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Thread: Basics - Kicks

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    Default Basics - Kicks

    These are the kicks listed as 'Basics' in the studio where I study. Submitted for discussion.

    Front Snap
    Side Snap
    Back Snap
    Roundhouse
    Front Knee
    Front Stomp
    Back Stomp
    Side Stomp
    Shuffle (Drag) Kick
    Front Thrust
    Side Thrust
    Back Thrust
    Front Scoop
    Back Scoop
    Spinning Back
    Side Chicken
    Front Chicken
    Front Cross Side Stomp
    Rear Cross Side Stomp
    Front Roundhouse Sweep
    Reverse Roundhouse Sweep
    Spinning Crescent

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    Default Re: Basics - Kicks

    When discussing kicks there is a saying that must not be forgoten.

    You can snap a thrust kick, but you can not thrust a snap kick.

    Think about it.
    Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

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    Default Re: Basics - Kicks

    Quote Originally Posted by dubljay
    When discussing kicks there is a saying that must not be forgoten.

    You can snap a thrust kick, but you can not thrust a snap kick.

    Think about it.
    OK LOL I will think about this... maybe I need to hear your definition of thrust and snap.

    How about we add knife edge kick to the list - we use those in lots of techniques...

    Also, Michael can you please describe a side chicken kick? I've seen/done front and back chicken kicks, but I'm not sure of how you execute a side chicken kick.

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    Default Re: Basics - Kicks

    A side chicken is also referred to as a butterfly kick as well. The best example I can think of is in Long 4, Prance of the Tiger. From the cat stance you execute a thrusting sweep kick, then with the opposite foot you execute a snapping side kick. The timing is the same as a chicken kick, just done with a side kick instead.

    The difference between a thrust kick and a snap kick lies entirely upon the body mechanics used in the kick. A snap kick utilizes only the muscles of the leg for the strike, where as a thrust kick utilizes the hips as well. The simplest example would be the difference between a snapping ball kick (aka front snap kick) and a thrusting ball kick (aka front thrust kick). The weapon used to deliver the strikes is the same, the ball of the foot. The kicks look really similar with one difference that can go unnoticed. A snapping ball kick is characteristically faster than a thrust kick, though not as powerful. When executed from your rear leg the knee comes up, you extend you foot to the target, retract your foot and then replant. A thrust kick follows the same path, however there is an added "push" from the hips extending the range just a bit and adding more power. I find this difficult to explain, one way of relating them would be comparing a jab to a reverse punch, though that is a sloppy comparison.

    So the snapping action of striking your target and immediately retracting your foot can be done on both a snap kick and a thrust kick. However due to limitations of body mechanics you cannot (usually cannot) deliver a thrust kick unless you set up the body mechanics (usually a shift or pivot in the hips).
    Last edited by dubljay; 02-16-2005 at 01:28 PM.
    Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

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    Default Re: Basics - Kicks

    Quote Originally Posted by dubljay
    A side chicken is also referred to as a butterfly kick as well. The best example I can think of is in Long 4, Prance of the Tiger. From the cat stance you execute a sweeping thrust kick, then with the opposite foot you execute a snapping side kick. The timing is the same as a chicken kick, just done with a side kick instead.
    I see it in Long Four thanks!

    The difference between a thrust kick and a snap kick lies entirely upon the body mechanics used in the kick. A snap kick utilizes only the muscles of the leg for the strike, where as a thrust kick utilizes the hips as well. The simplest example would be the difference between a snapping ball kick (aka front snap kick) and a thrusting ball kick (aka front thrust kick). The weapon used to deliver the strikes is the same, the ball of the foot. The kicks look really similar with one difference that can go unnoticed. A snapping ball kick is characteristically faster than a thrust kick, though not as powerful. When executed from your rear leg the knee comes up, you extend you foot to the target, retract your foot and then replant. A thrust kick follows the same path, however there is an added "push" from the hips extending the range just a bit and adding more power. I find this difficult to explain, one way of relating them would be comparing a jab to a reverse punch, though that is a sloppy comparison.

    So the snapping action of striking your target and immediately retracting your foot can be done on both a snap kick and a thrust kick. However due to limitations of body mechanics you cannot (usually cannot) deliver a thrust kick unless you set up the body mechanics (usually a shift or pivot in the hips).
    OK I think I can relate to this in terms of a thrusting side kick where I actually push through with my hip but also pivot my supporting foot a bit to close critical distance and push through my target. In a thrusting front snap kick, other than possibly dropping your weight, does your supporting leg move at all during this kick? Also how does it, or does it affect your upper body?

