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Thread: Basics - Foot Maneuvers

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Basics - Foot Maneuvers

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronuss
    the only flipping I can do is with a particular finger and the only splitting that will happen is the tearing of my pants if I try...
    The way I understood splitting is not to stretch your leg until they're pointing 180 degrees away from each other.

    Splitting is moving from a neutral stance to a neutral bow stance without moving your body. So you take a half step forward with your right foot, and a half step backward with your left, ending up in a right neutral bow with your body in the same position as it was before. This manouvre is executed as a hop.

    But I may be wrong about this of course.....

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    Default Re: Basics - Foot Maneuvers

    Utilizing the definitions as posted, how do you explain or reconcile technique names like, "Leap of Death," "Leaping Crane," etc.

    One lands on both feet, the other moves from one foot to the other.
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    Default Re: Basics - Foot Maneuvers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc
    Utilizing the definitions as posted, how do you explain or reconcile technique names like, "Leap of Death," "Leaping Crane," etc.

    One lands on both feet, the other moves from one foot to the other.
    Technique Names are not synonymous with Basic Foot Maneuver names.

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    Default Re: Basics - Foot Maneuvers

    Quote Originally Posted by michaeledward
    Technique Names are not synonymous with Basic Foot Maneuver names.
    Really? So, technique names are contridictory metaphors?
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    Default Re: Basics - Foot Maneuvers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc
    Really? So, technique names are contridictory metaphors?
    No. Technique names are descriptive of the combination of basics.

    The state of being descriptive does not equate to being definitive. Should it? Should we be comparing Technique Names to Basic Names?

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    Default Re: Basics - Foot Maneuvers

    Quote Originally Posted by michaeledward
    No. Technique names are descriptive of the combination of basics.

    The state of being descriptive does not equate to being definitive. Should it? Should we be comparing Technique Names to Basic Names?
    Is Attacking Mace for a kick? Is Sword and Hammer for a tackle? "It would seem to be reasonable that if you were going to use descriptive metaphors as a guide to allow students to remember and decipher technique execution, it would seem to be self defeating and confusing to use contradictory metaphors to the taught terminology of basics and synonyms." Wouldn't it?
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    Default Re: Basics - Foot Maneuvers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc
    Is Attacking Mace for a kick? Is Sword and Hammer for a tackle? "It would seem to be reasonable that if you were going to use descriptive metaphors as a guide to allow students to remember and decipher technique execution, it would seem to be self defeating and confusing to use contradictory metaphors to the taught terminology of basics and synonyms." Wouldn't it?
    How then do you propose we describe techniques?

    The definition of basics I work from is: "Any Single Move". (Although that definition does not meet the criteria for the last entry, 'twist through', which is actually two moves). Can we have some martial art component smaller than "Any Single Move" to which me must a name and definition?

    So, if we assume that our smallest particle, to which me must apply a name and definition is a basic, and we understand that techniques are combinations of basics, what would be a more clear way of defining those combinations, in space and time?

    The metaphore used in Infinite Insights (and elsewhere), is that of the alphabet, building to words, sentences and paragraphs. Although there were hints at a musical metaphore, I have not seen that it was developed. As a musician, I can understand why the musical paradigm might be a better fit to describe how the body moves in place and time, but, I don't think it would be conducive to learning how to move, but only to catalog moves in a standard format.

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    Default Re: Basics - Foot Maneuvers

    Quote Originally Posted by michaeledward
    How then do you propose we describe techniques?

    The definition of basics I work from is: "Any Single Move". (Although that definition does not meet the criteria for the last entry, 'twist through', which is actually two moves). Can we have some martial art component smaller than "Any Single Move" to which me must a name and definition?

    So, if we assume that our smallest particle, to which me must apply a name and definition is a basic, and we understand that techniques are combinations of basics, what would be a more clear way of defining those combinations, in space and time?

    The metaphore used in Infinite Insights (and elsewhere), is that of the alphabet, building to words, sentences and paragraphs. Although there were hints at a musical metaphore, I have not seen that it was developed. As a musician, I can understand why the musical paradigm might be a better fit to describe how the body moves in place and time, but, I don't think it would be conducive to learning how to move, but only to catalog moves in a standard format.
    I'm sorry you seem to be a bit confused. There is no disagreement in the use of the descriptors, only in the contradiction in terms. Once again how do you resolve these discrepencies between the terms in basics and the mentioned techniques. That was the question yet to be answered sir.
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    Default Re: Basics - Foot Maneuvers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc
    I'm sorry you seem to be a bit confused. There is no disagreement in the use of the descriptors, only in the contradiction in terms. Once again how do you resolve these discrepencies between the terms in basics and the mentioned techniques. That was the question yet to be answered sir.
    I do not attempt to answer it.

