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Thread: Atacx gym checking the storm

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    Default Re: Atacx gym checking the storm

    Quote Originally Posted by HKphooey View Post
    I think the technique (not just your version) does not make sense. While I learned the technique and can make it work, I do not choose to go to the inside/live side of a club. Never made sense to me. If someone is coming at me with an overhead club, I am going to the outside (left side). Also, I never parry the stick/club. I parry/redirect the wrist/forarm attached to the club.
    Timing and environment force you to the inside.
    Also Mastering Tsing Tao.

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    Default Re: Atacx gym checking the storm

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoChanger View Post
    Timing and environment force you to the inside.
    Hey lay off man! He's the number one super guy.


    -Rob
    "All the time you're arguing over, is this kenpo, is that kenpo, you could be training!"

    -Senior Instructor Bobby Thomas

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    Default Re: Atacx gym checking the storm

    Quote Originally Posted by HKphooey View Post
    I think the technique (not just your version) does not make sense. While I learned the technique and can make it work, I do not choose to go to the inside/live side of a club. Never made sense to me. If someone is coming at me with an overhead club, I am going to the outside (left side). Also, I never parry the stick/club. I parry/redirect the wrist/forarm attached to the club.
    It makes sense if something is preventing you from going outside <left side>

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    Default Re: Atacx gym checking the storm

    guys you all make good points but remember...this is just part 1 of 5 videos addressing this matter. The rest are still loading up on YT. The 2nd one just loaded up and see how I already answered the concerns about inside/outside in this video? You'll see the other videos include live knife and stick swings...full power.Full speed.Feints and everything.The modes of entry and the primary attacks of your opponent are all addressed.Trust me guys.If after all 5 vids are up I missed something? Lemme know because I'd appreciate it and I'll instantly add that info to my expression.Keep bringing that sharp analysis and questions.And oh yeah I got that WU TANG in this video,lolol.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-56S9dX9hY

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    Default Re: Atacx gym checking the storm

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoChanger View Post
    Before you post, Checking the Storm is a club and not a stick defense, Thank you.

    I understand that what CTS is,thanks.I recognize that it actually extends beyond the club defense only as you seem to imply that is.It deals with basically any hand help weapon that can be swung in the planes of attack.Club stick chair knife crow bar trash can lid whatever.Doesn't that make more sense than to presume/assume that CTS is literally ONLY a club defense?

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    Default Re: Atacx gym checking the storm

    Quote Originally Posted by Thesemindz View Post
    Ok. I watched your first video and here's some things that leapt out at me.

    First, your main point of contention in this video is that the opponent won't attack you with a "stick" in this fashion. But I wasn't taught that this was a defense against a "stick." I was taught that the downward overhead strikes weren't "sticks" at all, they were "clubs." The only reason someone would lift an impact weapon up over their head and try to crash it down on top of you is because they needed the extra gravitational force to swing the weapon with sufficient striking force. With attacks like this, I think of things like heavy lead pipes, one handed baseball bat swings, canoe oars, and large awkward objects like mantrap chairs. That's why we teach getting out of the way first. The opponent isn't going to swipe at you with a "club" the same way he will with a "stick."

    Secondly, when you get to the inward and outward and inward/outward "stick" attacks, we do have techniques that address those types of attacks. Returning the Storm, Calming the Storm, and Securing the Storm all address those types of attacks. I know you're big on every technique applying to every attack, and that's fine, but that's not how I practice or teach.

    I see the techniques as snapshots of different possible engagement scenarios, with the ultimate goal not being using any one technique against everything, but rather internalizing everything in order to use kenpo in general against any attack. I see that as mostly just a methodological difference. As long as the outcome of effective self defense is the same, how we get there is more a matter of preference to me.

