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Thread: Phases of Motion

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    Default Phases of Motion

    Three Phases of Motion:

    *solid- embrionic, learning to move effectively. Cock then block. Block then strike. Full range of motion.A solid keeps its shape regardless of its environment.

    *liquid- adjusts to the shape of and is channeled by its environment. Flows around and through. Wears away obstacles. Working from point of origin to simultaneously defend and attack on multiple levels. Works off his action and reaction.

    *gasseous- expands to completely fill its environment and all viods. Smothers and completely dominates the opponent. Completely controls the environment (the opponents actions).


    What is your understanding of this concept? How do you see it applied in Kenpo? Would you define the phases differently?

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    Default Re: Phases of Motion

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan
    Three Phases of Motion:

    embrionic, learning to move effectively. Cock then block. Block then strike. Full range of motion.A solid keeps its shape regardless of its environment.
    Lets start here. This is the most misunderstood and unfortunately, it encompasses "basics." Does anyone really understand basics and how to create a solid structure? It doesn't exist in the commercial system that I've seen.
    Would you define the phases differently?
    I don't teach "motion." That is an abstract. I do however as a biomechanists, teach how to "move," anatomically correctly.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

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    Default Re: Phases of Motion

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc
    Lets start here. This is the most misunderstood and unfortunately, it encompasses "basics." Does anyone really understand basics and how to create a solid structure? It doesn't exist in the commercial system that I've seen.

    I don't teach "motion." That is an abstract. I do however as a biomechanists, teach how to "move," anatomically correctly.
    You speak of "internal" principles, no? Movement originating at the core, or tantien- starting with the small muscles of the lower back? Movement in harmony with the upper and lower body? Musculo-skeletal allignment? Could you elaborate? I'd be interested in your views on these, or any other, ideas of movement.

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    Default Re: Phases of Motion

    I see it as threephases. You have the robotic phase of taking it step by step, than the fluent phase of puting things together other than one, two , three. It is more like one and two and.... Than the last phase is the explosive phase, you put everything together, understand everything and well just explode when doing techiniques.

    That is how I see it but I could be wrong. When all else fails I will always go back to Mr. Parkers priciples.
    "To hear is to doubt. To see is to be deceived. But to feel is to believe." -- SGM Ed Parker

    "Sic vis pacem parabellum - If you want peace, prepare for war." -- "The Punisher"


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    Default Re: Phases of Motion

    I agree, there are different phases in motion starting with solid-mechanical and basic, to liquid-flowing and smooth, to gasseous-exploding movement to creat force for effective force, which they are not so much as different times but at different phases in your tech. you are performing. Such as your mechanical is when you perform your solid block and your flowing or liquid and exploding or gasseous is your smooth and forcful movements when you are striking your opponent.
    This is the theory that my first instructor Mr. Clark explaned to me.

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    Default Re: Phases of Motion

    Quote Originally Posted by parkerkarate
    I see it as threephases. You have the robotic phase of taking it step by step, than the fluent phase of puting things together other than one, two , three. It is more like one and two and.... Than the last phase is the explosive phase, you put everything together, understand everything and well just explode when doing techiniques.
    OK. You are relating the analogy more to the phases of learning a technique. It can be viewed that way, I suppose. But you only get to the liquid phase of motion that way. It is in the liquid phase that you explode into your opponent and destroy him- the overwhelming force of the flood. It is where most of us are. Me included- no gass yet.

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    Default Re: Phases of Motion

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpo89
    I agree, there are different phases in motion starting with solid-mechanical and basic, to liquid-flowing and smooth, to gasseous-exploding movement to creat force for effective force, which they are not so much as different times but at different phases in your tech. you are performing. Such as your mechanical is when you perform your solid block and your flowing or liquid and exploding or gasseous is your smooth and forcful movements when you are striking your opponent.
    This is the theory that my first instructor Mr. Clark explaned to me.
    You view it as a function of timeing and rhythm? They are certainly part of the picture.

