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Thread: Contouring

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    Default Contouring

    When doing many techniques is it better to stay on the persons body or not? I.e. contouring. This concept involves using the out line of your opponent's body as a "homing device" or guide to accomplish certain feats. Contouring is divided into two basic categories -- methods that employ 1) body contact or 2) non-body contact. When a natural weapon fits the contour of the target it is known as fitting. There are many other sub categories to contouring of which is fitting. What are the others?
    "To hear is to doubt. To see is to be deceived. But to feel is to believe." -- SGM Ed Parker

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    Default Re: Contouring

    "Tracking" is one of that comes to mind. Definately useful if you can't see your opponent or your view is somewhat obscured.

    In regards to efficiency, it's probably a good idea to stick as close to your opponent as possible. You can't move "through" a body, but by contouring you can go from target to target more quickly than by pulling away after a strike prior to striking again. IMHO
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Contouring

    Gotta agree with CC. Countour as much as possible.

    1) Promotes Accuracy
    2) Economy of Motion
    3) Allows you to "feel" the opponent's movements and better check him off and/or flow from move to move
    4) Allows to switch from striking to manipulating and/or blend the two together

    Countouring, Tracking, Fitting, Threading, Hugging, Pressing, Pinning, Riding, Rolling, Sliding......starting to sound like vertical grappling to me.
    James Hawkins III, SI
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    Default Re: Contouring

    Threading

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    Default Re: Contouring

    Mr. Parker addressed contouring quite effectively in two categories. Contact and non-contact contouring. Keep in mind that when you are in contact with another person, without specific mechnisms and principles at your disposal, as well as a stable base platform, they have as much opportunity to affect you as you they. The human body is easily misaligned if one is knowledgeable. Of course you can do the same without contact as Ed Parker shared with me. I think several that post here have been in seminars where I have misaligned them without contact before engagement.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

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    Default Re: Contouring

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    Mr. Parker addressed contouring quite effectively in two categories. Contact and non-contact contouring. Keep in mind that when you are in contact with another person, without specific mechnisms and principles at your disposal, as well as a stable base platform, they have as much opportunity to affect you as you they. The human body is easily misaligned if one is knowledgeable. Of course you can do the same without contact as Ed Parker shared with me. I think several that post here have been in seminars where I have misaligned them without contact before engagement.
    This is one of those topics from your seminar material that can really be of use to ANY style. Shaolin kempo tends to use 'grab and manipulate' in its techniques more than American Kenpo does (as far as I can tell anyway) and so we found this very relevant to us. I am far from having the understanding of alignment and PNF assessment of even your more junior students, but at least now we know how very important it is to both preserve your structure and destroy the attacker's. So when I am teaching a technique where the student is either grabbed or does the grabbing, it always starts and ends with POSTURE.

    These lessons also allow us to transition into the groundfighting that we teach as well...

    As far as the non-contact mis-alignment, we are aware of the visual cortex technique, but don't have the knowledge to really exploit it (we haven't really done any more than just try to recognize when it is happening in our existing techniques).

    Missing stair effect? is that another? "spatial distortion"? can that be induced?

    But "non-contact mis-alignment" is not the same as "non-contact contouring" is it?

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    Default Re: Contouring

    Although contouring is a broad concept, I am content right now with countouring myself, and simply identifying my opponent's strongest and weakest base of support through out the encounter.
    Sean

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    Default Re: Contouring

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidCC View Post
    This is one of those topics from your seminar material that can really be of use to ANY style. Shaolin kempo tends to use 'grab and manipulate' in its techniques more than American Kenpo does (as far as I can tell anyway) and so we found this very relevant to us. I am far from having the understanding of alignment and PNF assessment of even your more junior students, but at least now we know how very important it is to both preserve your structure and destroy the attacker's. So when I am teaching a technique where the student is either grabbed or does the grabbing, it always starts and ends with POSTURE.

    These lessons also allow us to transition into the groundfighting that we teach as well...

    As far as the non-contact mis-alignment, we are aware of the visual cortex technique, but don't have the knowledge to really exploit it (we haven't really done any more than just try to recognize when it is happening in our existing techniques).

