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Thread: Begging Hands question

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    Default Begging Hands question

    Well here we go again I have a question about a tech but also about more than just this tech. Last night I learned the tech begging hands, and to be honest at first I thought well it’s cool to know a defense against a double wrist grab but how likely is that to ever happen. Not to get off track but my instructor told us a story about a student he had in the past that said the same thing I was thinking but against captured twigs. To make a long story short the guy said he would never let some one get him in a bear hug. My instructor told him well never say never and that this is a required tech to get his next belt. The guy was like ok how does it go and my instructor grabbed him in a rear bear hug. Moral of the story never say never. So that opened my eyes to that statement never say never because you can not know what someone might do in a fight. People make bad decisions when under stress.

    But to get back on topic I read through the tech before class to see what I would be going over in class last night. Now I am very much so a right brain kind of person. I can’t just read the moves then take off doing the tech. I am one of those people I have to get my hands dirty. I have to take something apart and rebuild it to “get it” but then I own it after that.

    So after we went over the tech about a 100 times with partners I was able to really get it down. Well I was taking to big of a first step into a cat stance but once my instructor corrected that I was able to run with it. I helped my partner get the moves down a little better then I started to experiment once I got home. Here is where my real questions are.

    I am not real sure on the entire lingo but I will do my best to ask the questions. In this tech we do two strikes to the opponent’s groin the first a front snap kick then a rear hammer fist from a left rear twist stance. (I love that hammer fist from the rear twist stance by the way). But in the first front snap kick to the groin and the palm heel to the face wouldn’t that pretty much disable the opponent? Kind of seems overkill with two groin shots and a palm heel and just for good measure a lifting forearm strike to the jaw.

    I also hear a lot of talk about master key techs, I somewhat understand what everyone’s talking about techs like delayed sword can be used against many attacks, as can parts of shield and hammer, five swords and I’m sure many more. Part of what I am asking would the twisting stance from begging hands into a rear hammer fist be part of another master key set? That seems like that could be thrown into some of what I have learned but will become more useful as I get some of the more advanced techs. It’s strange but I feel like I just got to the first base camp at the bottom of Mt. Everest and I am now ready to get started up the hill. But I know I still have a long hard trip ahead of me. I would love to go more into detail and talk about a lot more of the techs but I am at work and can’t be on this box of wires all day. I just kind of have to pop in and out all day. (:
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    Default Re: Begging Hands question

    Are you sure we're talkin' about begging hands? Front 2 handed wrist grab to both wrists; step back left, turn the hands up, right cat then right front kick, followed by a step through left front kick, double palm heel strike to the pec muscle?

    The double palm heel could be topic of debate depending upon lineage, and instructor. I was taught at the sternum w/a downward torqueing force. I've also seen the palm heel directly to the side of the pec grabbing the pec muscle.

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    Default Re: Begging Hands question

    Rear hammer fist from a left rear twist stance ?

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    Default Re: Begging Hands question

    I was taught an right upward thrusting punch with a left reverse shape of the crane palm.

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    Default

    We are talking about this technique right? This was taken out of our reference library. Also, please use the reference guides down at the very bottom of the pages in the threads. There are always alike threads listed.


    Begging Hands (Front- Two-Hand Grab to Wrists)
    1. An attacker at 12 o'clock directly grabs your wrists with both hands; their left hand to your right wrist, right hand to your left wrist.

    2. Step back with your left foot to 6 o'clock into a right neutral bow facing 12 o'clock as you circle your hands from the inside out (up, over, and on top) of your attacker's wrists, simulating the begging hands.

    3. Immediately slide your right foot back into a transitional right cat stance. Execute a right front kick to your attacker's groin.

    4. Land in a right neutral bow facing 12 o'clock. Execute a left front kick to your attacker's chin or chest.

    5. Land in a left neutral bow facing 12 o'clock as you utilize back-up mass and execute twin torquing palm strikes under your attacker's ribcage.

