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Thread: Why?

  1. #1
    Alleydog is offline
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    Default Why?

    Do kenpoist want to:

    • worship Mr. Parker. (the whole cult thing.)
    • Traditionalized his and their kenpo

    Honor him for what he gave us donít worship him. He wouldnít have wanted it anyway.
    I kills me when I see many in EPAK doing just that by rationalizing the system.
    Mr. Parker himself wanted this system to be in a constant state of refinement.
    He laid down the ground work to create, refine, and evolve. Mr. Parker gave us something greater than a bunch of techniques, basic, forms, and principles. He gave us a vehicle to explore and expand on this system of kenpo. And by expand I mean mentally. See it isnít the number of techniques your studying itís the quality of the system as a whole. A living system that needs to change. Yep, that is a lot thought and work but it is worth it to keep kenpo pushing the envelope.
    What if Parker shared your views? We would be doing Chowís kenpo.
    Look no offence but if you what to do traditional kenpo do it. I chose the path I learned from Mr. Parker and Mr. Mills.

    Yours in Kenpo,

    Mike Guercio
    AKKI Westminster, MD

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    Default Re: Why?

    Evolving when needed is expected and good, evolving or more often throwing out something one instructor may think is usueless is robbing students of a valuable opportunity to learn. Too often instructors find something they don't like and remove it form the system thus robbing their students of the opportunity they themsleves had. It doesn't matter how much you add to the system, everytime you take something away you are stealing from future generations.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Why?

    I think the focus on "techniques" and/or the number of how many are taught clouds the issue. When Chuck Sullivan first studied with Ed Parker there were only 34 techniques in the system. Today, different schools teach different numbers of techniques along with diversified versions of established main-stay techniques like Delayed Sword for instance.

    I have always held that Kenpo is about the principles and science, the effectiveness and practicality of the art. Hypothetically speaking, I could sit down and come up with 1000's of techniques all sound in principle and effeciency. What's the point??

    I think the focus should be on wheather or not a school, organization, or whatever teaches the principles that the techniques of Kenpo are based on. Eventually, every student should come into their own and what they execute in the street will be of their own "design" anyway. Know what I mean?

    IMHO.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Ė Charles A. Beard

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    Alleydog is offline
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    Default Re: Why?

    Well, remeber Parker also took away, removed techs., removed sets and changed and removed forms.
    Do you think that Tracy Kenpo is better because it has more?
    And be honest. Either way that is up to you.

    I feel it ainít about the volume, it is the principles. If the students movement quality and knowledge can be expand with efficiency then again why not change.

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    Default Re: Why?

    The techniques that were originally written out (roughly 600) were things like upward block, reverse punch or low block, front kick. They were very simplistic and effective in a limited capacity. They were no where near the level of what was developed later. The forms Parker temporarily put into the system like Tiger & Crane, Tam Tui etc... where later removed for forms that were created to promote the principles and concepts that Parker envisioned for the art.

    I love to see things added to the art to help it grow and expand, what I hate to see is when someone takes something out because they can not see a use for it, When that happens they rob someone of an opportunity to learn something that they themselves learned. The reason some of these guys are so good is because of the minor lessons they learned in material that has been removed, those minor lessons often support major lessons and principles.

    As for what is better that all boils down to the individual and what they are looking for. Personally I prefer EPAK because of the Equation formula.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Why?

    Wow. This is going to be a "hot topic". I have my opinions, but I'm celebtating al-Zarqawi's death. I'll be back.

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    Default Re: Why?

    Shouldn't all Kenpoist utilize and teach the equation formula? That's one of the first principles I ever learned.

    Let's talk about the equation forumla and it's relationship to techniques. If properly used, the equeation formula can be used to turn one solid technique into several. That being said; why should the number of techniuqes contiained in any one school's syllabus define "how" kenpo they are? If the equation formula is part of that syllabus along with some very good techniques that encompass other kenpo principles why should they be viewed as inferior or not being "kenpo" in some way?

