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Thread: Snaking Talons

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    Default Snaking Talons

    Okay my first Green Technique. This is how I wrote it down. Any suggestions are apreciated.
    Attempted two hand wrist grab

    1. Grab opponents left wrist underneath with your left hand
    2. Circle over the right hand and hook back grabbing and crossing opponents arms while transitioning back to a right 45 degree cat stance
    3. Pull forward while executing a right front snap kick
    4. Land and step forward to a left rear twist
    5. Execute a right back kick while releasing the arms
    Double Cross Out

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    Default Re: Snaking Talons

    We run this technique from a two handed push, fairly high on the body. It also will work for a a left - right punch combination. I would say that you are correct, if working against a grab, to counter grab.

    As I read you're description, you are moving forward toward the attacker throughout this technique ... In our school, we are moving, mostly, away from the attacker.


    Attacker coming from 12 O'Clock with a high two-handed push.

    Step Back to a right neutral bow while your right hand moves in a figure-eight shape, over the attackers left hand, and under the attackers right hand. (Your left hand is covering your middle zone).

    Grab the attackers right forearm as you execute a right front ball snap kick. Conclude the kick with a right front cross-over foot maneuver toward 7 O'Clock. Pull the attacker with you with (your right hand grab) toward 7 O'Clock (pulling the attackers arm toward your left hip).

    When landing in the right crossover, execute a left back thrust kick. (you will be pulling the attacker into the kick) followed immediately by a right back kick. (This will be a 'front to back' back chicken kick type thing).

    Right front crossover out.
    Sort of ...

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    Default Re: Snaking Talons

    Quote Originally Posted by michaeledward
    We run this technique from a two handed push, fairly high on the body. It also will work for a a left - right punch combination. I would say that you are correct, if working against a grab, to counter grab.

    As I read you're description, you are moving forward toward the attacker throughout this technique ... In our school, we are moving, mostly, away from the attacker.


    Attacker coming from 12 O'Clock with a high two-handed push.

    Step Back to a right neutral bow while your right hand moves in a figure-eight shape, over the attackers left hand, and under the attackers right hand. (Your left hand is covering your middle zone).

    Grab the attackers right forearm as you execute a right front ball snap kick. Conclude the kick with a right front cross-over foot maneuver toward 7 O'Clock. Pull the attacker with you with (your right hand grab) toward 7 O'Clock (pulling the attackers arm toward your left hip).

    When landing in the right crossover, execute a left back thrust kick. (you will be pulling the attacker into the kick) followed immediately by a right back kick. (This will be a 'front to back' back chicken kick type thing).

    Right front crossover out.

    Sort of ...
    yes it will work on the left right combo.... you will learn a 2nd brown technique "entwining maces" that starts out that way..
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    Default Re: Snaking Talons

    I like Snaking Talons as a left right because of the belt chart at my school. The 2nd Brown chart at my school runs:

    Protecting Fans
    Unfurling Crane
    * defensive cross
    Circling Fans
    Snaking Talons

    So, the four of the first five techniques on our belt chart work for the (Left Right) combination. That's the only reason I like Snaking Talons as a left right. I know the ideal phase is a push ... but when working on these techniques, it's fun to work the similar attacks in different ways.

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    Default Re: Snaking Talons

    Quote Originally Posted by michaeledward
    We run this technique from a two handed push, fairly high on the body. It also will work for a a left - right punch combination. I would say that you are correct, if working against a grab, to counter grab.

    As I read you're description, you are moving forward toward the attacker throughout this technique ... In our school, we are moving, mostly, away from the attacker.


    Attacker coming from 12 O'Clock with a high two-handed push.

    Step Back to a right neutral bow while your right hand moves in a figure-eight shape, over the attackers left hand, and under the attackers right hand. (Your left hand is covering your middle zone).

    Grab the attackers right forearm as you execute a right front ball snap kick. Conclude the kick with a right front cross-over foot maneuver toward 7 O'Clock. Pull the attacker with you with (your right hand grab) toward 7 O'Clock (pulling the attackers arm toward your left hip).

    When landing in the right crossover, execute a left back thrust kick. (you will be pulling the attacker into the kick) followed immediately by a right back kick. (This will be a 'front to back' back chicken kick type thing).

