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Thread: How will the evolution be manifest?

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    Default How will the evolution be manifest?

    What are your opinions on how American Kenpo has evolved? Does it evolve as a whole, or does it evolve into something new depending on which school or teacher is adding to it?

    Should we or should we not preserve the base that we were given and build upon it? And how do we do that exactly? Do we grow the system and add more techniques and forms? Do we change the techniques that we have and modify the forms? I'm just curious what your opinions are on how the evolution will be manifest? Or is it manifest already in the different variations we see from different schools of thought?

    I'm not suggesting it has to be black and white. Rather, just curious on what people's perspective of how it evloves is.

    Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler
    In all fairness the art was meant to change and evolve...but one should not forsake the basics or compromise principles in the process. IMHO =)


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    Default Re: How will the evolution be manifest?

    The system does need to evolve, but the forms should not change. Neither should the techniques, but somehow the techniques should be modified for the modern day.
    "To hear is to doubt. To see is to be deceived. But to feel is to believe." -- SGM Ed Parker

    "Sic vis pacem parabellum - If you want peace, prepare for war." -- "The Punisher"


    "Praying Mantis, very good. . . For catching bugs." --Jackie Chan

    "A horse stance is great for taking a dump" --Jet Li

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    Default Re: How will the evolution be manifest?

    Our philosophy is to keep the base and add and/or adapt. Kenpo has to evolve to fit the times. Our society(s) constantly change. Peoples values change. The political climate changes. Everything changes.

    But will we change for the better?


    Some examples of things today that should affect your training:

    In the U.S. gang activity is on the rise. If you live in a state with a high Latino population you have to consider the existance of MS-13. A very violent and deadly Latino street gang. They target police officers so I doubt they would have a problem attacking a civilian. They also are notorious for using machete's. So... you may want to alter your training to focus more on multiple attackers and knife/club defenses.

    The UFC is quite popular now. As a result many people took up grappling. Even people that did not, but just watch the shows on Spike TV, are influenced by it. In the past you may have been more likely to be attacked with a punch, but today you must consider the UFC influence. Even people with no official training may instead try and take you down or "shoot" for your legs. So, you made need to focus more on defending those types of attacks.

    The principles initially set forth by SGM Parker are sound. Just as they were before. As he adapted them to conform with the environment and atmosphere of his time, so must we in order to remain effective.

    I like to draw the following comparison for students when they ask what separates Kenpo from more traditional MA. You ever wonder why MA like TKD execute so many high kicks and flying kicks? Think about it. If you were a peasent farmer faced with being attacked by a warrior on horseback, you would need to get the fellow off the horse before being able to proceed with the task of defending yourself. Right? Well, there ya go. They simply have not evolved or changed anything since their initial conception. That's why they're "traditional." What are the chances that you would be attacked by a warrior on horseback today? Not very likely is it? What about the chances that some street thug or gang members attack you or pull a gun on you? More so than the former. See where I'm going with this?

    That's what I mean by evolving, yet staying true to the principles and basics. They are sound. It is simply the application that changes.

    IMHO =)
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: How will the evolution be manifest?

    Parker purposely didn't name a successor. I think the merit of that decision can be debated. On the one hand, it kept kenpo innovative and constantly evolving, but it also created a big conglomeration of offshoots with not a lot of consistency in regards to standards and quality.

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    Default Re: How will the evolution be manifest?

    Quote Originally Posted by parkerkarate
    the forms should not change. Neither should the techniques, but somehow the techniques should be modified for the modern day.
    Isn't that what the equation formula is for?
    I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me.
    (Phillipians 4:13)


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    Default Re: How will the evolution be manifest?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook
    Isn't that what the equation formula is for?
    Excellent Point sir!

    But, what if your "newer" version isn't readily accepted by the status quo? Does that make it "wrong" some how. Shouldn't a technique be judged on the merits of effectiveness and efficiency?
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: How will the evolution be manifest?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook
    Isn't that what the equation formula is for?
    This is why you are a 6th and I am onlly a 3rd. I do not know as much as you.
    "To hear is to doubt. To see is to be deceived. But to feel is to believe." -- SGM Ed Parker

    "Sic vis pacem parabellum - If you want peace, prepare for war." -- "The Punisher"


    "Praying Mantis, very good. . . For catching bugs." --Jackie Chan

    "A horse stance is great for taking a dump" --Jet Li

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    Default Re: How will the evolution be manifest?

    I would love to see some DVD's or coursework come out with someone's contribution on evolving the art. I have seen some Mike Lambert footage and I feel like I'm seeing it there. It's exciting. I say that because I would love to be able to incorporate fresh perspective into my training and teaching and would love to see as a whole, our kenpo family prospering from how others are evolving the system.
    -Camey

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    Default Re: How will the evolution be manifest?

    Quote Originally Posted by cameypsaromatis
    I would love to see some DVD's or coursework come out with someone's contribution on evolving the art. I have seen some Mike Lambert footage and I feel like I'm seeing it there. It's exciting. I say that because I would love to be able to incorporate fresh perspective into my training and teaching and would love to see as a whole, our kenpo family prospering from how others are evolving the system.
    You and me both.