    In this case I don't think 'more' is necessarily better. In regards to kenpo I feel that quality is more important than quantity. I feel that if a student really knows one very good defense against a right punch (know the why's, what's, and how's behind the entire technique) they will be more efficient than a student that is familiar with three defenses against a right punch but does not fully understand why the end result of their efforts is the way it is.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Ė Charles A. Beard

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    Roadrunner is offline
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    Default Re: Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alleydog
    Do kenpoist want to:

    • worship Mr. Parker. (the whole cult thing.)
    • Traditionalized his and their kenpo

    Honor him for what he gave us donít worship him. He wouldnít have wanted it anyway.
    I kills me when I see many in EPAK doing just that by rationalizing the system.
    Mr. Parker himself wanted this system to be in a constant state of refinement.
    He laid down the ground work to create, refine, and evolve. Mr. Parker gave us something greater than a bunch of techniques, basic, forms, and principles. He gave us a vehicle to explore and expand on this system of kenpo. And by expand I mean mentally. See it isnít the number of techniques your studying itís the quality of the system as a whole. A living system that needs to change. Yep, that is a lot thought and work but it is worth it to keep kenpo pushing the envelope.
    What if Parker shared your views? We would be doing Chowís kenpo.
    Look no offence but if you what to do traditional kenpo do it. I chose the path I learned from Mr. Parker and Mr. Mills.

    Yours in Kenpo,

    Mike Guercio
    AKKI Westminster, MD
    Good Post Mike. I agree.

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    Default Re: Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad
    what I hate to see is when someone takes something out because they can not see a use for it
    I agree!

    And may I add - usually the reason for the deletion is because he/she didn't learn the technique correctly in the first place, and hence, couldn't understand its use to make it work.
    I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me.
    (Phillipians 4:13)


  10. #10
    pete is offline
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    Default Re: Why?

    this may be ground for some good conversation, but i like to talk in specifics rather than broad generalities. i think it makes things easier to understand, especially in writing on a forum... so here goes:

    first, i think when we say 'remove' something from the system, most mean 'remove' it as a testing requirement but not throw it out completely and never to do again. rob brought up 'tiger crane', which was removed from the system but many kenpoists continue to learn, practice and teach it. 2-man set being another.

    what... specifically... would you remove from the epak system and why.

    i've heard examples from the even the staunchest of epak evangelists, so everyone must have one. don't be shy... even if you'd continue to use it conceptually or as additional material, or work off a drill, but what is one thing you'd remove as a requirement from epak.

    ok... i'll go first:

    leap from danger! the thought of me being able to defend myself after a shoulder roll is ludicrous. the thought of me doing a shoulder roll gracefully enough not to injure myself on the street is equally ridiculous.

    would i teach shoulder rolls and use them from controlled takedowns, yes.
    on mats, yes.

    your turn...

    pete

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    Alleydog is offline
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    Default Re: Why?


    OK. Leap from danger, its gone! That would be on my list.
    But I would rather not get specific because it would be too much writing. I hate to write, sorry.
    Plus, my point is that as kenpoist from the Parker lineage we should not be afraid to change our kenpo and really it must change to keep it evolving. That, in my opinion, is what Mr. Parker wanted us to do. His biggest fear was that his students would traditionalize his kenpo.

    It was also Mr. Parker who said that he would rather have a hand full of techniques that he could fight with then a bunch that fought him.

    Celtic Crippler was it right, it is the equation formula and I think it can be applied to the whole system.

    As far as techniques that Mr. Parker had gotten rid of, how about Intellectual departure, Spreading branches and others I just canít remember right now. These techniques are gone but the movements and principles that they contained are still there.
    So, if you combine some techniques to answer more that one specific attack but have all the movements and principles contained in the smaller number of techniques would this give the student more training time.
    Add some good principles laden, universal drills that condition the students spinal reflex arc and help in neuromuscular facilitation (i.e. muscle memory) and get rid of sets like the coordination set. So why not use the equation to streamline the system?