    Right front crossover out.
    Sort of ...
    Thanks for the observations! We are moving back into the cat stance, so we are moving away.

    Thanks,
    John

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    Default Re: Snaking Talons

    Entwing Maces I cannot wait. If I have not already said it Congratulations on 1st Black!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    Default Re: Snaking Talons

    We do not use the double left/right rear kicks (chicken kick technique). This kick often times throws you off balance - especially if your first kick is a glancing blow or you should you leave the ground to execute the kicks. Try to faint/fake the left rear kick and with full power and better balance - execute the right rear thrusting kick (sometimes referred to as thrusting heel or mule kick).

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    Default Re: Snaking Talons

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpoist
    We do not use the double left/right rear kicks (chicken kick technique). This kick often times throws you off balance - especially if your first kick is a glancing blow or you should you leave the ground to execute the kicks. Try to faint/fake the left rear kick and with full power and better balance - execute the right rear thrusting kick (sometimes referred to as thrusting heel or mule kick).
    For most students and instructors, I would say that you would be correct. But I have seen some, through DILIGENT PRACTICE, exceute the most effective chicken kick one could imagine.
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    Default Re: Snaking Talons

    Question for everyone:

    What do you (or your instructor) teach as the catalyst for Snaking Talon?

    This question makes all of the difference in how the technique should be executed for maximum efficacy.
    I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me.
    (Phillipians 4:13)


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    Default Re: Snaking Talons

    evn-if condition from alternating maces. opponnent has readjusted to your displaced center and continues to push forward.

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    Default Re: Snaking Talons

    Quote Originally Posted by pete
    evn-if condition from alternating maces. opponnent has readjusted to your displaced center and continues to push forward.
    I agree Pete...well put.
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    Default Re: Snaking Talons

    We teach this at blue here is what we do:

    Snaking Talon(Front two hand push)

    1. Standing naturally, drop back with your left foot toward 6:00 into a right neutral bow (facing 12:00) as your right hand and arm loops a figure eight (following a path and not a line). Begin with a right inward handsword (with elbow anchored) on the outside and top of your opponent’s left arm. Flow into a right extended outward handsword on the outside of your opponent’s right arm (with elbow still anchored). (Both actions are to diagonally check your opponent’s Height and Width Zones by conveniently crisscrossing your opponent’s arms diagonally and down). During this action your left hand checks at your solar plexus

    2. As you continue the flow of your right hand, grab your opponent’s right wrist with your right hand while facing back into a right front 45 degree cat stance.

    3. Without interrupting the flow of your action have your right hand pull your opponent’s right arm toward you (down and to your right), as you deliver a right front snapping ball kick to your opponent’s groin. (Your opponent should bend forward at the waist)

    4. With your right kicking foot still in the air, execute a right front crossover toward 7:30 into a left rear twist stance (facing your opponent). (Your opponent’s upper body should once again become partially upright)

    5. Have your right hand release your opponent’s right wrist and immediately pivot counterclockwise as you deliver a left spinning back heel kick to your opponent’s abdominal area (toward 12:00). (Your opponent should bend forward at the waist, with his entire body driven back.)

    6. With your back facing your opponent, hop onto your left leg while edging toward your opponent, (gauge distance correctly) and deliver a right back heel kick. This is actually a back chicken kick to any opening on your opponent, preferably the face or chest.

    Double Cover out toward 7:30.
    PARKER - HERMAN - SECK

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    Default Re: Snaking Talons

    Quote Originally Posted by crane557
    Okay my first Green Technique. This is how I wrote it down. Any suggestions are apreciated.
    Attempted two hand wrist grab
    1. Grab opponents left wrist underneath with your left hand
    2. Circle over the right hand and hook back grabbing and crossing opponents arms while transitioning back to a right 45 degree cat stance
    3. Pull forward while executing a right front snap kick
    4. Land and step forward to a left rear twist
    5. Execute a right back kick while releasing the arms
    Double Cross Out
    This is pretty much how I learned it- only for the two punches-- left then right punches. We do the figure 8 parry with the right hand- starting from a right neutral bow (with the inward parry to the first punch) and moving to a right cat stance (with the parry/grab to the second punch). We pull the right wrist down towards our right hip as we deliver the right front kick to the mid-section. We plant towards 7:30 into a right front twist stance (now pulling the attacker's right arm towards our left hip-- so that right foot and right pull land together-- Marriage of Gravity). From here, we deliver a right back kick to the mid-section.