    Missing stair effect? is that another? "spatial distortion"? can that be induced?

    But "non-contact mis-alignment" is not the same as "non-contact contouring" is it?
    I am, at heart, an evil SOB. When Doc first showed me the non-contact misalignments, I took to experimenting on the unsuspecting public as often as possible...reaching to open a door for someone, they mis-step; handing the change to a cashier in a way that triggers this effect, you can watch them have to re-figure out where they left the keyboard and cash drawer they've been working on for 6 hours. It's a kick, and the effects are easily induced, and notable.

    D.
    Clear mind, clear movement. Mastery of the Arts is mastery over the Self. That in this moment, this motion, the thoughts, memories, impulses and passions that cloud the mind must yield to the clarity of purpose, and purity of motion.

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    Default Re: Contouring

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    I am, at heart, an evil SOB. When Doc first showed me the non-contact misalignments, I took to experimenting on the unsuspecting public as often as possible...reaching to open a door for someone, they mis-step; handing the change to a cashier in a way that triggers this effect, you can watch them have to re-figure out where they left the keyboard and cash drawer they've been working on for 6 hours. It's a kick, and the effects are easily induced, and notable.

    D.
    Are you tapping into peoples natural reactions to certain movements?
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Contouring

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    I think several that post here have been in seminars where I have misaligned them without contact before engagement.
    yes I remember it well - eye opening doesn't come close to describing the experience

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    I am, at heart, an evil SOB. When Doc first showed me the non-contact misalignments, I took to experimenting on the unsuspecting public as often as possible...reaching to open a door for someone, they mis-step; handing the change to a cashier in a way that triggers this effect, you can watch them have to re-figure out where they left the keyboard and cash drawer they've been working on for 6 hours. It's a kick, and the effects are easily induced, and notable.

    D.
    that's mean! but funny - I gotta learn how to do that now

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    Default Re: Contouring

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    Are you tapping into peoples natural reactions to certain movements?
    Yes. Making sure to cross the width of their visual field or provide conflicting signals within it, nearer to their body as opposed to further, and it gives their brain pause for a moment while it tries to compartmentalize the movement. That pause-&-figger moment robs attentional resources from simple management functions (such as balance & coordination), and momentarily destabilizes the subject.

    Have you ever tried punching in your ATM number in line at the grocery store while asking and answering questions with the people around you? Typically, it's too many non-harmonious notes in the air for attention to process, and we trim a few out by saying, "hang on a sec" while we finish our PIN. It's kinda like that. And while the brain is spacing & trying to regroup is when you put the move on.

    The visual cortex disruptions are an SNL "subliminal man" way of doing this to an opponent. One of Docs demos about switching grips on a double wrist grab messes with my head every time, even after seeing it dozens of times...you grab at things that aren't there, because your brain -- for just a second -- insists something ought to still be there to grab (like that feel of a missed step). Very sleight-of-hand feel to it, but with some fun applications to kenpo. Can even be applied sparring...watch the guy try and regain his mental balance while you pop him.

    D.
    Clear mind, clear movement. Mastery of the Arts is mastery over the Self. That in this moment, this motion, the thoughts, memories, impulses and passions that cloud the mind must yield to the clarity of purpose, and purity of motion.

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    Default Re: Contouring

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    Yes. Making sure to cross the width of their visual field or provide conflicting signals within it, nearer to their body as opposed to further, and it gives their brain pause for a moment while it tries to compartmentalize the movement. That pause-&-figger moment robs attentional resources from simple management functions (such as balance & coordination), and momentarily destabilizes the subject.

    Have you ever tried punching in your ATM number in line at the grocery store while asking and answering questions with the people around you? Typically, it's too many non-harmonious notes in the air for attention to process, and we trim a few out by saying, "hang on a sec" while we finish our PIN. It's kinda like that. And while the brain is spacing & trying to regroup is when you put the move on.

    The visual cortex disruptions are an SNL "subliminal man" way of doing this to an opponent. One of Docs demos about switching grips on a double wrist grab messes with my head every time, even after seeing it dozens of times...you grab at things that aren't there, because your brain -- for just a second -- insists something ought to still be there to grab (like that feel of a missed step). Very sleight-of-hand feel to it, but with some fun applications to kenpo. Can even be applied sparring...watch the guy try and regain his mental balance while you pop him.

