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Thread: 9th Degree demonstrating Short III with neutral bows...

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    Default 9th Degree demonstrating Short III with neutral bows...

    instead of horse stances, except on Crashing Wings in this instance but it is meant to be there as well. This is a new version Mr Rainey is creating.


    Basics, the rest is bullshytery.

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    Default Re: 9th Degree demonstrating Short III with neutral bows...

    It is an interesting concept... I think die hard kenpo fanatics will have trouble with accepting it. Cool stuff, thanks for sharing.
    "The problem is not whether or not you like bad kenpo, the problem is recognizing whether or not your kenpo is bad!"
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    Default Re: 9th Degree demonstrating Short III with neutral bows...

    Best representation I've seen of Short Form 3 in a long time. Stances that you can actually see, and watch the transitions. He must not really be a Kenpo guy.
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    Default Re: 9th Degree demonstrating Short III with neutral bows...

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    Best representation I've seen of Short Form 3 in a long time. Stances that you can actually see, and watch the transitions. He must not really be a Kenpo guy.
    gotta say I don't agree.. there are a number of issues I have with the footwork, but the form itself.. I would .. simply.. why. What is the intention behind the choices made. Example.. twin destruction.. why the second double-punch, what purpose does it server? right after I feel that he has lost the placement of his opponent as his direction change is odd. Crossing talons has lost all control of the initial grab and at the end of it the right leg locking out with the heel on the floor pointing up... i've no idea what that is supposed to be but all I see is a potential broken leg.

    I understand people want to put their stamp on things.. people have different views and ways of doing them.. I am just worried about change for the sake of change without a clear understanding of why we do them.

    bunners
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    Default Re: 9th Degree demonstrating Short III with neutral bows...

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBunny View Post
    gotta say I don't agree.. there are a number of issues I have with the footwork, but the form itself.. I would .. simply.. why. What is the intention behind the choices made. Example.. twin destruction.. why the second double-punch, what purpose does it server? right after I feel that he has lost the placement of his opponent as his direction change is odd. Crossing talons has lost all control of the initial grab and at the end of it the right leg locking out with the heel on the floor pointing up... i've no idea what that is supposed to be but all I see is a potential broken leg.

    I understand people want to put their stamp on things.. people have different views and ways of doing them.. I am just worried about change for the sake of change without a clear understanding of why we do them.

    bunners
    You're just pissed cause there are no rabbit punches. You must understand, in comparison to what most are doing in Kenpo LALA Land this stands out. And also the Form he's doing is Kenpo Form Short Three, and from what I can tell it's a reasonable representation of that form that's head and shoulders above of others that have posted their "no stances" version videos here. Could I "clean" it up a Bit? Sure because that's what teachers do, but all things considered and being relative - I like it. So, I stand by my assessment of "best representation I've seen here."
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    Default Re: 9th Degree demonstrating Short III with neutral bows...

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    You're just pissed cause there are no rabbit punches. You must understand, in comparison to what most are doing in Kenpo LALA Land this stands out. And also the Form he's doing is Kenpo Form Short Three, and from what I can tell it's a reasonable representation of that form that's head and shoulders above of others that have posted their "no stances" version videos here. Could I "clean" it up a Bit? Sure because that's what teachers do, but all things considered and being relative - I like it. So, I stand by my assessment of "best representation I've seen here."

    If we are to look at it as a comparison to other work then sure, he moves with decisive action, consistent footwork, good power etc etc..

    My concern is the technique shown within the form itself and the reason for it. Short 3 is really the first solid collection of techniques strung together in the forms. Sure they start showing up in Long 2 but really short 3 is the first in the system where you have clear specific technique strung together.

    That said, if we are to look at it as a series of techniques then I simply question the choice made within those techniques.
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    Default Re: 9th Degree demonstrating Short III with neutral bows...

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    You're just pissed cause there are no rabbit punches. You must understand, in comparison to what most are doing in Kenpo LALA Land this stands out. And also the Form he's doing is Kenpo Form Short Three, and from what I can tell it's a reasonable representation of that form that's head and shoulders above of others that have posted their "no stances" version videos here. Could I "clean" it up a Bit? Sure because that's what teachers do, but all things considered and being relative - I like it. So, I stand by my assessment of "best representation I've seen here."
    BTW Rabbit punches are, of course.. perfect punches.
    "Do you have any bactine? Some of this blood is mine."

    "Dear Die-ary, today I stuffed some dolls full of dead rats I put in the blender. I'm wondering if, maybe, there really is something wrong with me."

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    Default Re: 9th Degree demonstrating Short III with neutral bows...

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBunny View Post
    If we are to look at it as a comparison to other work then sure, he moves with decisive action, consistent footwork, good power etc etc..