    I don't really have any problem with what you're doing here, but I think sometimes you're lashing out at something that is only a problem in your own mind. The videos are great, and I'm glad you're doing them. I've been showing some of them to my students as well. But many of the problems I see you talk about as being universal to kenpo only exist if the instructors are ignorant and the students are lazy. If they are actually working with and exploring their techniques, then they understand when and why and how a person would use an overhead club attack. And when and why and how they would not. For instance, you say the attacker wouldn't step through with the attack, which is true if he was swinging a "stick," but if he was swinging a "club," which is how I was taught this attack, he most likely would step through, because the heavier weight of the weapon would pull the rear side of his body forward and off his base and he would recover with a step through.

    Part of the problem is that all the impact weapon techniques have the same code name "Storm" and are usually practiced with the same kind of training weapons. This gives the impression that every "Storm" is the same. But in reality, these techniques address very different weapons and very different attacks, and are not all intended to be used against the kind of rattan fighting sticks we see so often in karate schools today. Sometimes the Storm is a snow flurry, quick and blinding. Sometimes it's a thunderstorm, heavy and deafening. Sometimes it's a tornado, swirling and destructive. Sometimes it's a hurricane powerful but slow moving. Thinking that every Storm is the same leads to the obvious conclusion that not every Storm technique works against a snow flurry. But the reality is they were never all intended to.

    At least that's what my instructor taught me.


    -Rob

    As usual,an EXCELLENT post,Rob! Here are my answers:

    First? (and this will become more manifest as more videos upload)...I don't assume that the weapon of choice in this attack is a "stick","club",etc. I look at the patterns of movement and generalize to the kinds of weapons that are employed in these attacks.I show the inside and outside entries because--if you're the defender and for some reason cannot run away--those are the only real world options you have insofar as entries go in order to nuetralize the attacker.I am using a heavy stick/light club in this video because most videos that I see from people using this tech employ a weapon very similar to the one that I am using here; but you will see me employ different weapons in this same series in order to make my point ironclad. I have 2 primary methods that I use (which are really one interlinked expression) to deal with these kinds of attacks.The first is my more "plain vanilla" version.It's the one you're seeing now.It's effective and hurts like hell,but I employ this one for newbies because it's my experience that they get this tech better than the more brutal version that I prefer because they don't mentally flinch at the damage being done...and most importantly? I'm able to ensure that they don't hurt each other while learning it.My STREET LETHAL variant includes ballistic knees and stomps,groin grabs in addition to the overhook,takedowns,arm lock,etc. that you see in these videos.

    Secondly you brought up an issue that I have long had disagreements with my martial arts friends and seniors about.Okay,say you DO have other techs like Returning the Storm yadda yadda.So what? That won't help the Yellow Belt who's facing the attack that Returning the Storm is supposed to diffuse but can't do so because he wasn't taught it. I try to teach right off top how to apply a tech from 360 degrees,seated,clinch,ground,multifight,escape,res cue and escape,etc.This gives what imho is true competency because you can do the tech from anywhere.One can learn Checking the Storm from ANY position,ANY angle...and should do so. Not doing so is akin to teaching a boxer to only jab at the head and only against a right hander and only while moving forward.If you can't jab from the inside or the outside,circling or moving forward or backward,if you can't jab ANY TARGET no matter if he's leftie or rightie and not just the head...YOU HAVEN'T LEARNED HOW TO JAB.Worse? You've taught yourself limiting concepts which will hamstring your martial growth and SD ABILITY.You think a jab is ONLY such and such...until you learn better.You teach yourself to mentally limit yourself and induce what amounts to a conceptual paralysis in ANY tech.To me? That approach,that paradigm is the equivalent of "I can only do such and such here but not there"...which will have the unlovely result of dramatically reducing the Kenpo arsenal you have in a SD encounter.If you're cool with that? That's okay...but that would be,as you pointed out,a matter of your personal preference as I am proving that one can do Checking the Storm from any position.Imho I would much rather arm my students with a tech that they can use in whatever scenario rather than give them a tech which they are instructed works only under specific limited circumstances when I know that they have a high probability of needing to learn the compliment to this tech to be even marginally functional in a SD scenario.