    6. Cross out to 4:30.

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    Default Re: Begging Hands question

    Quote Originally Posted by jfarnsworth
    We are talking about this technique right? This was taken out of our reference library. Also, please use the reference guides down at the very bottom of the pages in the threads. There are always alike threads listed.


    Begging Hands (Front- Two-Hand Grab to Wrists)
    1. An attacker at 12 o'clock directly grabs your wrists with both hands; their left hand to your right wrist, right hand to your left wrist.

    2. Step back with your left foot to 6 o'clock into a right neutral bow facing 12 o'clock as you circle your hands from the inside out (up, over, and on top) of your attacker's wrists, simulating the begging hands.

    3. Immediately slide your right foot back into a transitional right cat stance. Execute a right front kick to your attacker's groin.

    4. Land in a right neutral bow facing 12 o'clock. Execute a left front kick to your attacker's chin or chest.

    5. Land in a left neutral bow facing 12 o'clock as you utilize back-up mass and execute twin torquing palm strikes under your attacker's ribcage.

    6. Cross out to 4:30.
    Ok sorry I see there is a difference in how we do the tech. I don’t have time right this min to list out all the tech but I will be back at lunch and I will list out were we are different.

    Oh and I think I may have posted this in the wrong place I don’t have any reference page numbers to list.
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    Default Re: Begging Hands question

    Hey, no problem. All is well.

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    Default Re: Begging Hands question

    Quote Originally Posted by jfarnsworth
    We are talking about this technique right? This was taken out of our reference library. Also, please use the reference guides down at the very bottom of the pages in the threads. There are always alike threads listed.


    Begging Hands (Front- Two-Hand Grab to Wrists)
    1. An attacker at 12 o'clock directly grabs your wrists with both hands; their left hand to your right wrist, right hand to your left wrist.

    2. Step back with your left foot to 6 o'clock into a right neutral bow facing 12 o'clock as you circle your hands from the inside out (up, over, and on top) of your attacker's wrists, simulating the begging hands.

    3. Immediately slide your right foot back into a transitional right cat stance. Execute a right front kick to your attacker's groin.

    4. Land in a right neutral bow facing 12 o'clock. Execute a left front kick to your attacker's chin or chest.

    5. Land in a left neutral bow facing 12 o'clock as you utilize back-up mass and execute twin torquing palm strikes under your attacker's ribcage.

    6. Cross out to 4:30.
    yup, this is how we do it.... i just got the extention the other night at class.. what a cool tehcnique..... im really likeing this whole extention stuff...
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    Default Re: Begging Hands question

    Quote Originally Posted by jfarnsworth
    We are talking about this technique right? This was taken out of our reference library. Also, please use the reference guides down at the very bottom of the pages in the threads. There are always alike threads listed.


    Begging Hands (Front- Two-Hand Grab to Wrists)
    1. An attacker at 12 o'clock directly grabs your wrists with both hands; their left hand to your right wrist, right hand to your left wrist.

    2. Step back with your left foot to 6 o'clock into a right neutral bow facing 12 o'clock as you circle your hands from the inside out (up, over, and on top) of your attacker's wrists, simulating the begging hands.

    3. Immediately slide your right foot back into a transitional right cat stance. Execute a right front kick to your attacker's groin.

    4. Land in a right neutral bow facing 12 o'clock. Execute a left front kick to your attacker's chin or chest.

    5. Land in a left neutral bow facing 12 o'clock as you utilize back-up mass and execute twin torquing palm strikes under your attacker's ribcage.

    6. Cross out to 4:30.
    as promised

    Double wrist grabs from the front.

    From a natural stance your left foot steps back to 6:00 into a right cat
    Both hands turn palm up and on top of the opponents wrists

    Your right foot does a front snap kick to the groin

    Right foot plants forward into a right neutral bow
    Right hand does a palm heel to the jaw
    Your left is a positional check

    Your left foot crosses behind the right into a left rear twist stance
    Right hand does a downward hammer fist to the groin
    Left hand again is a positional check

    Right foot sweeps the opponents left leg to 1:30 into a right reverse bow
    Right hand does a lifting forearm strike to the jaw
    Left hand is a positional check

    Cover out to 8:00

    I tried to put this is my own words as much as I can since this is copyrighted by Mr. Gorham. I just had a lot of questions on this as far as the twist stance to hammer fist. I think that can be placed into a few other techs as well.

