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Thread: Deletion of EPAK Material

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    Default Deletion of EPAK Material

    I am a strong advocate of all 154 techniques, 96 extensions, all the forms, and all the sets.

    Some are clearly not. Be honest....if you are not, admit to it.

    So far, taken from another thread, it has been suggested that Leap from Danger should be deleted, as well as Coordination Set 1. I have given my reasons (albeit briefly) as to why I think they should stay.

    What else does everyone think should be deleted?
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    Default Re: Deletion of EPAK Material

    im pretty sure we follow all the material...

    i like leap from danger.. it shows you alot, with the foward roll (front or sholder) followed up with spinning to face your opponent and throwing a good/nice combination of kicks. (dont know the extention, yet)

    coordination set 1 also shows alot, targeting (if tought properly) and fighting concepts with how the body reacts to strikes, not to mention blocking with punch combo and punching and kicking at the same time... why would you want to delete these??

    i agree with you Mr. Seabrook
    "The sacraed rights of mankind are not to be rummaged for among old parchments or musty records. They are written, as with a sunbeam, in the whole volume of human nature, by the hand of the divinity itself, and can never be erased.""

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    Default Re: Deletion of EPAK Material

    I like everything in the system. I am wondering if the students shouldn't be creating their own extensions instead of using the prescribed ones though.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Deletion of EPAK Material

    Ok - from another post.....

    Someone is arguing that all of the Storm (Club) techniques should be deleted.

    I can't believe this. The Storm techniques are awesome.

    The technique "Twist of Fate" is yet another that someone is saying should go.

    I have to wonder if the people saying this were taught the techniques correctly. Sorry, I know that is going to upset some people, but yikes....
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    Default Re: Deletion of EPAK Material

    I'm not sure if I totally understand the purpose of some of the long techniques and extensions. By that I mean, I don't know how memorizing a 27 step technique will really help me on the street.

    Finger set - I'm not feeling it.

    I've trained on a couple of the Storm techniques and like them a lot. The lance techniques though, I have a harder time with them. My instructor trains us on some simpler techniques that he learned from a professional knife fighter and teaches them to us in black belt club.

    Thats just my own reaction.

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    Default Re: Deletion of EPAK Material

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook
    Ok - from another post.....

    Someone is arguing that all of the Storm (Club) techniques should be deleted.

    I can't believe this. The Storm techniques are awesome.


    The two “storm” techs that I have been taught so far (Obstructing and Defying) I like them, but I can see how Five Swords could take the place of one. (Only flaw I see in that would be no way to remove the club).
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    Default Re: Deletion of EPAK Material

    Quote Originally Posted by 2004hemi
    The two “storm” techs that I have been taught so far (Obstructing and Defying) I like them, but I can see how Five Swords could take the place of one. (Only flaw I see in that would be no way to remove the club).
    you dont have checking the storm???

    "I'm not sure if I totally understand the purpose of some of the long techniques and extensions. By that I mean, I don't know how memorizing a 27 step technique will really help me on the street."


    the reason for this is to show you diffrent points of origin.. to show you where you can go from such and such postion (weather it be your position or your opponets).. the odds of doing "a technique" buy the book in the street are small, but you might take bits and pieces of 2,3, or more techniques, depending on body position...
    "The sacraed rights of mankind are not to be rummaged for among old parchments or musty records. They are written, as with a sunbeam, in the whole volume of human nature, by the hand of the divinity itself, and can never be erased.""

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    The Farmer Refuted (1775)

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    The curriculum I've been apart of has deleted the second set of sets, 4 of the self defense techniques, form 7 & 8. Oh and 3 of the first set of sets. For me, I want to learn more. I'm quite motivated to learn more. I really would like to make it to Baltimore to learn maybe some of the fillers. To be honest I can't really answer why they were omitted but you won't find anyone more willing to learn anything than me. To me it's more about learning the in depth material. The principles in kenpo; regardless of it I'm missing some things here and there.

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    Default Re: Deletion of EPAK Material

    Quote Originally Posted by gixxershane
    you dont have checking the storm???

    No, I have never been taught that technique. If some one would post the movements I will print them and try to incorporate them into my training. I was looking over the techs I will be learning in phase two of my training and didn’t see that tech listed. But I will be learning two more “Storm techs” (Clipping and Returning). Our school has a revolving curriculum long story, but this system seems to work well for me.
    A black belt covers 2" of your butt. Covering the rest is soley up to you

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    Default Re: Deletion of EPAK Material

    Everything's in the archieves here on Kenpotalk.

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    Default Re: Deletion of EPAK Material

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook
    Ok - from another post.....

    The technique "Twist of Fate" is yet another that someone is saying should go.

    I have to wonder if the people saying this were taught the techniques correctly. Sorry, I know that is going to upset some people, but yikes....
    Yeah Jamie, you are the only one who was taught how to do them correctly. (no offense) I tested for my 3rd brown under Ernie George, my 2nd and 1st under Gilbert Velez, and my 1st Black under Paul Mills (all while in the IKKA). I have pretty good knowledge of EPAK techniques, sets and forms.

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    Default Re: Deletion of EPAK Material

    Quote Originally Posted by Roadrunner
    Yeah Jamie, you are the only one who was taught how to do them correctly. (no offense) I tested for my 3rd brown under Ernie George, my 2nd and 1st under Gilbert Velez, and my 1st Black under Paul Mills (all while in the IKKA). I have pretty good knowledge of EPAK techniques, sets and forms.
    After reading Jamie's comment I will agree with him those that usually complain about a technique not working have not been taught it correctly or have forgotten how to do it correctly.