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    Default Re: Phases of Motion

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan
    OK. You are relating the analogy more to the phases of learning a technique. It can be viewed that way, I suppose. But you only get to the liquid phase of motion that way. It is in the liquid phase that you explode into your opponent and destroy him- the overwhelming force of the flood. It is where most of us are. Me included- no gass yet.
    So what you are saying is that you don't have gas?

    I'm sorry.. how could I possibly pass that up....

    wait.. Passing gas... ROFLMAO!!!!!!

    ohh.. ohh.. wow.. *wiping away the tears*hehehehe giggle giggle.. tear gas!!!!!!BWAAA HAHA AH AHAAHHA AHAHA AHA AH


    ok ok ok .i'm done... I'm sorry... hhehehehee

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    Default Re: Phases of Motion

    ok. seriously..

    You are mostly speaking of trasition of technique from novice through master and how that movement evolves from static to flow to encompasing...


    What about in ideals and philosopy?

    Solid techniques are the basis of the hammering block. Force to stop force.

    liquid techniques to redirect such as the waiters hand in repeating mace or even as basic as teh ideal upward block?

    gasious techniques focusing on total evasion such as... damn.. whats the second overhead club technique.. not obstrucitng the storm... not calming... club comes in you step off to 3 in a left 45 cat evading the club...

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    Default Re: Phases of Motion

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBunny
    So what you are saying is that you don't have gas?
    I'm sorry.. how could I possibly pass that up....
    wait.. Passing gas... ROFLMAO!!!!!!
    ohh.. ohh.. wow.. *wiping away the tears*hehehehe giggle giggle.. tear gas!!!!!!BWAAA HAHA AH AHAAHHA AHAHA AHA AH
    ok ok ok .i'm done... I'm sorry... hhehehehee
    *Laughing, in spite of myself*

    Now, this post is a perfect example of what I understand the gasseous phase to be about. With one line, I have led the Wabbit in a downward spiral to his doom- reducing him to a quivering mass on the floor with just three words: "no gass yet." Very little effort on my part, and he's "done." And he came to me, I just had to be there to take advantage of his action. Eau, 'tis a beautiful thing.

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    Default Re: Phases of Motion

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBunny
    gasious techniques focusing on total evasion such as... damn.. whats the second overhead club technique.. not obstrucitng the storm... not calming... club comes in you step off to 3 in a left 45 cat evading the club...
    Evading the Storm? Only if you wanted him there at that instant.

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    Default Re: Phases of Motion

    evading... that sounds right... Orange belt technique?

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    Default Re: Phases of Motion

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBunny
    You are mostly speaking of trasition of technique from novice through master and how that movement evolves from static to flow to encompasing...
    Yes. But it is not, as I understand it, about techniques. It is about applying technique. It is about going from dealing with his attack, to useing his attack against him, to helping him destroy himself with his own attack.

    What about in ideals and philosopy?
    Good question. To me, learning Kenpo is partly learning a new way to think. This analogy could be used in interpersonal relations.

    There are really no limmits, and no wrong answers or applications. I've heard several different versions of this analogy, and am interested in others views.
    Last edited by thedan; 01-24-2006 at 04:21 PM.

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    Default Re: Phases of Motion

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBunny
    evading... that sounds right... Orange belt technique?
    Yup. First is Checking, then Evading. There was a recent discussion on Mr. Seabrooks hosted forum about these two techniques.
    Last edited by thedan; 01-24-2006 at 04:14 PM.

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    Default Re: Phases of Motion

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan
    You view it as a function of timeing and rhythm? They are certainly part of the picture.
    Rythm is a part of timing.
    Sean

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    Default Re: Phases of Motion

    Tyming and rythem are deffinitely part of the picture.
    "To hear is to doubt. To see is to be deceived. But to feel is to believe." -- SGM Ed Parker

    "Sic vis pacem parabellum - If you want peace, prepare for war." -- "The Punisher"


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    Default Re: Phases of Motion

    Quote Originally Posted by parkerkarate
    Tyming and rythem are deffinitely part of the picture.
    So is kicking and striking with the feet, punching and striking with the fist, headbutts and striking with the forehead, thinking and cognitive resolutions. Rythm mearly refers to timing.
    Sean

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    Default Re: Phases of Motion

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoChanger
    Rythm is a part of timing.
    Sean
    Thanks for the dorrection.