    Some of the guys I work out with were taught with the back chicken kick- but I find it too funky to pull off and like just the back kick with one leg better.
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    Default Re: Snaking Talons

    Quote Originally Posted by Shodan
    This is pretty much how I learned it- only for the two punches-- left then right punches. We do the figure 8 parry with the right hand- starting from a right neutral bow (with the inward parry to the first punch) and moving to a right cat stance (with the parry/grab to the second punch). We pull the right wrist down towards our right hip as we deliver the right front kick to the mid-section. We plant towards 7:30 into a right front twist stance (now pulling the attacker's right arm towards our left hip-- so that right foot and right pull land together-- Marriage of Gravity). From here, we deliver a right back kick to the mid-section.

    Some of the guys I work out with were taught with the back chicken kick- but I find it too funky to pull off and like just the back kick with one leg better.
    Thanks for the input!

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    Default Re: Snaking Talons

    Quote Originally Posted by crane557
    Entwing Maces I cannot wait. If I have not already said it Congratulations on 1st Black!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    thank you
    "The sacraed rights of mankind are not to be rummaged for among old parchments or musty records. They are written, as with a sunbeam, in the whole volume of human nature, by the hand of the divinity itself, and can never be erased.""

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    The Farmer Refuted (1775)

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    Default Re: Snaking Talons

    Quote Originally Posted by Shodan
    This is pretty much how I learned it- only for the two punches-- left then right punches. We do the figure 8 parry with the right hand- starting from a right neutral bow (with the inward parry to the first punch) and moving to a right cat stance (with the parry/grab to the second punch). We pull the right wrist down towards our right hip as we deliver the right front kick to the mid-section. We plant towards 7:30 into a right front twist stance (now pulling the attacker's right arm towards our left hip-- so that right foot and right pull land together-- Marriage of Gravity). From here, we deliver a right back kick to the mid-section.

    Some of the guys I work out with were taught with the back chicken kick- but I find it too funky to pull off and like just the back kick with one leg better.
    Consider this technique is incredibly flawed in actual use for a variety of reasons, but for sure; the 'chicken back kick' is anatomically incorrect, and can and will cause injury after repeated use.
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    Default Re: Snaking Talons

    I appreciate your analysis of the techniques Doc, and I can consider that the tech. is flawed.....but without a clear example of what you are considering "flawed"- I'm having trouble!! All I can go by is what I was taught....what about the tech. do you consider flawed? And thanks.....
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    Default Re: Snaking Talons

    Quote Originally Posted by Shodan
    I appreciate your analysis of the techniques Doc, and I can consider that the tech. is flawed.....but without a clear example of what you are considering "flawed"- I'm having trouble!! All I can go by is what I was taught....what about the tech. do you consider flawed? And thanks.....
    Only cause its you.

    Snaking Talon(Front two hand push)

    1. Standing naturally, drop back with your left foot toward 6:00 into a right neutral bow (facing 12:00) as your right hand and arm loops a figure eight (following a path and not a line).
    No stability stepping back. Continued forward pressure will force you back off balance, probably to the ground to start.
    Begin with a right inward handsword (with elbow anchored) on the outside and top of your opponent’s left arm. Flow into a right extended outward handsword on the outside of your opponent’s right arm (with elbow still anchored). (Both actions are to diagonally check your opponent’s Height and Width Zones by conveniently crisscrossing your opponent’s arms diagonally and down). During this action your left hand checks at your solar plexus
    Passive hand denies structure of active hand.
    2. As you continue the flow of your right hand, grab your opponent’s right wrist with your right hand while facing back into a right front 45 degree cat stance.
    No stability to control grab, or to keep from being pushed back or falling down.
    3. Without interrupting the flow of your action have your right hand pull your opponent’s right arm toward you (down and to your right), as you deliver a right front snapping ball kick to your opponent’s groin. (Your opponent should bend forward at the waist)
    Kicks to the groin cause body to drop not bend.
    4. With your right kicking foot still in the air, execute a right front crossover toward 7:30 into a left rear twist stance (facing your opponent). (Your opponent’s upper body should once again become partially upright)