    As for Roadrunner's comment about Jamie being the only one that was taught them correctly, a smilie and no offense not not make a rude comment any less rude.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Deletion of EPAK Material

    At this point, I still don't know enough about the system to know which parts could be potentiall for being left out ... so, it all needs to stay.

    And, of course, every school teaches the material via different application ... at my school, Checking the Storm is a yellow belt technique, and learned long before five swords. Because this is the way I have learned, it is difficult to understand how a student can know how to, and understand what is going on in the more complicated technique without having been exposed to, worked on, and begun to understand the less complicated technique.

    What I am learning, more and more each day, is that the American Kenpo system is put together as it is for a reason. And to discern those reasons requires more than just knowing how to execute the motion. Surely, you need to execute the motion well, but there is more to it than that. Mr. Parker constructed the 'Web of Knowledge' as one tool to assist in grasping the contstruction of the system. I'm sure there are others.

    Maybe, in another 5 or 6 or 7 years, I will have enough knowledge to have a reasoned decision about leaving material out of the system. I think I have 8 more base techniques, all the extentions, and forms 5 and 6 before I can begin such contemplation.

    Mike

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    Default Re: Deletion of EPAK Material

    Quote Originally Posted by lady_kaur
    I'm not sure if I totally understand the purpose of some of the long techniques and extensions. By that I mean, I don't know how memorizing a 27 step technique will really help me on the street.

    Finger set - I'm not feeling it.

    Thats just my own reaction.
    I agree with what you said for the most part. Finger Set, I didn't really like at first. But, after learning it, I found that I could insert finger slices and whips into most any tech that attacked the face.

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    Default Re: Deletion of EPAK Material

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad
    I like everything in the system. I am wondering if the students shouldn't be creating their own extensions instead of using the prescribed ones though.
    That's pretty much my point of view. I think encouraging the student to use their "gray matter" and formulate and test out their own ideas fosters their creativity and helps them understand the principles more clearly. It also helps them to tailor the principles to themselves and their own specific body type taking into consideration certain variables like physical strength, height, or other anatomical/physiological differences.

    The concept of "tailoring" and the application of principles is one of the major attributes that drew me to Kenpo. I always doubted other arts that insisted the student do everything in an exact, strict, and conformist manner. The same "technique" will never be applied exactly the same way by two different individuals....there's too many variables.

    I think it's just natural for people to want to classify things and put them into neat little boxes. We like to know where we stand in relationship to our envirnoment and we do that by assigning set standards and attributes in order for comparison. That way, we know "how we measure up."

    That being said, I don't think the number of techniques, extensions, and forms that are taught is AS important teaching the principles behind it all and having at least one technique and form that demonstrates these principles. If a student knows how to apply the principles, they can formulate as many techniques and forms as they want. It's up to the instructor to foster that creativity and identify any "gaps" in a students training.

    Personally, at this point I don't feel 100% qualified to make the decision on what should or should not be thrown out. But, I think if you've got the time into the art, and the rank (previously given by a reputable instructor/organization) then you should be able to teach how they like.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Deletion of EPAK Material

    Quote Originally Posted by lady_kaur
    I'm not sure if I totally understand the purpose of some of the long techniques and extensions. By that I mean, I don't know how memorizing a 27 step technique will really help me on the street.
    The extensions, while offering what-if scenarios should something in the base techniques not go as expected, are also techniques onto themselves and should really be treated as such.
    I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me.
    (Phillipians 4:13)


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    Default Re: Deletion of EPAK Material

    Quote Originally Posted by 2004hemi
    The two “storm” techs that I have been taught so far (Obstructing and Defying) I like them, but I can see how Five Swords could take the place of one. (Only flaw I see in that would be no way to remove the club).
    What about Checking the Storm? It is one of EPAK's Yellow Belt techniques.
    I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me.
    (Phillipians 4:13)


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    Default Re: Deletion of EPAK Material

    Quote Originally Posted by jfarnsworth
    The curriculum I've been apart of has deleted the second set of sets, 4 of the self defense techniques, form 7 & 8. Oh and 3 of the first set of sets. For me, I want to learn more. I'm quite motivated to learn more. I really would like to make it to Baltimore to learn maybe some of the fillers. To be honest I can't really answer why they were omitted but you won't find anyone more willing to learn anything than me. To me it's more about learning the in depth material. The principles in kenpo; regardless of it I'm missing some things here and there.
    The second set of all of the sets get a lot more in-depth than the first of them so I can't fathom why they were omitted unless your instructor doesn't know them or like them. Form 7 & 8 are required weapons forms, and it is odd that specifically 4 techniques were deleted. I am just being honest.

    In any case, if there is anything you have a passion to learn, come see me in Baltimore and I will teach it to you.
    I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me.
    (Phillipians 4:13)


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    Default Re: Deletion of EPAK Material

    Quote Originally Posted by Roadrunner
    Yeah Jamie, you are the only one who was taught how to do them correctly. (no offense)
    I didn't say that.

    But with all due respect, Twist of Fate is an awesome technique, and provides an even-if scenario off Parting Wings, so its deletion from the system is ludicrous in my opinion.
    I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me.
    (Phillipians 4:13)


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    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook
    In any case, if there is anything you have a passion to learn, come see me in Baltimore and I will teach it to you.
    That's quite generous of you. If I can make it I'll certainly get with you. Even if it's only in conversation. I just had issues with our van at this moment. It appears as though it's going to be costly to get it fixed to run properly. This couldn't have come at any worse time. There are a couple of individuals that were thinking about going as well. Neither showed on thursday so I will call them and see if they are truely going to go. This way my cost will be cut down to go.

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