    I am also curious as to all the ways others do this tech if every one doesn’t mind I will print what was posted so I can try all the other ways that were listed.
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    Default Re: Begging Hands question

    Quote Originally Posted by 2004hemi
    In this tech we do two strikes to the opponent’s groin the first a front snap kick then a rear hammer fist from a left rear twist stance. (I love that hammer fist from the rear twist stance by the way). But in the first front snap kick to the groin and the palm heel to the face wouldn’t that pretty much disable the opponent?
    You must be getting the technique confused with another one because this doesn't sound like Begging Hands.
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    Default Re: Begging Hands question

    Quote Originally Posted by 2004hemi
    as promised

    Double wrist grabs from the front.

    From a natural stance your left foot steps back to 6:00 into a right cat
    Both hands turn palm up and on top of the opponents wrists

    Your right foot does a front snap kick to the groin

    Right foot plants forward into a right neutral bow
    Right hand does a palm heel to the jaw
    Your left is a positional check

    Your left foot crosses behind the right into a left rear twist stance
    Right hand does a downward hammer fist to the groin
    Left hand again is a positional check

    Right foot sweeps the opponents left leg to 1:30 into a right reverse bow
    Right hand does a lifting forearm strike to the jaw
    Left hand is a positional check

    Cover out to 8:00

    I don't want to get into a political debate here with your instructor, but yikes...why such a drastic change??

    Begging Hands is a fairly straightforward technique and it bugs me when someone calls it by the same name and it is nothing like the ideal phase technique.

    I already know the extension will be way different as well given the position of the defender to the opponent based on the description above.

    Sorry....just being honest.
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    Default Re: Begging Hands question

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook
    I don't want to get into a political debate here with your instructor, but yikes...why such a drastic change??
    It sort of sound like he fused two techniques. I'll have to think what the other one is. Anyone know what I mean? Like it's one for maybe a kick. The end looks familiar, but it's not like any begging hands I've learned.

    It's not even like the Tracy versions of this technique.

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    Default Re: Begging Hands question

    Quote Originally Posted by 2004hemi
    I tried to put this is my own words as much as I can since this is copyrighted by Mr. Gorham. I just had a lot of questions on this as far as the twist stance to hammer fist.
    I think you'll have to ask Mr. Gorham about it. I've never (and apparently others here as well) heard it done like that. Let us know what you find ou, ok?

    I am also curious as to all the ways others do this tech if every one doesn’t mind I will print what was posted so I can try all the other ways that were listed.
    It can't hurt to have more tools in the tool box
    Don't tell that to Doc! I'd have agreed with you not long ago. I really like that concept, but after listening to what he says on the subject, I'm reevaluating my position here. An open mind is an uncomfortable thing to aquire...

    Begging Hands escape from a front double wrist grab

    *L ft back into R neutral bow as you turn hands up and anchor elbows, pulling back.
    **keep hands open
    **this should not break his grasp, but should pull him forward, effecting ballance, also weakens his grip

    *without disturbing flow, slide R ft back into R 45" cat and immediately deliver a R front snapig ball kick to his groin, planting forward.
    **this is what frees your hands
    **his butt will drop, back arched, torso forward, and head will come up, hands will probably drop to groin

    *L snaping ball kick to sternum (alt: chin).
    **this will bring him upright, arms will start to fly outward

    * plant forward into a L neutral bow (alt: wide kneel/lunge, if he was moved back too much from your kick- this is why the kick snaps instead of thrusts, though) as you double heel palm strike the floating ribs.

    Alternatively, you can free your hands on the first move by turning your hands up, against his thumbs, and raising your arms higher (how I originally learned this tech). But this does not pull him off ballance and may pull him up into a front kick of his own.