    As a student with comparatively little experience, I think I am not yet in a position to attempt to redefine that art.

    I am in the woodshed, practicing my scales.

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    Default Re: Basics - Foot Maneuvers

    Quote Originally Posted by michaeledward
    Although there were hints at a musical metaphore, I have not seen that it was developed. As a musician, I can understand why the musical paradigm might be a better fit to describe how the body moves in place and time, but, I don't think it would be conducive to learning how to move, but only to catalog moves in a standard format.
    I use a musical metaphore when talking about katas. I think of it as 'phrasing'. Anyone can hit the notes dead on. That's boring. Phrase the steps of a kata, the same way you phrase a song. It can be individual, yet still correct and the different timing of the moves makes it more interesting and varied. It also allows people to put a certain signature on it.

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    Default Re: Basics - Foot Maneuvers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc
    I'm sorry you seem to be a bit confused. There is no disagreement in the use of the descriptors, only in the contradiction in terms. Once again how do you resolve these discrepencies between the terms in basics and the mentioned techniques. That was the question yet to be answered sir.
    With out getting into long posts discussing the naure of anything and everything in the universe except the correlations to Kenpo, I will try to explain this in a manner of which may semi-correspondent with the line of Doc's thinking.

    In the most simplistic terms of language a hop is minor, a jump larger, and a leap well beyond that. In both techniques both feet are off the ground at the same point in time irregardless of how briefly that is. Hop of the Crane or Jump of the Crane do not convey the same iniment danger as the wording of Leap of the Crane, so in the end I believe so creative liscense was needed to make the techniques sounds as good as they do.
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    Default Re: Basics - Foot Maneuvers

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad
    With out getting into long posts discussing the naure of anything and everything in the universe except the correlations to Kenpo, I will try to explain this in a manner of which may semi-correspondent with the line of Doc's thinking.

    In the most simplistic terms of language a hop is minor, a jump larger, and a leap well beyond that. In both techniques both feet are off the ground at the same point in time irregardless of how briefly that is. Hop of the Crane or Jump of the Crane do not convey the same iniment danger as the wording of Leap of the Crane, so in the end I believe so creative liscense was needed to make the techniques sounds as good as they do.
    Thank you sir for a cogent and well thought out answer. Unfortunately, as well as you stated it, it is incorrect. Or as we say, "good effort."

    The first thing we must examine are the definitions as stated at the beginning of the thread.
    Jump: This is when you push off with both feet and land on both feet.
    Leap: This is when you push off with one foot and land on the other. (i.e. the right foot pushes off and you land on your left foot)
    Hop: This is when you push off with one foot and land on that same foot. (i.e. push off with the right foot and land with the left foot)
    They are ALL incorrect.

    The latest published definition of a "Jump," "Leap," and a "hop" states;

    JUMP - "A method of maneuvering which involves moving forward, backward, or sideways by vigorously springing or LEAPING to avoid, or execute an attack."

    LEAP - "A type of springing JUMP used to evade or attack an opponent."

    HOP - "A foot maneuver involving moving forward, backward, or to the side, while springing on ONE FOOT.

    - Encylopedia of Kenpo -1992


    or

    JUMP - "Jumps are methods of having your FEET OR FOOT leave the ground, getting to or away from an opponent."

    LEAPS - "Leaps are EXPLOSIVE JUMPS used to evade or attack an opponent."

    HOP - "Hops are one legged JUMPS that require a minimum of height to execute."

    - Infinite Insights Vol 2 - 1983


    Now having this information, how would those following this thread re-interpret the question relative to "Leaping Crane," and "Leap of Death?"

    Hint: You may find there is no contradiction after all, predicated on your understanding of the definitions(s) and how you were taught the
    technique(s).

    The embellished definitions genrate confusion, regardless of their origin. One of the many reasons it is difficult to get people on the same page on any subject that is specific in nature in the commercial system. It has very few specifics to begin with, however its definitions should at least be known and adhered to for the purposes of teaching.

    Comments please.
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    Default Re: Basics - Foot Maneuvers

    Jump: This is when you push off with both feet and land on both feet.
    Leap: This is when you push off with one foot and land on the other. (i.e. the right foot pushes off and you land on your left foot)
    Hop: This is when you push off with one foot and land on that same foot. (i.e. push off with the right foot and land with the left foot)
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc
    The first thing we must examine are the definitions as stated at the beginning of the thread.
    They are ALL incorrect.