    Third? The problems that I see and am at variance with aren't universal to Kenpo...they're imho the result of a training paradigm which limits universal functionality.My main issue is that primary point: universal functionality.My younger brothers cousins and uncle (who is my Grandmaster) all have universally functional techs which are different than mine.I don't care if we have different expressions...in fact? I learn more that way.Do your thing just make sure that you train your techs so THEY'RE UNIVERSALLY FUNCTIONAL.Whatever situation,whatever scenario (short of stuff like earthquakes,nuclear attacks,etc.) your techs should be able to fend off attacks and counterattack effectively,efficiently and reliably. The point that you make regarding the stick,club,chair,etc. are all covered in the approaches that I utilized because I run the techs against those kinds of objects.Truth? SOMETIMES the attacker steps through.Most of the time they don't.The times they DO step through? They have a greater chance than normal of scoring a devastating blow on you,they know it,and they take the extra step to ensure success. My method of approach will nail you whether you step through or not.From what I understand--maybe I'm MISunderstanding here--the method that you promote is specific to the club or mantrap chair or whatever attack,and you would teach your students primarily that method and whatever lesson you learned from it at Yellow Belt rank...and NOT find a way to use Checking the Storm in the way that you teach Returning the Storm.In essence,you teach the overhead or single strike from whatever angle at best,and deliberately don't address the incredibly high likelihood that your students who may be called upon to use this tech won't face an opponent who will strike with the weapon more than once and/or with a backhanded swing too until a higher rank is reached.To me that's like teaching how to slip the jab but no other punch.What happens when your student slips the jab and the guy throws a cross? If your response is that if he slips the jab his counter will prevent any other blow? Okay.As you said,we differ there.Very respectfully I think that doing such a thing gives a prospective student a false sense of reality and confidence that (presumably) your experience in the real world has already confirmed is unlikely;therefore I think that we as Coaches should consider and plan for the very high likelihood that the prospective Yellow belt will not always resolve the matter in this way and should be armed with a tool that includes all of the basic responses in that scenario.

    Succinctly put? History already proves and my videos will prove again that the various Storm responses cover patterns of movements from hand held striking objects...whether edged or blunt or a combo,heavy or light,the various responses to a single or multiple attack are exactly the same...you just have to get in the quality reps against such weaponry.I swing a stick,a knife,a bat,a chair,a bottle and a staff at my students.We practice the disarm vs guns.All at YELLOW BELT.The result? Long before they get to blue belt,THEY ARE EXTREMELY SKILLED AT DEALING WITH WEAPON ATTACKS AND DEFENSES BECAUSE THEY HAVE LOGGED MORE THAN A HUNDREDS OF HOURS PRACTICING AGAINST THEM.They learn that they can counter pretty much any primary attack with the techs they've learned and then they learn that they can apply virtually all other techs against weapons too once they get their movements right.Because,as you stated:"Sometimes the Storm is a snow flurry, quick and blinding. Sometimes it's a thunderstorm, heavy and deafening. Sometimes it's a tornado, swirling and destructive. Sometimes it's a hurricane powerful but slow moving"...one should train against them all and show that our techs are universally applicable,without assuming that our students won't run into a thunderstorm so we only train them for a snow flurry...

    ...but as you said? That's just a preferential difference between us and I'm cool with that.I like your videos and your keen observations and respect you very much for them.
    Last edited by ATACX GYM; 07-12-2011 at 08:05 PM.

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    Default Re: Atacx gym checking the storm

    Quote Originally Posted by godlikeskill View Post
    It makes sense if something is preventing you from going outside <left side>
    Then go head on and use left umbrella block. Why reach in with right? I teach the ideal phase. I just would not use on the street.