    Yours in Kenpo,

    Mike Guercio
    AKKI Westminster, MD

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    Default Re: Why?

    I love Leap from Danger, especially with the extension, so let's keep it in.

    On a side, I practice it all the time outside on the cement (no kidding).
    I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me.
    (Phillipians 4:13)


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    Default Re: Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alleydog

    get rid of sets like the coordination set. So why not use the equation to streamline the system?


    Yours in Kenpo,

    Mike Guercio
    AKKI Westminster, MD
    The Coordination Set teaches students how to execute two simultaneous attacks, how to switch from a neutral to a forward bow while attacking, how to turn a defensive maneuver into an offensive counter, how to create as well as close distance, and how to hit accurately to specific targets utilizing both the hands and the feet.

    Do this set over and over, and your basics will be AWESOME. Besides it's a fun set....so.....Coordination Set stays.


    Jamie Seabrook

    P.S. We are still buddies Mike, LOL.
    I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me.
    (Phillipians 4:13)


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    Default Re: Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook
    The Coordination Set teaches students how to execute two simultaneous attacks, how to switch from a neutral to a forward bow while attacking, how to turn a defensive maneuver into an offensive counter, how to create as well as close distance, and how to hit accurately to specific targets utilizing both the hands and the feet.

    .
    Shouldn't we be learning all of that in our tech's and forms?

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    Default Re: Why?

    Personally, I would dump or re-write all of the Storm techniques. Why? We used to train with semi-auto BB guns, with the challenge to "pop off a round if you can, as you can". After many of us picking BB's out of our cheeks, I think the Storm techs need some serious re-tooling. Try it with AirSof guns, and see what happens. Be honest; don't buy your own BS or work with a younger uke who worships you and won't actually the opportunity to cap yo' ass as they can.

    Controlling the weapon should be the first and foremost goal, followed by killing the computer. Lotsa fancy stuff in the gun techs that's a real danger to not only self, but any by-standers. YOU may not get shot (in some of them), but the folks around you will
    Clear mind, clear movement. Mastery of the Arts is mastery over the Self. That in this moment, this motion, the thoughts, memories, impulses and passions that cloud the mind must yield to the clarity of purpose, and purity of motion.

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    Roadrunner is offline
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    Default Re: Why?

    Twist of Fate is gone for me.

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    pete is offline
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    Default Re: Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roadrunner
    Twist of Fate is gone for me
    why?

  18. #18
    Alleydog is offline
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    Default Re: Why?

    Jamie,

    One of my problems with coordination set is that the student is bring their hands to their hip in a traditional back elbow/chambered fashion. I donít want this as a internalized action for my students to slip into it in a self-defense situation.

    All of the movements are in various techniques already. And, if I want to break the simultaneous striking down for the student to work on we do that or have them hit the pads.

    All of the moves in coordination set the student has, except maybe the simultaneous striking, at yellow belt level.

    Life is short and if the student tryís to defend on the street with the learned moves of coordination set instead of a good old pad drills their life could be real short.

    Yours in Kenpo,

    Mike Guercio
    AKKI Westminster, MD

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    Roadrunner is offline
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    Default Re: Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by pete
    why?
    The AKKI no longer has it in their curriculum, which is ok by me. It was never a technique I would use on the street, not that I couldn't make it work. Most of the time though, I found it was very difficult to do on someone that was uncooperative or struggling. To me, it was more of an ideal phase technique. That's my .02

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    Default Re: Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikael151
    Shouldn't we be learning all of that in our tech's and forms?
    You are correct that the forms and sets often have overlap, but both provide a different methodology for learning Kenpo's basic fundamentals.
    The sets in American Kenpo are designed to work on specific aspects of basics that may not be fully covered in the forms, and help isolate one's basics to make them better.

    Also, Ed Parker put the sets into the curriculum for a reason. Far be it for us as students and instructors of Kenpo to delete them.
    I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me.
    (Phillipians 4:13)


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