    My concern is the technique shown within the form itself and the reason for it. Short 3 is really the first solid collection of techniques strung together in the forms. Sure they start showing up in Long 2 but really short 3 is the first in the system where you have clear specific technique strung together.

    That said, if we are to look at it as a series of techniques then I simply question the choice made within those techniques.
    Once again good observations. Short Form 3 was the first full original form out of the Chinese Kenpo era. What is/was known as Short One and Short Two were originally practiced as a single form before the idea of Long and Short took root. Cut in half and renamed into now 2 forms, and followed by the creation of the Long versions of each. Short Three was the first and last original form of the Chinese Kenpo era that had meanings tied to applications of the self-defense techniques as an entire unit. Prior to that Kenpo in the Parker Lineage was utilizing "Tiger and Crane" exclusively along with the two short forms and single long form as the forms of "Kenpo." After that forms began to be created for competition more than anything else as Mr. Parker saw his Kenpo forms competitors consistently lose in tournaments in general and at his own IKC in particular. Thus he sought to liven up the forms to compete with the Japanese/Okinawan hard stylists, and the Chinese soft stylists by creating a "medium forms" division specifically for Kenpo and Kajukenbo. Although these later forms and sets contained some moves of validity, as a whole they were dysfunctional and unworkable containing many bio-mechanical and practical mistakes of execution and applications.
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    Default Re: 9th Degree demonstrating Short III with neutral bows...

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBunny View Post
    gotta say I don't agree.. there are a number of issues I have with the footwork, but the form itself.. I would .. simply.. why. What is the intention behind the choices made. Example.. twin destruction.. why the second double-punch, what purpose does it server? right after I feel that he has lost the placement of his opponent as his direction change is odd. Crossing talons has lost all control of the initial grab and at the end of it the right leg locking out with the heel on the floor pointing up... i've no idea what that is supposed to be but all I see is a potential broken leg.

    I understand people want to put their stamp on things.. people have different views and ways of doing them.. I am just worried about change for the sake of change without a clear understanding of why we do them.

    bunners
    The differences from the traditional form were not made for the sake of change or personal signature, though that is the result. From my experience with Mr. Rainey, the changes are to reflect his methods, philosophy, and approach to technique and fighting. As you can see by the way he moves, it is very articulate and thought out, nothing is arbitrary.
    Basics, the rest is bullshytery.

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    Default Re: 9th Degree demonstrating Short III with neutral bows...

    Quote Originally Posted by DRANKIN View Post
    The differences from the traditional form were not made for the sake of change or personal signature, though that is the result. From my experience with Mr. Rainey, the changes are to reflect his methods, philosophy, and approach to technique and fighting. As you can see by the way he moves, it is very articulate and thought out, nothing is arbitrary.
    Exactly the way it is supposed to be.
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    Default Re: 9th Degree demonstrating Short III with neutral bows...

    Quote Originally Posted by DRANKIN View Post
    The differences from the traditional form were not made for the sake of change or personal signature, though that is the result. From my experience with Mr. Rainey, the changes are to reflect his methods, philosophy, and approach to technique and fighting. As you can see by the way he moves, it is very articulate and thought out, nothing is arbitrary.
    Fair enough... but consider this.

    Spork Fu's variant on 5 sporks.

    Attack Roundhouse to the bunnies twitchy nose.

    1: Step into right N-Bow, Left reverse gripped spork to radial nerve, Right reversed grip spork to bicep, deflecting right continuation spork to attackers upper palet right modified forard bow to lef spork hook to shoulder.
    2: lunging nibble on the septum with Bunny-headbut...
    3:double bunny-hop with left spork hook to attackers left kidney spinnign him arround
    4:Right spork spooning out of the attackers brain at the lower skull...

    cover out..

    Now... with the ridiculousness of the above technique.. if it were done with great articulation and meeting the philosophy and methodology of Spork Fu Kenpo.. would you no longer consider it ridiculous and not questions the reasoning behind it?

    Uber-Bunny philosophical questions.
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    Default Re: 9th Degree demonstrating Short III with neutral bows...

    Quote Originally Posted by DRANKIN View Post
    instead of horse stances, except on Crashing Wings in this instance but it is meant to be there as well. This is a new version Mr Rainey is creating.


    Ok, so I’ve watched this a bunch of times and if the defining difference in how he is doing the form is using neutral bow instead of horse, then I don’t see much difference from how we did it in Tracy’s. What I am seeing is stance transitions within each technique, used for positioning and to generate power where the technique needs it. That is how we always did it, and that is what is appropriate.

