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Thread: using a front stance for the vertical outward block

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    Question using a front stance for the vertical outward block

    One of the things I have noticed about Ed Parker kenpo is that a vertical outward block with the forward arm and hand is done from a neutral bow stance. For actual combat and training practice, can a vertical outward block with the forward arm and hand be done from a stance that is facing more squarely to the front?

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    Question Re: using a front stance for the vertical outward block

    It seems that no person of this group understands my post-message directly before this one. What I mean is: for actual combat and for training practice, does Ed Parker Kenpo allow a neutral bow stance to be altered to a forward bow stance when doing a vertical outward hand and arm striking block with the front arm because it is more basic to block with the front arm and hand when in a neutral bow stance.

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    Default Re: using a front stance for the vertical outward block

    Hello Sir,

    This is my humble opinion and I am only a novice (Orange Belt), but in short "Why commit yourself?"
    In Kenpo everything must make sense, so why transition yourself into a commited Forward Bow stance without delivering a powerful "major move"??
    Kenpo uses flowing motion, so after the block are you ready to quickly respond to the opposite hand punch or kick?

    Control the attacker's height, width and depth zones, open him up and then transition into a Forward Bow stance and deliver a powerful strike!!

    DISCLAIMER:
    This is my own opinion and does not reflect the opinions of anyone else on this forum. I'm sure a more advanced student could give you more information, or correct information for that matter.
    What have I learned from this???

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    Default Re: using a front stance for the vertical outward block

    The only time I can think of that I would use a forward-bow with the vertical outward block would be in conjuction with a hook (with lead hand) to "tweak" the elbow. For example, against a right straight punch (assuming we're in a left neutral bow) execute inward hooking parry with lead hand as you step slightly with lead foot to about 10, pivot to forward bow with verticle outward block with rear arm to the outside of the attackers arm.

    I doubt that I'd go to a forward bow with a block unless I was doing something else as well, e.g. simultaneous block and strike (going to forward bow to bring my rear hand into play).

    Just my $0.02
    The test: "Will this work so that I can use it instinctively in vital combat against an opponent who is determined to prevent me from doing so, and who is striving to eliminate me by fair means or foul?" ~ Col. Rex Applegate

    Matt K.

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    Question Re: using a front stance for the vertical outward block

    Thanks for the replies, but it seems that Ed Parker Kenpo does not specifically state what blocks can be used with what stances. What if I want to use a vertical outward block with my front hand and arm from a front bow stance? In Infinite Insights Into Kenpo, Physical Analyzation 1, volume 2, it is printed that there is a stance called a rear bow. Does that mean there can be a front bow stance for training practice and actual combat?

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    Default Re: using a front stance for the vertical outward block

    Yes, there is a stance called the Forward bow in which you have a weight distribution of 60% on lead leg and 40% on the rear leg. In this stance the rear leg is straight with the heel of the rear foot on the ground (to generate ground leverage). Uses for this stance include (but are not limited to) squaring the body to strike with the rear hand; turning the body line up for a kick with the rear leg (similar to the way in which a cat-stance is a transitory stance for a front kick). This stance is also the final position in a rear sliding-leg sweep.
    Because of the weight distribution and the fact that the rear foot is rooted to the ground, this stance provides a lot of stability on the 12-6 line (front to back). However, it is very weak on the 9-3 line (side to side). You also lack the mobility that you have in the Neutral bow because you're weight is unequally distributed.
    The strong and weak lines of this stance, in my opinion, don't make it the most ideal stance to block from (particularly for circular attacks). For example, in the technique Securing The Storm (right roundhouse club attack from 12:00) you step into a L. Neutral bow with an outward extended block. Becuase of the fact that you're blocking a circular strike, the force is coming in from the side more than from the front. In a forward bow you would be susceptible to being knocked over due to the poor stability on your 9-3 axis.
    Beyond that, I guess you could block from this stance, however, if you're already in this stance (as opposed to blocking from a N. Bow) you lose the torque that you would be able to utilize by pivoting from a Neutral to a Forward bow (as you do in Attacking Mace for example). And as I stated earlier, you also suffer a decrease in your mobilty.

    This is just my take on the whole thing, I don't know if I'm even addressing the question that you're asking. Hopefully someone that knows what they're talking about will chime in.
    The test: "Will this work so that I can use it instinctively in vital combat against an opponent who is determined to prevent me from doing so, and who is striving to eliminate me by fair means or foul?" ~ Col. Rex Applegate

    Matt K.