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    Default Re: Phases of Motion

    Dr. Chapel,

    I just went and read this thread:

    Sub-Level 4 Kenpo Concepts

    Impressive. Sounds like the things I asked about here, and a whole lot more. Also, sounds like you train from the first to enter the gasseous phase, as I understand its meaning. You bring him to you (where you want him) with every strike or move.

    You talked here about basics being essential for gasseous movement. In the thread shown above, you talked about indexing movements as part of those basics. Indexing allows the development of power, structurally alligns the body, and engages the apropriate muscle groups, giving effective strength to your movement. Also helps with timeing, allowing the opponent to react to your strike or move. Oversimplified, but correct?

    I think these are in "Motion Kenpo", but not developed to the extent you do in SL-4. You correctly say in the linked post that these are not secrets. To the Chinese, the word we interpret as secrets just means things that you havn't discovered yet. How would I go about discovering these in my Kenpo?

    Have you put out any educational material for general use? I understand that much or most of what you teach probably requires hands on instruction. But just from what I've seen here, there are some good general points that can be incorporated into my practice. I'd like to see more on things like the slap-check and indexing basic moves. I'd also like to get your thoughts on harmony of motion, which I think relates directly to these. Of course, if I'm wrong, I'd like to know that also. I'm just going off what is said here, as I've never had any experience with SL-4 Kenpo.

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    Default Re: Phases of Motion

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan
    Dr. Chapel,

    I just went and read this thread:

    Sub-Level 4 Kenpo Concepts

    Impressive. Sounds like the things I asked about here, and a whole lot more. Also, sounds like you train from the first to enter the gasseous phase, as I understand its meaning. You bring him to you (where you want him) with every strike or move.

    You talked here about basics being essential for gasseous movement. In the thread shown above, you talked about indexing movements as part of those basics. Indexing allows the development of power, structurally alligns the body, and engages the apropriate muscle groups, giving effective strength to your movement. Also helps with timeing, allowing the opponent to react to your strike or move. Oversimplified, but correct?
    Sounds good to me. Very well said.
    I think these are in "Motion Kenpo", but not developed to the extent you do in SL-4.
    Actually only the "idea" is in "motion." It takes a special teacher who has significant study outside of motion to begin the process. If ones only experience is 'motion based commercial kenpo,' than the knowledge is outside the relm of the vehicle and the student/teacher.
    You correctly say in the linked post that these are not secrets. To the Chinese, the word we interpret as secrets just means things that you havn't discovered yet. How would I go about discovering these in my Kenpo?
    You can't. it is an educational process so significant it can only be taught by one who knows to one who doesn't. Very few know, in any style.
    Have you put out any educational material for general use? I understand that much or most of what you teach probably requires hands on instruction. But just from what I've seen here, there are some good general points that can be incorporated into my practice.
    Yes sir, but all of the material I have written and produced are designed to support the hands on training of my students in house and those that travel to see me. As stand alone material it is essentially too complex and contains principles that not only must be taught, but placed in proper context as well.
    I'd like to see more on things like the slap-check and indexing basic moves.
    Even the term "slap-check" in SL-4 is different from the "pak-sao" of the Chinese, and encompasses many mechanisms related to efficient body mechanics and alignments primarily associated in some instances with PNF.
    I'd also like to get your thoughts on harmony of motion, which I think relates directly to these.
    Well sir, I rearely use the term 'motion' except to describe the commercial vehicle of kenpo as Parker did. However, when you recognize and accept the fact that the term 'motion' is "abstract," you understand that placed in the context of the specificity of SL-4 execution, it has no meaning of significance.
    I'm just going off what is said here, as I've never had any experience with SL-4 Kenpo.
    Well maybe one day you will sir. Based on how you digested the information and came to a reasonble conclusion, you're my kind of student. Thank you for a very pleasant exchange sir.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

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