    We can play what it's until we are blue in the face. What if the attacker is an arnis guy? Left hand will be in a guard position. What if he has a knife in his left hand?
    "You can't account for everything, but you should account for the reasonably probable. Unfortunately for the unknowledgeable, those never ending 'what if's' will choke your thought process to death with useless information." - Doc

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    Default Re: Atacx gym checking the storm

    Quote Originally Posted by godlikeskill View Post
    It makes sense if something is preventing you from going outside <left side>

    Exactly right.Cover all the basics and movement options,and apply your tech against them.You will see that it works.WELL.Try it when you're seated,in the clinch,grappling standing and/or ground.Try it against multifights,escape and rescue.THE SAME TECH WILL WORK IF YOU TRAIN IT FUNCTIONALLY.You will see me employ a variety of movements when I'm attacked live with weapons...BUT YOU WILL SEE ME DISPATCH MY OPPONENTS WITH THE SAME ATTACK OR COUNTERATTACK EVERY TIME.Due to my personal approach to functional weapons training.Apparently the old skool Moro Moro of the Phillipines felt the same way hundreds if not many hundreds of years before any of us were born,and they are probably the most feared and storied stick and blade masters of the Western hemisphere...

    And yes,I stress attacking the guy with the weapon too...

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    Default Re: Atacx gym checking the storm

    There sure are a ton of words to describe a simple rule.

    When defending against a club, do so when it is not clubbing. * you can change club to your weapon of choice
    ** If you change to weapon of choice the verb will be a little funky.

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    Default Re: Atacx gym checking the storm

    I think a modified five swords is a better defense option if I am going to the right. I am speaking as a martial artist not a Kenpo teacher.
    "You can't account for everything, but you should account for the reasonably probable. Unfortunately for the unknowledgeable, those never ending 'what if's' will choke your thought process to death with useless information." - Doc

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    Default Re: Atacx gym checking the storm

    Quote Originally Posted by HKphooey View Post
    Then go head on and use left umbrella block. Why reach in with right? I teach the ideal phase. I just would not use on the street.

    We can play what it's until we are blue in the face. What if the attacker is an arnis guy? Left hand will be in a guard position. What if he has a knife in his left hand?
    All of those scenarios are covered with my Checking the Storm.What if he's an arnis guy...so what? You attack me this,way I'll nuke you with CTS.If he has a knife in his left hand? I'll still nuetralize you with CTS...THE EXACT SAME TECH. I do it all the time. Idk what the "left umbrella block" is...you might be tongue in cheek with that.But I know that I can elude attacks,block parry and counter with reliable exacting destructive force because I keep practicing the same response against a multiplicity of attacks which inevitably wind up using the same arcs lines circles anyway.Once I get a grip on the weapon used ( a staff is longer than a knife,a big chair or table or crow bar would be differently employed than a garden hose...but all would use similar planes of attack) and the timing needed? I'm in the game.I'll beat you to death with CTS...EVERY SINGLE TIME.And very very reliably so.

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    Default Re: Atacx gym checking the storm

    Quote Originally Posted by HKphooey View Post
    I think a modified five swords is a better defense option if I am going to the right. I am speaking as a martial artist not a Kenpo teacher.
    Modified how?

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    Default Re: Atacx gym checking the storm

    Quote Originally Posted by ATACX GYM View Post
    Modified how?
    Slight upward block with the left.
    "You can't account for everything, but you should account for the reasonably probable. Unfortunately for the unknowledgeable, those never ending 'what if's' will choke your thought process to death with useless information." - Doc

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    Default Re: Atacx gym checking the storm