    Unfortunatley, some folks ego's have become impenetrable walls surrounding their minds and they refuse to even entertain the thought that somebody else may have discovered something new or improved upon the "established" way of doing something.

    Growth does not occur without change. Therefore, one must change in order to grow. No? Anyway, that's just my 0.02.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: How will the evolution be manifest?

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler
    Growth does not occur without change. Therefore, one must change in order to grow.
    Well put
    "To hear is to doubt. To see is to be deceived. But to feel is to believe." -- SGM Ed Parker

    "Sic vis pacem parabellum - If you want peace, prepare for war." -- "The Punisher"


    "Praying Mantis, very good. . . For catching bugs." --Jackie Chan

    "A horse stance is great for taking a dump" --Jet Li

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    Default Re: How will the evolution be manifest?

    Quote Originally Posted by cameypsaromatis
    I would love to see some DVD's or coursework come out with someone's contribution on evolving the art. I have seen some Mike Lambert footage and I feel like I'm seeing it there. It's exciting. I say that because I would love to be able to incorporate fresh perspective into my training and teaching and would love to see as a whole, our kenpo family prospering from how others are evolving the system.
    Though only a small glimpse of his contribution to Kenpo and the martial arts in general, I feel Mr. Zach Whitson has released some great DVD's featuring his Kenpo Counterpoint concepts that have evolved my Kenpo experience.

    It has triggered me and my students to consider countering almost instantly and accelerate our ability to graft from technique to technique.

    I highly recommend checking his material out!

    Respectfully,
    Joshua Ryer
    Ryer Martial Arts Academy
    5440 Centre Avenue
    Pittsburgh, PA 15232
    (412) 621-KICK
    www.RyerAcademy.com

    The Highest Quality Martial Arts

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    Default Re: How will the evolution be manifest?

    Well Camey(if I may), all the answers above are good ones. I'll not go into detail, but always remember that change brings resentment, even though its for the common good at times. Zach Whitson was mentioned, ask him about the "outrage" he encountered when he decided to bring out his "Countepoint" videos. How dare he! which is another way of saying lets do the status quo awhile longer so I don't have to train.
    But, if you wish to see 'change' it's better to call it 'Progress' and therby make it palatable for all, and good luck on that. Ed Parker 'changed' the system, the thinking of combat for the barehanded, the science of war and took a lot of heat for it, I know I was one of those Kenpo Slappers in the 60's that was never taken seriously. Now many of the critics are training in our art, the rest have nothing to hold to so they quit or began their own history.
    Evolution happens organically and that is how it will manifest itself. There is nothing one can do but enter into a bond with it and seek to improve that was once thought "unimprovable" (is that a word?). Again these boards have a bit of that which shows thought and reason. But the caveat is that you must feel the change, not make it a hypothesis solely for that is a self tease making you impervious to the reality of true combat.
    That's enough, You get it from here...good night
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    Default Re: How will the evolution be manifest?

    As always Sigung your words hold tomes of wisdom.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: How will the evolution be manifest?

    Change for the sake of change is rot. I have heard Mr. Parker say, "These techniques are merely ideas, they are not hard and fast rules." I have had my own teacher reiterate, as has Sigung, the very same thing. Yes, the techniques are designed to teach principles, concepts, and theories. More importantly, they are designed to teach you the keys. Once you know and understand the keys, you can adapt to nearly any situation. As I like to tell my students, each technique is listed somewhere in the web of knowledge. There are eight categories in the WOK, so essentially, we are learning 155 variations on 8 themes. Once you begin to comprehend that, and see how it fits together, you can start making it your own. Then, regardless of situation, you are fit to respond. So what needs to be changed?
    Just because you do something one way, does not mean that everyone else does it that way, or that it is even the correct way.

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    Default Re: How will the evolution be manifest?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seig
    So what needs to be changed?
    Peoples minds.

    The ones that think there is nothing more than what existed at the time of SGM Parkers death. Even SGM Parker admitted there was much more to learn:

    From Ed Parker Jr./Preface in Encyclopedia of Kenpo
    "..you know son, after all the years i've spent working with Kenpo, I finally realize that what I know is nothing compared to what there is to learn."
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: How will the evolution be manifest?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seig
    Change for the sake of change is rot. I have heard Mr. Parker say, "These techniques are merely ideas, they are not hard and fast rules." I have had my own teacher reiterate, as has Sigung, the very same thing. Yes, the techniques are designed to teach principles, concepts, and theories. More importantly, they are designed to teach you the keys. Once you know and understand the keys, you can adapt to nearly any situation. As I like to tell my students, each technique is listed somewhere in the web of knowledge. There are eight categories in the WOK, so essentially, we are learning 155 variations on 8 themes. Once you begin to comprehend that, and see how it fits together, you can start making it your own. Then, regardless of situation, you are fit to respond. So what needs to be changed?
    Well put Seig!
    I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me.
    (Phillipians 4:13)


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    Default Re: How will the evolution be manifest?

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler
    Peoples minds.

    The ones that think there is nothing more than what existed at the time of SGM Parkers death. Even SGM Parker admitted there was much more to learn:

    From Ed Parker Jr./Preface in Encyclopedia of Kenpo
    "..you know son, after all the years i've spent working with Kenpo, I finally realize that what I know is nothing compared to what there is to learn."
    Great quote CC.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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