    It was always my understanding that these basics were intended to be executed from a neutral-bow, or some variation of a 'side-on' fighting stance. So for a Jump I don't see how it is possible to 'push off' with both feet when in a neutral-bow (feet apart, going sideways) - it seems physically rather difficult if not impossible to do this? So I think I agree with Doc on this one - but don't understand why the definitions of Leap and Hop are 'incorrect' here.

    However if your feet were closer together and you were travelling with forward hip-alignment - this is a rather different mechanism as I see it, where both legs could be used to 'push off'. I feel the differences between interpretations of these foot manouevres all occur because they are coming from different considerations of the postures prior to execution.

    I had always assumed that jumping/leaping was a variation on a push-drag. At a very simplistic level (as I see it), all of these foot manouevres involve lifting the front foot from the floor, and then pushing off with the back foot/leg. Your lead leg plants first, then the back leg. The difference between them is the timing I think?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc
    Now having this information, how would those following this thread re-interpret the question relative to "Leaping Crane," and "Leap of Death?"

    Hint: You may find there is no contradiction after all, predicated on your understanding of the definitions(s) and how you were taught the technique(s).

    The embellished Comments please.
    It will be interesting to see what variatons people come up with here. As I see it there are two basic variations of leaping-crane. One where you Leap forwards and to your left whilst performing a raking-single knuckle to the ribs, either whilst airborne or whilst standing on one leg.

    The second variation requires that you establish a forward-bow and execute the rake/reverse punch to the ribs from a stable stance (i.e. both feet on the floor). Only after the attacker has reacted suitably to your punch, do you 'leap off' into the one-legged stance (the crane?) in order to repoisition yourself, and then execute the side-kick to the back of attacker's lead leg.

    I don't see any contradiction here (for Leaping Crane) but then I don't think I understand the terminology in the first place..

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    Default Re: Basics - Foot Maneuvers

    You can call it what you want. I call it "Stepping off the Line". It appears that both #1 and#2 are the same, but the names are different. There is more than one river that that leads to the ocean.
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    Default Re: Basics - Foot Maneuvers

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Lear View Post
    Foot Maneuverrs

    9. Pull-drag forward
    10. Pull-drag reverse
    So, here I am quoting Mr. Lear again.

    Anyone want to take a stab at explaining how they do a "pull drag forward"?

    I had a demonstration and instruction recently that puzzles me, and does not square with what I understand.

    Insights are appreciated.

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    Default Re: Basics - Foot Maneuvers

    Quote Originally Posted by michaeledward View Post
    So, here I am quoting Mr. Lear again.

    Anyone want to take a stab at explaining how they do a "pull drag forward"?

    I had a demonstration and instruction recently that puzzles me, and does not square with what I understand.

    Insights are appreciated.
    This is easiest way to feel a pull drag is to to a step through and let the momentum up the step through slide you forward before dropping your foot. You see this move in Muay thai all the time. Pull drag kicks are subtle variation of that pull-drag knee strike.
    Also Mastering Tsing Tao.

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    Default Re: Basics - Foot Maneuvers

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoChanger View Post
    This is easiest way to feel a pull drag is to to a step through and let the momentum up the step through slide you forward before dropping your foot. You see this move in Muay thai all the time. Pull drag kicks are subtle variation of that pull-drag knee strike.
    Can you execute the maneuver without a step through?
    Working with the front foot only from a neutral bow?

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    Default Re: Basics - Foot Maneuvers

    Quote Originally Posted by michaeledward View Post
    Can you execute the maneuver without a step through?
    Working with the front foot only from a neutral bow?
    I would step up with the back foot, a bit; so, there was some distance traveled with the lead leg. You really need to check out The Benny The Jet foot work on the web. I swear by that stuff.
    Also Mastering Tsing Tao.

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    Default Re: Basics - Foot Maneuvers

    Quote Originally Posted by michaeledward View Post
    Can you execute the maneuver without a step through?
    Working with the front foot only from a neutral bow?
    Before this thread dissapears for another five years, pull drags are also anti sweeping maneuvers. You are being swept, and you counter by pull dragging your back foot along with the momentum of his sweep or attempted buckle.
    Also Mastering Tsing Tao.

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    Default Re: Basics - Foot Maneuvers

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoChanger View Post
    Before this thread dissapears for another five years, pull drags are also anti sweeping maneuvers. You are being swept, and you counter by pull dragging your back foot along with the momentum of his sweep or attempted buckle.
    Oh, and then there is kicking something and using the stability or semi-stability of that to move ourselves off the line of attack, but I don't think you are pull dragging any more, you are parkouring. Ha Ha
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