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    Default Re: using a front stance for the vertical outward block

    now, for training practice and actual combat, i am sure i know what i want to do with the basic vertical outward striking block. i want to use a training horse stance or a diagonal training horse stance that faces the front side of the shoulder-width square. if i do a vertical outward block from a neutral bow stance, i think it should be done by altering the width of the block to correspond to the altered width from the training horse stance to the neutral bow stance.
    Last edited by 50%grandmaster; 09-10-2005 at 04:15 PM. Reason: to insert something and to delete something

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    Default Re: using a front stance for the vertical outward block

    Well, yeah, there's a rear bow, and it's used in at least one kenpo technique. However, if you fight out of it, you'll quite likely get yer front knee broke.

    And as was explained by another poster, the forward bow isn't a great stance to stay in: it's a transitional stance, or a power-generating stance, but staying in it will severely restrict your mobility.

    No there aren't really, "this stance, this block," demands in Mr. Parker's books. However, there are ideas like zone theory, and anatomical alignment, that offer some pretty clear directions. What's more, the techniques and forms and sets are the way they are for reasons beyond immediate, practical purposes: they also teach principles.

    I'd recommend, a) learning a good stance set, b) learning Coordination Set 1, c) waiting till you learn Long Form 1 to really get into this issue. They'll teach you more--if you work them--than overly-complex theory will.

    Or so I hope. Good question, in any case.

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    Question Re: using a front stance for the vertical outward block

    Quote Originally Posted by rmcr
    Well, yeah, there's a rear bow, and it's used in at least one kenpo technique. However, if you fight out of it, you'll quite likely get yer front knee broke.

    And as was explained by another poster, the forward bow isn't a great stance to stay in: it's a transitional stance, or a power-generating stance, but staying in it will severely restrict your mobility.

    No there aren't really, "this stance, this block," demands in Mr. Parker's books. However, there are ideas like zone theory, and anatomical alignment, that offer some pretty clear directions. What's more, the techniques and forms and sets are the way they are for reasons beyond immediate, practical purposes: they also teach principles.

    I'd recommend, a) learning a good stance set, b) learning Coordination Set 1, c) waiting till you learn Long Form 1 to really get into this issue. They'll teach you more--if you work them--than overly-complex theory will.

    Or so I hope. Good question, in any case.
    what is anatomical alignment in Ed Parker's Kenpo and what blocks with what stances does it allow?

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    Default Re: using a front stance for the vertical outward block

    Quote Originally Posted by 50%grandmaster
    One of the things I have noticed about Ed Parker kenpo is that a vertical outward block with the forward arm and hand is done from a neutral bow stance. For actual combat and training practice, can a vertical outward block with the forward arm and hand be done from a stance that is facing more squarely to the front?
    In actual combat who says you really have to block? We also pary.
    "To hear is to doubt. To see is to be deceived. But to feel is to believe." -- SGM Ed Parker

    "Sic vis pacem parabellum - If you want peace, prepare for war." -- "The Punisher"


    "Praying Mantis, very good. . . For catching bugs." --Jackie Chan

    "A horse stance is great for taking a dump" --Jet Li

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    Default Re: using a front stance for the vertical outward block

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpo-Sloth
    Hello Sir,

    This is my humble opinion and I am only a novice (Orange Belt), but in short "Why commit yourself?"
    In Kenpo everything must make sense, so why transition yourself into a commited Forward Bow stance without delivering a powerful "major move"??
    Kenpo uses flowing motion, so after the block are you ready to quickly respond to the opposite hand punch or kick?

    Control the attacker's height, width and depth zones, open him up and then transition into a Forward Bow stance and deliver a powerful strike!!

    DISCLAIMER:
    This is my own opinion and does not reflect the opinions of anyone else on this forum. I'm sure a more advanced student could give you more information, or correct information for that matter.
    I agree with you 100%
    "To hear is to doubt. To see is to be deceived. But to feel is to believe." -- SGM Ed Parker

    "Sic vis pacem parabellum - If you want peace, prepare for war." -- "The Punisher"


    "Praying Mantis, very good. . . For catching bugs." --Jackie Chan

    "A horse stance is great for taking a dump" --Jet Li

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    Default Re: using a front stance for the vertical outward block

    The only good answer to that, 50%, is: learn the material, find out for yourself. For one thing (and it could be just me), I suspect that yours aren't real questions--mainly, at this poiint, because you've been given answers you don't seem to want.

    Get through Coord. Set 1, Stance Set 1, and Long 1, and ask again.

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    Default Re: using a front stance for the vertical outward block

    thanks for all of the replies. i am trying to understand if Ed Parker Kenpo allows any stance for any block when actually fighting or for training practice.

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    Smile Re: using a front stance for the vertical outward block

    I think you will find the answer in short form 2. It has been my experience that if I am going to use a outward block it will be done in a neutral bow. From there if I where to rotate to a forward bow it would be to throw a punch and at this point I would rotate the outward block into a extended outward block.


    In the beginning stages of kenpo will find the movement going 1 & 2 & 3. What I mean by this is each move is done on a individual basis. As you become more advanced it becomes 1 with 2. So your block becomes extended outward w/punch instead of outward block AND punch.