    D.
    Now you've seriously piqued my interest. I've been exposed to something similar in working with "trapping" techniques, but this sounds a bit different. I'd like to know more. Is there more information you can provide on this? Perhaps a clip or two demonstrating some applications? (Would make an excellent thread )
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Contouring

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    Now you've seriously piqued my interest. I've been exposed to something similar in working with "trapping" techniques, but this sounds a bit different. I'd like to know more. Is there more information you can provide on this? Perhaps a clip or two demonstrating some applications? (Would make an excellent thread )
    I've been working on getting the equipment necessary to post clips of things we dialogue about, particularly since one can show something in 1-2 minutes that would take hours to describe in writing, and still not be clear.

    As soon as I get a bloody digital videocam...
    Clear mind, clear movement. Mastery of the Arts is mastery over the Self. That in this moment, this motion, the thoughts, memories, impulses and passions that cloud the mind must yield to the clarity of purpose, and purity of motion.

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    Default Re: Contouring

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    I've been working on getting the equipment necessary to post clips of things we dialogue about, particularly since one can show something in 1-2 minutes that would take hours to describe in writing, and still not be clear.

    As soon as I get a bloody digital videocam...
    http://cgi.ebay.com/PANASONIC-PV-GS3...QQcmdZViewItem

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    Default Re: Contouring

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    I've been working on getting the equipment necessary to post clips of things we dialogue about, particularly since one can show something in 1-2 minutes that would take hours to describe in writing, and still not be clear.

    As soon as I get a bloody digital videocam...
    Nope!
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

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    Default Re: Contouring

    I'd like to see some of the material that Dr. Dave in da house wants to share. I say, more power to him.

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    Default Re: Contouring

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Lear View Post
    I'd like to see some of the material that Dr. Dave in da house wants to share. I say, more power to him.
    Ditto!
    Especially since I'm seriously curious to see more on the subject non-contact misalignments.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Contouring

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    I am, at heart, an evil SOB. When Doc first showed me the non-contact misalignments, I took to experimenting on the unsuspecting public as often as possible...reaching to open a door for someone, they mis-step; handing the change to a cashier in a way that triggers this effect, you can watch them have to re-figure out where they left the keyboard and cash drawer they've been working on for 6 hours. It's a kick, and the effects are easily induced, and notable.

    D.
    So, by your definition of contouring, it advances into the concept of hypnotic anchors that people have unconsciously, and then triggering those unconscious anchors of theirs consciously so that they go into deep trance?
    How specifically?
    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

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    Default Using natural occuring anchors works every time!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    Yes. Making sure to cross the width of their visual field or provide conflicting signals within it, nearer to their body as opposed to further, and it gives their brain pause for a moment while it tries to compartmentalize the movement. That pause-&-figger moment robs attentional resources from simple management functions (such as balance & coordination), and momentarily destabilizes the subject.

    Have you ever tried punching in your ATM number in line at the grocery store while asking and answering questions with the people around you? Typically, it's too many non-harmonious notes in the air for attention to process, and we trim a few out by saying, "hang on a sec" while we finish our PIN. It's kinda like that. And while the brain is spacing & trying to regroup is when you put the move on.

    The visual cortex disruptions are an SNL "subliminal man" way of doing this to an opponent. One of Docs demos about switching grips on a double wrist grab messes with my head every time, even after seeing it dozens of times...you grab at things that aren't there, because your brain -- for just a second -- insists something ought to still be there to grab (like that feel of a missed step). Very sleight-of-hand feel to it, but with some fun applications to kenpo. Can even be applied sparring...watch the guy try and regain his mental balance while you pop him.

    D.
    Yep.
    Simple trance inductions using naturally occuring anchors.
    Many books in the NLP field do cover this and methods of doing this.
    "Frogs into Princes", "Transformations", etc.

    In fact I've taught that specific concept for self-defense and sparring for 30 years.
    Of course it doesn't work, right?

    I'm glad this was brought up and that others have also added it to Kenpo Karate.
    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

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