    Just some of my notes, hope it helps.

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    Default Re: Begging Hands question

    It just sounds to me like there's a couple mixed together.

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    Default Re: Begging Hands question

    From a natural stance your left foot steps back to 6:00 (sorry I left out –the Right foot into a right cat )Both hands turn palm up and on top of the opponents wrists—(At the same time that you step back with the left foot) so it is one motion

    Your right foot does a front snap kick to the groin—At this point it still seems the same as described above
    Right foot plants forward into a right neutral bow
    Right hand does a palm heel to the jaw—I have only had a min to read this so far so as far as I can tell everyone else does a right kick to the face in place of a palm heel? Your left Hand is a positional check

    Your left foot crosses behind the right into a left rear twist stance
    Right hand does a downward hammer fist to the groin
    Left hand again is a positional check

    Right foot sweeps the opponents left leg to 1:30 into a right reverse bow
    Right hand does a lifting forearm strike to the jaw
    Left hand is a positional check

    Cover out to 8:00


    Mr. Seabrook I welcome your opinion but I just want to say that I didn’t set out to start a debate between yourself and my instructor. And I also don’t want to get caught in the middle of a debate of Kenpo giants I am just looking for the answer to my original question.

    The Dan--- “Don't tell that to Doc! I'd have agreed with you not long ago. I really like that concept, but after listening to what he says on the subject, I'm reevaluating my position here. An open mind is an uncomfortable thing to acquire...”

    Again I don’t want to get into a debate with a Kenpo giant but I am very curious what his stance is on learning more than one way to do a tech?


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    Default Re: Begging Hands question

    it almost sounds like the extention to triggered salute???

    or the end of entwined maces
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    Default Re: Begging Hands question

    Leave it to me to open my mouth and open a BIG can of worms.
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    Default Re: Begging Hands question

    Quote Originally Posted by 2004hemi
    Right foot plants forward into a right neutral bow
    Right hand does a palm heel to the jaw—...everyone else does a right kick to the face in place of a palm heel?
    The heel palm strike would work if you get too close for the kick to his sternum or face. But remember, you steped back and created distance on the first move. Also, consider that this is a defense that would almost never be used against an initial attack. More likely, you were already tied up in close and he grabed your wrists for some reason. Think of the possibe/probable postures he'd be in with this scenario. You're both probably bent at the waist, heads close and working for a clinch, shoot or throw of some sort. Even the ideal response that I described for a groin kick is unlikely, and would have to be modified to fit any different posture of the aggressor. If he's bent, and you pull him forward, both the first and second strikes will need some distance. That second is going to need a lot of oomph to lift him as well. Angles of incidence will also change accordingly, which may make a heel palm difficult. Just something to consider.


    The Dan--- “Don't tell that to Doc! I'd have agreed with you not long ago. I really like that concept, but after listening to what he says on the subject, I'm reevaluating my position here. An open mind is an uncomfortable thing to acquire...”

    Again I don’t want to get into a debate with a Kenpo giant but I am very curious what his stance is on learning more than one way to do a tech?
    Do a search of Docs' posts andyou'll find several places where he's commented on this- some of which took me to task. Basically, he says that you need a good foundation in the IDEAL techniques before exploring alternatives. Everyone agrees with that, but Doc says you shouldn't address what ifs and alternatives until after black. He says that instead of aquireing ingrained neurological responses in the default techs, you get a lot of "synaptic clutter." Best thing would be to ask him, then listen for yourself (after the search of what's already been said).

    Thinking about it, he talks about these techs teaching a lot more than just a set of default moves, so he may mean more than just neurological patterns/muscle memory. I'd be interested in what he says. Ask him- he's probably getting tired of me bugging him for answers!

    And, I know, I just gave you a big what if scenario here! I'm incorrigable- never said I wasn't.

    (Edited my typo- "hell palm" might be a good description, but it ain't good Kenpo talk.)

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