    5. Have your right hand release your opponent’s right wrist and immediately pivot counterclockwise as you deliver a left spinning back heel kick to your opponent’s abdominal area (toward 12:00). (Your opponent should bend forward at the waist, with his entire body driven back.)
    Misaligned counter body movement. Absolutely ridiculous maneuver.
    6. With your back facing your opponent, hop onto your left leg while edging toward your opponent, (gauge distance correctly) and deliver a right back heel kick. This is actually a back chicken kick to any opening on your opponent, preferably the face or chest.
    Really good way to screw up your lower lumbar vertebrae. Like I said; completely dysfunctional as described.

    Experiment:

    Have someone come forward with a committed action and just keep coming no matter what. A properly designed technique should be capable of absolutely stooping the initial attack with principles beyond attempting to ‘hurt’ the attacker.

    I know somebody is going to say they 'use it all the time,' as if they get actually attacked 'all the time.' Take it to the bank, this technique as described will get you hurt in the real world. Don't attempt this at home.
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    Default Re: Snaking Talons

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc
    Only cause its you.
    Gee, thanks!!

    Your explanation of the tech. actually broke it down as written by Crane557....ours is a little different- but not enough to change what you are saying. Back to the workshop........
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    Default Re: Snaking Talons

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook View Post
    Question for everyone:

    What do you (or your instructor) teach as the catalyst for Snaking Talon?

    This question makes all of the difference in how the technique should be executed for maximum efficacy.
    I apply a variant of the Snaking Talon derived from mucho sparring and testing vs every basic self defense situation.Standing vs. any strike.Clinch.Seated.vs attacks from any point in a 360 degree circle.Grabbling.Vs. Weapons.My Snaking Talon looks markedly different from the Standard Method that I was shown and the ones that I saw on Youtube and all of the ones that I've read onsite.The results,however, have been exemplary.Let me tell you,Snake strikes to the eye at any range cause a wide variety of:"WTH DID THIS MUTHA DO? AWWW HEEELLL NAAAW!!" golden reactions for the ages that have to be seen to be believed. Sometimes I actually laugh when I spark that reaction from my opponents.I teach the leopard fist,Serpent's head/half fist in lieu of the finger jab when sparring without visors,but with visors in isolated sparring I insist on finger jabs.Lots of them.For rounds.This drills in the ease of switching back and forth for mystudents and I.Most of the time we use my variant (which includes takedowns trips and throws) we also strike the eyes and follow with an assortment of close in blows (I'll put it up on video on my Youtube Channel in March or April,including sparring footage).I'll make my students don head gear and chest protectors and get them slammed/pushed by their partner with pretty decent vigor against a wall and make them execute Snaking Talons from there.Imho if you can't do the technique from virtually ANYWHERE,then it's not maximally functional.

    You wanna see a golden reaction? Do this technique from the guard,yet utilize eye strikes,and transform the kicks into thrusting blasting kicks that are designed to propel your opponent off you while you seek to Bridge and Roll or escape out the side.Guarantee you that it works.Bet the house on it.I mean,almost NOBODY is prepared for a Snake strike to the eyes from that close in.And if they close their eyes the first time you Snake their eyes? DO IT AGAIN.Keep thrusting their eyes and they will AUTOMATICALLY duck their heads in defense or scramble as far away from you as they can.If they duck their heads? Elbow the head.Lots.Punch and Tiger Claw the exposed neck.Lots.While explosively kicking and seeking to bridge or sweep your opponent and get back to your feet.The jits guys I do this to who manage to escape the Snake to the eyes can't get away from me fast enough.I actually had a dude run off the mat literally.Lol.Same for standup.You Snake those eyes,work to dislodge the grip,keep stepping and pivoting off line while firing Snake strikes,working sweeps throws pushes trips front and side kicks like my students and I do? No fun for the other guy.Many guffaws for the Kenpoist,though.

    My students have renamed our variant The Snake and Tiger Talon.I like it.I haven't officially renamed it,though.

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