    Quote Originally Posted by ATACX GYM View Post
    All of those scenarios are covered with my Checking the Storm.What if he's an arnis guy...so what? You attack me this,way I'll nuke you with CTS.If he has a knife in his left hand? I'll still nuetralize you with CTS...THE EXACT SAME TECH. I do it all the time. Idk what the "left umbrella block" is...you might be tongue in cheek with that.But I know that I can elude attacks,block parry and counter with reliable exacting destructive force because I keep practicing the same response against a multiplicity of attacks which inevitably wind up using the same arcs lines circles anyway.Once I get a grip on the weapon used ( a staff is longer than a knife,a big chair or table or crow bar would be differently employed than a garden hose...but all would use similar planes of attack) and the timing needed? I'm in the game.I'll beat you to death with CTS...EVERY SINGLE TIME.And very very reliably so.
    Dude, I respect what you are doing. I do the same. I can post the bruises and scars from training. I am happy to hear you are so confident in you skills. That is awesome. But don't confuse arnis guys with guys who twirl wooden sticks at weekend seminars.
    "You can't account for everything, but you should account for the reasonably probable. Unfortunately for the unknowledgeable, those never ending 'what if's' will choke your thought process to death with useless information." - Doc

    "To hold and fill to overflowing is not as good as to stop in time. Sharpen a knife-edge to its very sharpest, and the edge will not last long." – Loa Tzu

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    Default Re: Atacx gym checking the storm

    Quote Originally Posted by HKphooey View Post
    Dude, I respect what you are doing. I do the same. I can post the bruises and scars from training. I am happy to hear you are so confident in you skills. That is awesome. But don't confuse arnis guys with guys who twirl wooden sticks at weekend seminars.
    Thanks for the advice man,lolol.My distant cousins are Moro Moro from the Phillipines.I've experienced first hand their kali,and I have known and trained with various members of The Dog Brothers for a decade or so now.I'm pretty comfy around kali guys.My good friend Brandon (one of the guys in my videos) is a fully certified JKD instructor who's mean with the stick and knife,and you'll see us work weapons in upcoming vids.

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    Default Re: Atacx gym checking the storm

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoChanger View Post
    Before you post, Checking the Storm is a club and not a stick defense, Thank you.
    BIG difference between a club or bludgeon and a stick. The technique is meant for a bludgeon.
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    Default Re: Atacx gym checking the storm

    Quote Originally Posted by nelson View Post
    Dear Doc,
    Your white belt kenpo brothers are all ears!
    Thank you sir!
    By definition:
    BLUDGEON – An object with significant enough mass that it's weight in conjunction with the inertia of its accelerated mass can be a weapon when used against another person. Commercial Kenpo “Storm” Techniques are often taught as “stick” defenses, which are not mechanically the same as an elongated or even short “bludgeons.”

    Bludgeons require specific mechanics to wield them, and in general, causes a trade off loss of benefit because of its heft, and inability to change directions once initiated.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

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    Default Re: Atacx gym checking the storm

    Quote Originally Posted by ATACX GYM View Post
    My STREET LETHAL variant includes ballistic knees and stomps,groin grabs in addition to the overhook,takedowns,arm lock,etc. that you see in these videos.
    Isn't that what kenpo is?!

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    Default Re: Atacx gym checking the storm

    Atacx i was reading Rob's youtube vid post and it made me think of how you always say that you pretty much don't teach the IP and im pretty sure (i could be wrong) that you don't go by any EPAK curriculum, So in dealing with a technique like CTS your say that your students put in lots of hours on all type of variants.

    Then why don't you just show them CTS, ETS, CALMING-TS, OTS, DTS, RTS, BTS, CAPTURING-TS, STS, CLIPPING-TS, CIRCLING-TS and Escape from the storm. That way you have completed that category

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    Default Re: Atacx gym checking the storm

    I guess one of my questions for you would be this Ras. If you're going to teach them how to defend against every possible attack with each individual technique, then why bother teaching more than one technique? If your Checking the Storm works against a club or a stick or a knife or a gun or a punch or a kick or a grab or a push or a chair or multiple opponents or hostage situations or takedowns or throws or locks or chokes, then why bother teaching anything except Checking the Storm?

    See, each of the individual techniques for me teaches different lessons. We do practice applying them to a variety of attacks, but they are each a unique snapshot of a possible combat encounter. So sure, they don't learn Returning the Storm until purple belt, but that doesn't mean they haven't learned anything before that.