    MJ

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    Default Re: Basics - Kicks

    Quote Originally Posted by mjhiya
    I see it in Long Four thanks!

    OK I think I can relate to this in terms of a thrusting side kick where I actually push through with my hip but also pivot my supporting foot a bit to close critical distance and push through my target. In a thrusting front snap kick, other than possibly dropping your weight, does your supporting leg move at all during this kick? Also how does it, or does it affect your upper body?

    MJ
    I am not sure how much the difference would effect the upper body. Perhaps because a thrust kick has more momentum than a snap kick, the upper body extends out in the opposite direction a bit more to act as a counter ballance. Good question I am going to play around with the differences to see if I can see anything.

    -Josh-
    Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

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    Default Re: Basics - Kicks

    Quote Originally Posted by dubljay
    I am not sure how much the difference would effect the upper body. Perhaps because a thrust kick has more momentum than a snap kick, the upper body extends out in the opposite direction a bit more to act as a counter ballance. Good question I am going to play around with the differences to see if I can see anything.

    -Josh-
    Thanks Josh! I'll be out of town for a few days but I'll check back next week! One more thought on this...your weapon is the same for both kicks, would/could you use the thrust kick on the same targets, or would it be more for pushing through say on a body shot?

    MJ

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    Default Re: Basics - Kicks

    Quote Originally Posted by mjhiya
    Thanks Josh! I'll be out of town for a few days but I'll check back next week! One more thought on this...your weapon is the same for both kicks, would/could you use the thrust kick on the same targets, or would it be more for pushing through say on a body shot?

    MJ
    I think it would be equally effective on both targets. However some targets do not require the power of a thrust kick to get the desired reaction. For example, a ball kick the groin. In this situation the target is the front of the groin so the kick will bend the opponent forward. (think of Thrusting Salute and Buckling Branch from the Orange list note the differences in the front kicks and the opponents reaction). A snap kick would be just as effective at getting your opponent to bend forward as a thrust kick, so a thrust kick would be waisted energy and motion.

    Also if you look at a knife edge side kick. I would NEVER use the knife edge of my foot in a side thrust kick... the likely result would be broken foot or ankle depending on the target.
    Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

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    Default Re: Basics - Kicks

    Quote Originally Posted by dubljay
    I think it would be equally effective on both targets. However some targets do not require the power of a thrust kick to get the desired reaction. For example, a ball kick the groin. In this situation the target is the front of the groin so the kick will bend the opponent forward. (think of Thrusting Salute and Buckling Branch from the Orange list note the differences in the front kicks and the opponents reaction). A snap kick would be just as effective at getting your opponent to bend forward as a thrust kick, so a thrust kick would be waisted energy and motion.

    Also if you look at a knife edge side kick. I would NEVER use the knife edge of my foot in a side thrust kick... the likely result would be broken foot or ankle depending on the target.
    Good thoughts on the thrust kick and I agree I would push through the heel on the side thrusting kick over a knife edge. One thought, a little diversion on the snap kick to the groin...we've played with the idea that the vitals (sensitive parts of the groin) are actually located more underneath than in front, so a more effective groin shot may be an instep kick to the groin - also this kick gives you a path rather than a line to follow reducing the margin for error on that target.

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    Default Re: Basics - Kicks

    Quote Originally Posted by mjhiya
    One thought, a little diversion on the snap kick to the groin...we've played with the idea that the vitals (sensitive parts of the groin) are actually located more underneath than in front, so a more effective groin shot may be an instep kick to the groin - also this kick gives you a path rather than a line to follow reducing the margin for error on that target.
    Very true, however it will yield a completely different *initial* reaction.
    Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

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    Default Re: Basics - Kicks

    Quote Originally Posted by dubljay
    Very true, however it will yield a completely different *initial* reaction.
    I'm sure you are right, but no one at my studio will actually allow me to find the answer to that. That being - what is the initial reaction to an instep kick to the groin?