    As someone stated above you could do a forward bow outward block, but why? It would be a waste of motion.

    Ray

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    Question Re: using a front stance for the vertical outward block

    thanks for the replies and I now know what I mean by using a vertical outward block from a front stance with the forward hand and arm. Basically, what I am aiming to understand is: For EPAK, during real combat and/or during training practice, can any basic striking block with the front-most hand and arm be done from any stance that a person wants to use?

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    Default Re: using a front stance for the vertical outward block

    Quote Originally Posted by 50%grandmaster
    thanks for the replies and I now know what I mean by using a vertical outward block from a front stance with the forward hand and arm. Basically, what I am aiming to understand is: For EPAK, during real combat and/or during training practice, can any basic striking block with the front-most hand and arm be done from any stance that a person wants to use?
    We really do not teach using a forward bow while blocking. In short 2 as explained before that is the closest that we get to it. We do a upward block with one hand, drop to a close kneel and than deliver a right middle knuckle strike. The only practicle time that I would use a forward dow is if I were transitioning from a block or punch to a reverse punch. This delivers the punch with more power because of tourque and you are able to gains reach.
    "To hear is to doubt. To see is to be deceived. But to feel is to believe." -- SGM Ed Parker

    "Sic vis pacem parabellum - If you want peace, prepare for war." -- "The Punisher"


    "Praying Mantis, very good. . . For catching bugs." --Jackie Chan

    "A horse stance is great for taking a dump" --Jet Li

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    Default Re: using a front stance for the vertical outward block

    Quote Originally Posted by 50%grandmaster
    Basically, what I am aiming to understand is: For EPAK, during real combat and/or during training practice, can any basic striking block with the front-most hand and arm be done from any stance that a person wants to use?
    Can it be done? Yes. Is it the best option? Probably not.

    If I wanted to, I could practice every block I know from a one-legged stance. However all this would accomplish is working my balance for that stance. If I tried to block a committed attack from that stance I'd probably get knocked on my butt because I don't have a very stable base.

    So yeah, you can use whatever block/stance combination you choose. However, as has been explained, certain blocks aren't very efficient or effective from certain stances.
    The test: "Will this work so that I can use it instinctively in vital combat against an opponent who is determined to prevent me from doing so, and who is striving to eliminate me by fair means or foul?" ~ Col. Rex Applegate

    Matt K.

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    Default Re: using a front stance for the vertical outward block

    Quote Originally Posted by kenpotex
    If I tried to block a committed attack from that stance I'd probably get knocked on my butt because I don't have a very stable base.
    Not necessarily. Take Sheild and hammer in both the extension and base technique you are steping into or back into.....wait that is bracing, nevermind you are right. Pretty much all techniques that we do with a block in the beginning are done from a neurtal bow unless we are using bacing or other things.

    But is not the factor with all the forms. Take Cordination Set 2 for example...doing the inward block with a forward bow.
    "To hear is to doubt. To see is to be deceived. But to feel is to believe." -- SGM Ed Parker

    "Sic vis pacem parabellum - If you want peace, prepare for war." -- "The Punisher"


    "Praying Mantis, very good. . . For catching bugs." --Jackie Chan

    "A horse stance is great for taking a dump" --Jet Li

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    Default Re: using a front stance for the vertical outward block

    Quote Originally Posted by parkerkarate
    But is not the factor with all the forms. Take Cordination Set 2 for example...doing the inward block with a forward bow.
    True, but one could argue that we do an inward block there just to avoid doing the same thing (reverse punch) that we do in Coord. Set 1 since the next move (rear-leg front kick and lead-hand jab) are the same in both sets.

    I'm sure there are other applications that we could talk about but I'm just coming off a 9-hour night-shift so my brain is pretty much asleep already.
    The test: "Will this work so that I can use it instinctively in vital combat against an opponent who is determined to prevent me from doing so, and who is striving to eliminate me by fair means or foul?" ~ Col. Rex Applegate

    Matt K.

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    Default Re: using a front stance for the vertical outward block

    Quote Originally Posted by kenpotex
    True, but one could argue that we do an inward block there just to avoid doing the same thing (reverse punch) that we do in Coord. Set 1 since the next move (rear-leg front kick and lead-hand jab) are the same in both sets.

    I'm sure there are other applications that we could talk about but I'm just coming off a 9-hour night-shift so my brain is pretty much asleep already.

    LOL. Ok give your brain a rest than we can talk more.
    "To hear is to doubt. To see is to be deceived. But to feel is to believe." -- SGM Ed Parker

    "Sic vis pacem parabellum - If you want peace, prepare for war." -- "The Punisher"


    "Praying Mantis, very good. . . For catching bugs." --Jackie Chan

    "A horse stance is great for taking a dump" --Jet Li

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