    Take your "slipping the jab" example. The way I teach kenpo, they might learn to slip the jab in the first class, then slip the cross in the second class, then slip the hook in the third class, then slip the uppercut in the fourth class. I've broken it down into separate lessons, but they're really just learning the slip. It's really all "one technique," just like Checking the Storm and Five Swords and Broken Ram are really all just "one technique," just like defending the takedown and executing the takedown are just "one technique." But we are rephrasing the lesson in a variety of ways as a method of conveying it to the student. It's a way to disguise repetition.

    Ideally, a student can already defend against a club using the lessons they learned in Delayed Sword. Distance is your best friend. Defend and counter. Control the inside position. Attack the centerline. Strike vulnerable targets. Cancel your opponent's weapons. Cover target zones. Check your opponent's possible counters. Strike with the entire body. Make defenses hurt. Disrupt your opponent's base.

    Now, certainly if those lessons aren't demonstrated to the student, or if the students don't practice applying those lessons, or if the instructor doesn't even know those lessons are contained within the material in the first place, then sure, the students are screwed. But that always goes back to the instructors. If the students can't perform, the instructors are to blame. I make a regular point of demonstrating to my students that they already know the answers. I ask my students many more questions than they ask me, and I drag the answers out of them. Because after a while they really do know. They just want me to hand it to them on a silver platter. And I won't do that. I make them work.

    There's another side of this too. And it's a place where I'm not pleased with what I'm doing. I work at a commercial school. I'm required by the business model to give the students new techniques and patterns in every single class. Sometimes two at a time. I don't like this. I don't approve of this. If it were up to me we'd spend much more time on each individual technique, studying and exploring and practicing and training and discussing and dissecting before we ever moved on to the next one. But it isn't my school. So I do everything I can to still teach even when the techniques themselves are being disseminated at a pace that I feel is far to fast to develop real skill.

    I justify this by looking at my own journey. I went through more or less this kind of training until I got my black belt. Then things slowed down and we spent more time with each piece of the material. Then I got thrown out of my school and disowned by my Master and I had to learn on my own, at my own pace. Now I have a depth of understanding I didn't have with that material when I learned it one week and moved on to another next week. And I didn't exactly race to black belt anyway, I was a lousy student for several years before I started paying attention. But I haven't learned a truly "new" technique in over half a decade. And I'm a better karate practitioner for it.

    I'd like to spend more time developing depth of skill. Instead we teach our students a broad, but shallow, knowledge base. I try to work within that framework and teach depth anyway. I understand that the modern "customer" at a karate school expects to just move right along to black belt like it's no big deal. But I also know that if they stick around long enough, they'll start to get it. So I don't worry about whether or not they get it today, because if they fall in love with karate like I did, they'll get it some day twenty years from now.

    I don't try to teach every lesson every day. I teach one lesson today, and another lesson tomorrow, and another lesson the day after that. It's a process. But I also try to teach them techniques they can apply on the way back to their car after class. I understand that you want your students to be able to apply Checking the Storm against anything, anywhere, at any time. I don't care if my students ever apply Checking the Storm. I want them to learn from studying Checking the Storm so that they can apply their kenpo against anything, anywhere, at any time. Because I don't see the techniques as the lesson being taught. I see the techniques as signposts to important lessons to teach.

    Like I said. I see it as a methodological difference. But I'm happy with my method. I know it works. I'd love to get a chance to share some mat time with you though and learn from your method. It looks like it works too. And that's awesome. But there comes a point here where we're trying to compare apples to oranges. It's all fruit, and at the end of the day we're all full, but we each had a totally different dinner.


    -Rob
    "All the time you're arguing over, is this kenpo, is that kenpo, you could be training!"

    -Senior Instructor Bobby Thomas

  27. The Following User Says Thank You to Thesemindz For This Useful Post:

    godlikeskill (07-13-2011)

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