a grab, and then show how it can also be done for a punch.


    Jamie Seabrook
    www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

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    Default Re: Web of Knowledge

    Very well put Mr. Seabrook. We teach this as a grab, and then I explain how the technique is useful for a push, and punch as well. I explain to the students that there is no difference between a righ hand lapel grab, a right handed push or a right punch. This often confuses them for a second or two until it is explained that a push is a lazy punch, and a grab is lazy push, then you see the light bulb go off in their mind and they start to grasp that the only difference between the attacksis the severity of the incoming arm.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Web of Knowledge

    Ooooohhhh.

    So you guys are saying that if I was to draw out the web of knowledge with its eight catagories and infil the techs into it - the delayed sword would appear 3 times in the web, and may be three different levels within the web depending where you think the tech should be introduced into that catagory.

    And then the same could be said for other techs too.

    My word - my drawn out version of the web could now get quite complicated

    This is a good tool for making you think about applications before trying them out - I like it - another light bulb goes on

    Jonah

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    Default Re: Web of Knowledge

    When a technique done, for say, a right punch could also be executed for a push or grab, the only thing that would likely change would be your timing of the action given the variation in speed one might expect between these types of attack.

    Good points as well Rob.

    Jamie Seabrook

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    Default Re: Web of Knowledge

    One thing to consider. When someone is punching, you are defending against there action before it can strike you. Against a push, there attack has already made contact with you.

    Ray

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    Post Re: Web of Knowledge

    Hey Everyone,

    I found an article about the web of knowledge that is written by Mr. Conatser. If you are interested you can find it at Mr. LaBounty's website at:
    http://www.thesigung.com/web.html

    Enjoy,

    Joseph

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    Default Re: Web of Knowledge

    Quote Originally Posted by Raysonawav
    One thing to consider. When someone is punching, you are defending against there action before it can strike you. Against a push, there attack has already made contact with you.

    Ray
    Not necessarily.

    Please explain your points more clearly with specific examples from techniques.

    Jamie Seabrook
    www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

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    Default Re: Web of Knowledge

    In most case I should of said. That's what I get for posting so late in the work day. LOL


    Ray

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    Default Re: Web of Knowledge

    Not to confuse the matter, but I see no reason why you cannot use Delayed Sword against the left side attack either. It would just place the defender on the outside of the arm instead of the inside. Some adjustments would need to be made regarding targets but nothing that significantly changes the technique.

    Isn't that part of the beauty of kenpo - I love the formula - add, delete, insert, rearrange, etc. but I am a numbers guy.

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    Default Re: Web of Knowledge

    one thing that most people miss with the web of knowlage is that its not to be looked at in one demension. Look as it if you were standing inside of it and which moves should travel on the circle or the line, or even on the same line.

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    Default Re: Web of Knowledge

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook View Post
    In addition to helping us retain and more thoroughly comprehend our self-defense techniques through categorizing the techniques into methods of attack, the Web of Knowledge helps us see how a technique for a punch could also work for say, a grab, or push.

    You will also notice that the order of the Web is such that it represents a greater likelihood of being attacked by that method. For example, grabs, pushes, and punches are very common attacks, and therefore these types of attacks are greatly emphasized in the lower ranks. Conversely, techniques designed for specific kick attacks are somewhat less common, particularly more advanced kicking techniques. That is why we have moves like Deceptive Panther (for a double roundhouse kick combo), and Rotating Destruction (front kick, followed by a spinning rear kick) at higher belt levels, not to mention the greater complexity of these movements relative to beginner-intermediate techniques.

    Hope that helps.

    Jamie Seabrook
    www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com
    One of the Best explanations of the Web of Knowledge I've ever seen outside of Mr. Parker's own words.
    Thanks! ......thought it was worth bringing back up for all to look at again and maybe discuss!

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    Default Re: Web of Knowledge

    Quote Originally Posted by akskarate1 View Post
    one thing that most people miss with the web of knowlage is that its not to be looked at in one demension. Look as it if you were standing inside of it and which moves should travel on the circle or the line, or even on the same line.
    Wrong diagram/model... your thinking of the "universal pattern" the comment is correct just in the wrong place.
    "The problem is not whether or not you like bad kenpo, the problem is recognizing whether or not your kenpo is bad!"
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    Default Re: Web of Knowledge

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook View Post
    Not necessarily.

    Please explain your points more clearly with specific examples from techniques.

    Jamie Seabrook
    www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com
    I would be interested to hear/read how it is that the "web" actually teaches any of this? it is merely an organization of the tech's, so what additional tool/term or diagram are you using in conjunction with the web for the purpose of learning how "delayed sword" can be used for a punch as well as the traditional push? They are in their own category and we the people like to manipulate those categories for sure, however that does not mean that the web of Knowledge had anything to do with this. So how does it tie together, in your mind/opinion?

    Todd Durgan
    "The problem is not whether or not you like bad kenpo, the problem is recognizing whether or not your kenpo is bad!"
    "Being a master by your own proclamation doesn't make you a master, it only makes you an arrogant"

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    Default Re: Web of Knowledge

    Quote Originally Posted by sumdumguy View Post
    I would be interested to hear/read how it is that the "web" actually teaches any of this? it is merely an organization of the tech's, so what additional tool/term or diagram are you using in conjunction with the web for the purpose of learning how "delayed sword" can be used for a punch as well as the traditional push? They are in their own category and we the people like to manipulate those categories for sure, however that does not mean that the web of Knowledge had anything to do with this. So how does it tie together, in your mind/opinion?

    Todd Durgan
    In the heat of battle, a person doesn't have time to differentiate a push from a punch; so, the lines of the web become quite blurred. I would not claim the web teaches a student anything. What does the Dewey Decimal system teach you about any given book, other than where to find it?
    Also Mastering Tsing Tao.

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