    Perhaps you could describe what difference you feel this version has, with regard to the stances? Do other folks do it while holding the same stance and without those transitions? If so, that simply makes no sense to me because stance transitions are one of the most fundamental ways to create power in a technique.

    if he has otherwise altered the choreography of the forms, or changed what techniques are contained in the form, that is another matter upon which I will not comment. But regarding the stances in and of themselves, I see transitions, which is what I would expect to see.

    on a note of critique, he has a fair bit of what I call “foot chatter” where his feet tend to bounce and ride up, which undermines his stability and power.
    Michael


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    Default Re: 9th Degree demonstrating Short III with neutral bows...

    Quote Originally Posted by flying crane View Post
    on a note of critique, he has a fair bit of what I call “foot chatter” where his feet tend to bounce and ride up, which undermines his stability and power.
    Yep.
    I'm not loving what I am seeing. There seems to be quite a bit of heel up where I would not expect it.
    And, sometimes it appears he turns away from his strikes. We identify this as separating power.
    .
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    Default Re: 9th Degree demonstrating Short III with neutral bows...

    Quote Originally Posted by michaeledward View Post
    Yep.
    I'm not loving what I am seeing. There seems to be quite a bit of heel up where I would not expect it.
    And, sometimes it appears he turns away from his strikes. We identify this as separating power.
    .
    in my opinion, that kind of thing stems from being too focused on what the hands and upper body are doing, and forgetting to be mindful of how it needs to be connected to the feet and legs, which part of the work of effectively executing the technique each part of the body is responsible for. It can also be indicative of rushing through the form, thinking more about what comes next, or on getting to the end, and failing to focus on what is being done right now.
    Michael


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    Default Re: 9th Degree demonstrating Short III with neutral bows...

    Drankin,
    not sure why you post these videos, but might I recommend NOT posting them here anymore.... just my two cents.
    "The problem is not whether or not you like bad kenpo, the problem is recognizing whether or not your kenpo is bad!"
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    Default Re: 9th Degree demonstrating Short III with neutral bows...

    Quote Originally Posted by sumdumguy View Post
    Drankin,
    not sure why you post these videos, but might I recommend NOT posting them here anymore.... just my two cents.
    ??
    Michael


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    Default Re: 9th Degree demonstrating Short III with neutral bows...

    Quote Originally Posted by sumdumguy View Post
    Drankin,
    not sure why you post these videos, but might I recommend NOT posting them here anymore.... just my two cents.
    You should always be willing to post videos, take the views of others, consider them.... accept and or dispiss as you may.. but don't not put it out there for fear of critique.

    Thats just silly
    Bunny
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    Default Re: 9th Degree demonstrating Short III with neutral bows...

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBunny View Post
    You should always be willing to post videos, take the views of others, consider them.... accept and or dispiss as you may.. but don't not put it out there for fear of critique.

    Thats just super-duper silly
    Bunny
    Some people are a tad full of themselves and feel they're above criticism. Personally, I embrace criticism because sometimes despite how brilliant I think I am , people are right and present points of views that I may not have considered without their perspectives. Even if they're wrong it confirms my point of view in discussions. You get smarter by being open to criticism, not by being a know-it-all. Mr. Rainey is a smart man who embraced that philosophy ever since he was a purple belt, as far as I know, and is one of my former students. I teach that way and encourage discussion and criticism. If I can't answer the question satisfactorily then I'm not doing my job very well. Mr. Rainey still does that as well. Some stay away from here because they can't handle being told they might be wrong. "The mind is like a parachute, it only works when it opens." - Ed Parker Sr.
    Last edited by Doc; 11-07-2018 at 08:40 PM.
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    Default Re: 9th Degree demonstrating Short III with neutral bows...

    I need to point out here that as we age that particular weight-bearing joints can be affected and we are forced to adapt our performance. I was given permission to post this and as far as I'm concerned, we won't see much if any old school Kenpo still performed and recorded at this mastery by those from Mr. Rainey's generation. With all consideration and respect, I'm proud to be able to capture and share it.
    Basics, the rest is bullshytery.

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    Default Re: 9th Degree demonstrating Short III with neutral bows...

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    Some people are a tad full of themselves and feel they're above criticism. Personally, I embrace criticism because sometimes despite how brilliant I think I am ,Tru people are right and present points of views that I may not have considered without their perspectives. Even if they're wrong it confirms my point of view in discussions. You get smarter by being open to criticism, not by being a know-it-all. Mr. Rainey is a smart man who embraced that philosophy ever since he was a purple belt, as far as I know, and is one of my former students. I teach that way and encourage discussion and criticism. If I can't answer the question satisfactorily then I'm not doing my job very well. Mr. Rainey still does that as well. Some stay away from here because they can't handle being told they might be wrong. "The mind is like a parachute, it only works when it opens." - Ed Parker Sr.
    True this ^^
    I'll record and post my own interpretation of Mr. Rainey's Short III for peer scrutiny as I, also, appreciation discussion and critique. And I encourage the critics to demonstrate proper execution as well.
    Basics, the rest is bullshytery.

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