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    Default Re: Basics - Kicks

    The initial reaction to an instep strike to the groin would be your opponent lifting up (up on to his toes for exaggeration). This is due to the upward motion of the strike. This is used in Buckling Branch because your next move is to collapse his knee. (I used Initial because it is more or less involuntary. instinctualy any guy would drop to the ground and curl up into the fetal position and wish they had been shot in the head) You lift him up to slam him back down to the ground. Where in Thrusting Salute you strike the front of the groin to bring his face into your thrusting heal palm to his chin (borrowed force).
    Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

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    Default Re: Basics - Kicks

    Quote Originally Posted by dubljay
    The initial reaction to an instep strike to the groin would be your opponent lifting up (up on to his toes for exaggeration). This is due to the upward motion of the strike. This is used in Buckling Branch because your next move is to collapse his knee. (I used Initial because it is more or less involuntary. instinctualy any guy would drop to the ground and curl up into the fetal position and wish they had been shot in the head) You lift him up to slam him back down to the ground. Where in Thrusting Salute you strike the front of the groin to bring his face into your thrusting heal palm to his chin (borrowed force).
    Good examples, and at the very least they would then instinctually grab their groin. I like your initial = involuntary analogy it makes more sense that way, thanks.

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    Default Re: Basics - Kicks

    I did not really understand the concept all that well myself until my instructor enlightened me. In the time it takes for you to re-chamber your in-step front kick to deliver the knife edge side kick in Buckling Branch, the opponent (myself when I was being "enlightened") is still reacting from the strike to the groin, and the first reaction to being hit anywhere is to move away from it (generally speaking in the same direction as the strike travels). Believe me despite having protection I was up on my toes when I recieved the kick to the back of my knee.
    Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

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    Default Re: Basics - Kicks

    Quote Originally Posted by dubljay
    I did not really understand the concept all that well myself until my instructor enlightened me. In the time it takes for you to re-chamber your in-step front kick to deliver the knife edge side kick in Buckling Branch, the opponent (myself when I was being "enlightened") is still reacting from the strike to the groin, and the first reaction to being hit anywhere is to move away from it (generally speaking in the same direction as the strike travels). Believe me despite having protection I was up on my toes when I recieved the kick to the back of my knee.
    Feeling is believing! You seem like a good student too!

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    Default Re: Basics - Kicks

    Quote Originally Posted by mjhiya
    Feeling is believing! You seem like a good student too!
    Feeling is believing... no question in my mind. As for a good student... eh I could do more.
    Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

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    Default Re: Basics - Kicks

    Quote Originally Posted by dubljay
    I did not really understand the concept all that well myself until my instructor enlightened me. In the time it takes for you to re-chamber your in-step front kick to deliver the knife edge side kick in Buckling Branch, the opponent (myself when I was being "enlightened") is still reacting from the strike to the groin, and the first reaction to being hit anywhere is to move away from it (generally speaking in the same direction as the strike travels). Believe me despite having protection I was up on my toes when I recieved the kick to the back of my knee.
    I have so been in your shoes...well, not literally, but...well...you know what I mean.
    See, all I've gotta do is get loose like I'm fluid, dude, Rollin' up my sleeves on my gi and get into it. You and who, him and them? Line up in a single file. One on one, all for one...end up in a bigger pile. The ambiance of Martial Arts is constant, Nunchucks chuckin' when I step in the mosh pit. Wing Chun dummy getting splintered apart, Escrima sticks whippin' and I'm chipping the bark. What are you? A pink belt? I'll give you a head start. Kumite killin', with the spirit of Ed Parker.

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    Default Re: Basics - Kicks

    Many times, while working with a partner, you can get a reasonable faxsimilie of a realisitic groin response by hitting them high up on the inner thigh, just below the testicles. This does not have the same pain response but creates a similiar psychological response. Most males, especially males in the 11 to 29 age bracket react automatically to any strike to the region regardless of whether it strikes the groin or not. There are, of course, exceptions. The ones most notably, are your masochists, and those that are proud of wearing their cups; however, if you hit them in the thigh, and they aren't expecting it, their body will react involuntarily. Try it, you may be surprised.
    Just because you do something one way, does not mean that everyone else does it that way, or that it is even the correct way.

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    Default Re: Basics - Kicks

    And those that are sans testicles..

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    Default Re: Basics - Kicks

    definately don't wanna be sans those.
    See, all I've gotta do is get loose like I'm fluid, dude, Rollin' up my sleeves on my gi and get into it. You and who, him and them? Line up in a single file. One on one, all for one...end up in a bigger pile. The ambiance of Martial Arts is constant, Nunchucks chuckin' when I step in the mosh pit. Wing Chun dummy getting splintered apart, Escrima sticks whippin' and I'm chipping the bark. What are you? A pink belt? I'll give you a head start. Kumite killin', with the spirit of Ed Parker.

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